NEWS: Update on Kaleidescape Vault!

[Joe]

Cinelife, I think you've convinced me to consider projectors again. I have a Qualia 006 in the room, which still looks great, but I'm counting down the minutes until it fails (fatal design / mfg flaw sadly bricks the set after a while). You mention Jerry's projector - I have to ask, which model is it? Also, i assume you are watching k-scape blu ray material on the 14' screen. Does the image quality still hold up at that size?

 

[JerryL]

Hi Joe,
In my setup regular DVD looks very good and BR looks amazing. I attribute the DVD entirely to the Radiance XE video processor I am running. The only time DVD doesn't look good is if I watch HD first.

Its simply the best video processor I've ever seen- at least for use in your home. It scales cleanly and it has a lot of power in terms of noise reduction and image enhancement. For Blu Ray its not doing much but it does readjust the screen image for my 2.35 lens. It helps give sat HDTV broadcasts a little extra.

I am running a Runco VX-55d which was their top projector 3 years ago when I got it. At the time I felt they had the best projector for my application (I wanted 2.35 setup and I wanted it just work). The issue I take with Runco is their video processing is usually mediocre and I discovered the processor they were including with their projectors back then was in fact mediocre. So I got the Radiance.

I'm using an automated moving Schneider lens that Runco offers.

Im using a cinecurve Stewart screen with their normal material that has a 1.3 gain. I don't like the dark screen materials- to me they don't look right. This screen has automated side masks. You dont need masks above and below, the sides move in for 16x9 or 4x3.

I am very happy with this setup and I don't feel any urge of "upgradeitis" for a new PJ. The 55d is native 1080x1920. I think for me to move on I'd want something that has more pixel density and probably improvements in contrast ratio. Brightness is not an issue. Im running the bulb in consistency mode where it will increase the desired brightness as the bulb wears out so the image I see is always the same brightness (It uses more and more power) and Im running it with the aperture closed down which increases contrast ratio but robs light output. I think the PJ could be 8-9 steps more bright (with a decreased CR). When we first installed it, we ran it as a test, and it was not set to max but it was set pretty bright out of the box. In my room, with all the lights on- its bright in there- with a 1.3 gain screen- we all were stunned we thought it could compete with a plasma. And my throw distance is 30'.

My screen is like 56" high x 135" wide. I cannot overstate how nice it is to have a 2.35 setup in terms of making the experience "cinematic". I used to think my old 16x9 setup was great for sports but for movies, because the 2.35 image got shrunk down with the black bars, it felt like I was watching a large projection TV. With a 2.35 setup can be also thought of as 21x9 so it is really that dramatic.

I sit about 13' away from this and its a good seating distance. The PJ is in a projector room that has its own HVAC. It is not a very noisy projector but if it were in my room Im sure Id hear it.

If I were speccing the equipment today, Im not sure if Id go with Runco. I have been nothing but happy with the product and the support when I've needed it, and I think they still make nice projectors but there are other options that would be on my radar now. I don't have any experience with Sim but apparently they are a top contender. I like what I've seen from Digital Projection. I think the founder of Kaleidescape has one of their projectors.

 

[JerryL]

I should have said the DVD video quality is almost entirely due to my video processor: the fact that the K Player 5000 and now the M500 can output 480i over HDMI and do it cleanly is a big plus.

On other displays the processing in the new K players looks to be top notch and the ability to dial in the level of enhancement is welcome.

 

[cinelife]

Cinelife, I think you've convinced me to consider projectors again. I have a Qualia 006 in the room, which still looks great, but I'm counting down the minutes until it fails (fatal design / mfg flaw sadly bricks the set after a while). You mention Jerry's projector - I have to ask, which model is it? Also, i assume you are watching k-scape blu ray material on the 14' screen. Does the image quality still hold up at that size?

I watch both DVD and Blu-ray, but I'm moving away from DVD and at present I'm slowly replacing DVD content with BR content, which looks incredible on my screen. It is these larger sized screens that really show the value in BR, IMO. Unlike Jerry, I'm no longer using a VP in my system because of Sim2's excellent internal processing. (Disclaimer: If not already apparent by other posts, I (one of my companies) sells Sim2 products.) (We also sell the VP's Jerry mentioned.). I'm very, very, very satisfied with my setup and cannot see myself upgrading anytime soon (although I'll "probably" add the Lumis 3D when it is released). I see a lot of PJ's, and nothing I've seen has an image better than the Sim2 (some new high end units are it's equal, but I don't move horizontally). Hey, if Sim2 is good enough for Francis Ford Coppola, it's good enough for me!.



Jim

 

[JerryL]

Thats interesting Jim. Its that good? Are you doing any 2.35 with it?

Remember when K released the 1080 players and they said that the upscaling was so good that you wouldn't miss not having Blu Ray and I said you can't create resolution and that BR has so much more than just resolution superiority over DVD? Well... There are still things I would stick with DVD for but especially on a larger display, BR really shows its benefits. Its not just the resolution, its the superior color depth and contrast ratio. But- DVD when handled properly can still look good. And for some material thats all you will really need. Oh, I should say that on a 65" plasma I have Im using a 1080P mini player and the upscaled BR does look very good!

 

[cinelife]

Having been through a dozen PJ's over the past 5 years (went through 10 in the first 4 years alone) you could say I'm still looking for the holy grail of PJ's, but until I find it, the Sim2 is more than acceptable.

The processing is excellent, and certainly good enough to take the VP out of the mix. I can see the VP being of value with some content, perhaps older DVD's, but as you know, the more complex the setup the more potential for problems , especially when components all need to "talk" to each other. I always try and keep the setup as simple as possible. Of course VP's have value beyond just processing (color correction, AR control, etc.), so they still have a place in many systems.

I also like the addtional CR I'm getting from the HT5Ke and the ansi is particularly good (600+), which I couldn't get close to with other PJ's I looked at, including one at over $100K. Prior to about 2 years ago, even the high end units were averaging CR's of 2000. The Sim2 Lumis has a stated CR of 35,000 (and JVC has lower end units at 50,000; 75,000 and 100,000!! Of course there's a light output trade-off with these improved CR's). We've come a long way in 5 years. (Because of their overall performance, I've sold 7-8 Lumis PJ's in the past year.)

Yes (I'm doing 2.35), and the HT5K allows for several completely customizable AR's. I've got the usual preset (16:9, 2.35, 2.40), and I'm using the Isco III anamorphic lens with a Cineslide. Screen is native 2.37 (because of the A-lens), with 16:9 masking (I don't mask 4:3, because I don't watch that much and when I do I have a Sim2 preset AR to fill the 16:9 image.


Jim

 

[JerryL]

Thats great. I do the same thing with 4x3 but I have the masking in the profile so I can always use it. I was initially skeptical the masking would improve the experience but it does. FWIW, I have not had handshaking issues with the Radiance. It is an excellent, excellent unit.

 

[brodricj]

... FWIW, I have not had handshaking issues with the Radiance. It is an excellent, excellent unit.

I'm having issues with mine...when the M300 bitstreams through the Radiance to my Halcro processor the Halcro stays in digital PCM mode and the audio is all screwed up. Anyway, I think the Radiance is at least part of the problem, it's an on-going project trying to sort out what is causing which to do what that shouldn't...The Radiance was certainly masking the M300's EDID information when it was calling come to Sunnyvale.

 

[brodricj]

I should have said the DVD video quality is almost entirely due to my video processor: the fact that the K Player 5000 and now the M500 can output 480i over HDMI and do it cleanly is a big plus.

The KP5000 has a timing error at least with 576i over HDMI that can cause problems with the Radiance. Lumagen are aware of it and suggested changing the KP5000 to output 480p/576p and using the re-interlace feature of the Radiance. This works well, much much better than 576i. I don't think the problem presents with 480i, it used to but K fixed it in the player. Unfortunately the fix didn't extend to 576i content. Or so I've been told.

The 576i bug is not in the M300, not sure if it was ever in the KP6000, but it most certainly still is in the KP5000. When manifested the picture is unwatchable because there is extensive tearing in the image between odd and even frames.

I have a 90inch screen and it's very difficult to pick a difference in picture quality between DVD with Radiance processing and BR. To my mind they are virtually the same image quality.

 

[cinelife]

........I have a 90inch screen and it's very difficult to pick a difference in picture quality between DVD with Radiance processing and BR. To my mind they are virtually the same image quality.

Then you're lucky, you can save all that "upgrade to BR" money and stick with DVD!


Jim

 

[JerryL]

There are no timing issues with 480i.

As to EDID, you could try that Gefen splitter Im using.

http://www.gefen.com/gefentoolbox/gtbproduct.jsp?prod_id=9605

 

[Joe]

Jerry / Jim -

Very interesting discussion about PJs and VPs! I am processing all of this as I ponder improvements to my own system. Right now, my racks support video and audio distribution throughout the house. The 5805 drives two main viewing areas - a 7.1 system with Qualia 006 70" display and a 3.1 system with a 42" panny. Another denon drives a 5.1 system with a 50" Pio Elite. I like the idea of replacing or augmenting the Qualia viewing area with a PJ (I like the sim2 product you guys have been mentioning and will have to look into pricing - I'm *sure* its up there!). But that viewing area is in a 20'x20' room and i wonder how large a screen that can support before thing get silly. Also, I'm concerned about how loud these PJs are. It would be mounted in the ceiling of that 20'x'20' room.

I mentioned the other viewing areas because I would like any video processing to provide benefits across all of thoses viewing areas. So, i would think a dedicated VP might be a better solution for me, no? But then, at 42", 50" or even 70" (if I stayed with the Qualia), would something like a Lumagen really produce demonstrably better video vs the Denon receivers, or would it just be overkill?

 

[cinelife]

Jerry / Jim -

Very interesting discussion about PJs and VPs! I am processing all of this as I ponder improvements to my own system. Right now, my racks support video and audio distribution throughout the house. The 5805 drives two main viewing areas - a 7.1 system with Qualia 006 70" display and a 3.1 system with a 42" panny. Another denon drives a 5.1 system with a 50" Pio Elite. I like the idea of replacing or augmenting the Qualia viewing area with a PJ (I like the sim2 product you guys have been mentioning and will have to look into pricing - I'm *sure* its up there!). But that viewing area is in a 20'x20' room and i wonder how large a screen that can support before thing get silly. Also, I'm concerned about how loud these PJs are. It would be mounted in the ceiling of that 20'x'20' room.

I mentioned the other viewing areas because I would like any video processing to provide benefits across all of thoses viewing areas. So, i would think a dedicated VP might be a better solution for me, no? But then, at 42", 50" or even 70" (if I stayed with the Qualia), would something like a Lumagen really produce demonstrably better video vs the Denon receivers, or would it just be overkill?

Hi Joe, the 20' x 20' room is plenty big enough to include a good sized screen and still have the proper seating area distances for front projection. It's difficult to comment on an exact size without seeing the room because many room factors come into play when deciding a size (wall space, speaker placement, ambient light, desired seating distance, etc.).

VP's are very useful for some material and displays, less so for others, and not all VP's perform at the same level. Like Jerry, I'm partial to Lumi's Radiance line. Considered by many to be the best available. (Disclaimer: We sell these VPs). Their impact on the image may be dramatic, or hardly noticeable depending on the source material and the display. The Elites do a great job on their own (I've a bunch throughtout my home as well (101FD, 141's and 151's), but they can only work with what they are fed, so if the source is bad (could be the content, could be the delivery), the image is compromised and a VP should help. Difficult to recommend without seeing your setup, but Jerry has a lot of experience with this as well, so I'm sure he'll comment.


Jim

 

[JerryL]

Joe,
Im just a hobbiest. So take my comments from someone whose been following this stuff for a long time but by no means am I truly an expert. My rule of thumb to get a cinematic experience is take the height of the screen and multiply it by 3.4x- or you could just work it backward and say whats your seating distance and divide that by 3.4 and then get a screen height and go from there. In my case I sit about 15' from my screen in my front row. My screen is 56" high. So 56x3.4= 190.4" / 12 = 15.89' So its close.

My opinion when it comes to video is make it as big as you can and as bright as you can. And if you can get into a 2.35 (CIH (constant image height) setup, I highly highly highly recommend it. The experience is so much more cinematic.

Heres a solid article:

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/2798

My screen is a 2.35 setup so the width is something like 135". I bet your room could support something similar because my room dimensions are like 18' wide x 30' long. The question would be the extra space - how many rows of seating do you have? I have two.

As to noise- the only way to know is to check out the PJs in question. I haven't spent time with the new projectors but what I am told is they are more quiet than ever.

The Radiance is terrific. My opinion is its simply the best. Some of the others might have slightly easier to navigate menus but thats about the only issue with it and because its so powerful I really can't knock the menus. It has two outputs and I believe you can actually have them drive different resolutions if you want. I have them both set to the same resolution.

 

[brodricj]

...The Radiance is terrific...It has two outputs and I believe you can actually have them drive different resolutions if you want...

...different resolutions and independent output calibrations. Although I'm unsure whether OUTPUT1 and OUTPUT2 can drive their respective displays at different resolutions at the same time (the block diagram for the Radiance would suggest you can't).

 

[brodricj]

Have I understood this correctly:

1. KVAULT10 (or MDV) is not BR disc region specific and can not hold DVD or CD.
2. An M300-A/B connected to a KVAULT10 can import any region BR disc in the vault.
3. An M500-A/B can only read the specific region disc in its tray, but it can import any disc loaded in a vault that's attached to it.
4. KVAULT30 (or IDV) will be region specific, and will only read/import BR discs of its type, or the types of other M-Class players installed in the same group (meaning a KVAULT30-A can import -B content if there is an M300-B in the same group). In addition KVAULT30 will also be able to read/import all region DVD's, but with only four region changes permitted (i.e in the same way as the KPLAYERS).

 

[dlittle]

Screen width and seating distance

Hi

With regard to screen size and seating distance away from the screen, when I built my home theater, I actually went to my local cineplex and sat in various rows to get an idea of how wide I wanted the screen to look. Once I was sure of what I liked, I went to my dealer's show room, got out a tape measure, measured the width of the screen, and then moved the chair progressively further away from the screen to reproduce what I liked. I personally found that to reproduce what I liked at the local cineplex required that the viewing angle (the angle between the imaginary lines drawn from the center of your head to each edge of the screen) was 40 degrees. The minimum angle I liked was 35 degrees. The experts commonly cite 30 degrees. Also, what I preferred in the showroom depended on the resolution of the source - high definition was extremely pleasing at 40 degrees, whereas lower resolution up-sampled DVD's were borderline at 40 degrees and better at 35 degrees.

So, working backwards with trigonometry, you can calculate either the screen width that you would prefer for a given seating distance, or the seating distance you would prefer for a given screen width. The equations are as follows:

sin (Viewing Angle degrees / 2) = 1/2 * Screen Width / Seating Distance

Seating Distance = 1/2 * Screen Width / sin (Viewing Angle degrees / 2)

Screen Width = 2 * Seating Distance * sin (Viewing Angle degrees / 2)


So, for my personal preferences above, for high definition, I prefer a 40 degree viewing angle, which would calculate out to:

Seating Distance = 1.462 * Screen Width

Screen Width = Seating Distance / 1.462


If I were designing a room optimized for DVD sources, I would go 35 degrees, which would make the equations:

Seating Distance = 1.663 * Screen Width

Screen Width = Seating Distance / 1.663


If you go with the industry standard of 30 degree viewing angle, the equations are:

Seating Distance = 1.932 * Screen Width

Screen Width = Seating Distance / 1.932


So if I had a 7 foot wide screen, I would set optimal seating distance as follows:

for 40 degrees --> 10 feet away from the screen
for 35 degrees --> 11 - 1/2 feet away from the screen
for 30 degrees --> 13 - 1/2 feet away from the screen


Likewise, if I was placing my seats 10 feet away from the screen, then I would purchase a screen with the following width:

for 40 degrees --> 80 inch wide screen
for 35 degrees --> 6 foot wide screen
for 30 degrees --> 5 foot wide screen

Dave Little

 

[Mr.Poindexter]

20x20 is plenty large for a theater. My room is 22x25' in the viewing room and I have my speakers behind the screen, so the actual room part is 23x22 and as you can see below, it is very spacious even with 2 rows of large recliners.

I use a 150" wide screen as well and don't feel like it is too big.

 

[Croptop]

Have I understood this correctly:

1. KVAULT10 (or MDV) is not BR disc region specific and can not hold DVD or CD.

The MDV will import BDs from any region. It will reject all DVDs and CDs.

2. An M300-A/B connected to a KVAULT10 can import any region BR disc in the vault.

Correct. But if you only have the one M-class player, then you will only be able to play discs from the region that matches the player.

3. An M500-A/B can only read the specific region disc in its tray, but it can import any disc loaded in a vault that's attached to it.

You can import any region BD in the M500 tray but you can only play discs that match the player's region code.

 

[cinelife]

Great looking setup Mike, and certainly demonstrates what can be done with enough space!


Jim