I just hooked up a Lumagen 4242 to my system and I wholeheartedly agree with the above. I wish that I had added this years ago. The improvement in picture quality is amazing. The only consolation is that when I bought my projector HDR had just been introduced and the Lumagen wouldn't have made the difference it does now.I have a JVC RS540 and while it does HDR, it doesn't have its own DTM capabilities. I was supplementing it with a Panny UB420.
When I joined the Kscape crew last year, I was shocked to see that all HDR content was so dim that it couldn't be watched. I purchased a Lumagen and linked up with @KDeering to dial it in as I didn't feel like doing it myself.
The results were like getting a whole new projector!
The HDR content through the Panny UB420 couldn't get as vivid since the DTM settings were limited for that specific model. Futhermore, I no longer needed my external Darbee DVP-5000S for 1080p content. Plus my Darbee processing was now applied to all inputs not just the single input that was covered by the standalone model.
Lesson learned in this scenario was that I should've purchased a Lumagen or MadEnvy much earlier in the life of my theater room.
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Help me understand real benefit of Lumagen or MadVR
- Thread starter josh
- Start date
This is a great discussion, thanks all for the education!
For those of us new to this, I'm still just wondering how much tweaking and setting of parameters you guys are needing to do with MadVR or Lumagens once you have them in the signal path.
Do you have to know (or go look up) certain specs of the movie (frame rate, resolution, aspect ratio, HDR/SDR, DV/not, colorspace, codec...) and then make changes to your video processor based on those things?
Then after you get the enhancer hardware set right, are there times you now have to ALSO go into Kaleidescape settings and/or your projector/screen settings and tweak those as well given the new changes you made to the processor? Or is it really something that is just automatic, and a set-it-and-forget-it type of device?
I just hate to add something else that means I'm fiddling with complex settings after picking a movie and before hitting "play".
I can see my wife and I just wanting to enjoy a movie and telling her "OK, just a minute... need to look up some specs on that movie file... ok, now have to set some options on the processor" then "OK, almost there... now I have to adjust some settings on this other device... just another minute sweetie..." and realizing she's already left and has gone up to the bedroom to just pick something on AppleTV out of frustration.
For those of us new to this, I'm still just wondering how much tweaking and setting of parameters you guys are needing to do with MadVR or Lumagens once you have them in the signal path.
Do you have to know (or go look up) certain specs of the movie (frame rate, resolution, aspect ratio, HDR/SDR, DV/not, colorspace, codec...) and then make changes to your video processor based on those things?
Then after you get the enhancer hardware set right, are there times you now have to ALSO go into Kaleidescape settings and/or your projector/screen settings and tweak those as well given the new changes you made to the processor? Or is it really something that is just automatic, and a set-it-and-forget-it type of device?
I just hate to add something else that means I'm fiddling with complex settings after picking a movie and before hitting "play".
I can see my wife and I just wanting to enjoy a movie and telling her "OK, just a minute... need to look up some specs on that movie file... ok, now have to set some options on the processor" then "OK, almost there... now I have to adjust some settings on this other device... just another minute sweetie..." and realizing she's already left and has gone up to the bedroom to just pick something on AppleTV out of frustration.
I can only speak for madVR Envy as we´ve done a lot of installations with it, no Lumagen experience.
In addition, the Envy setup is pretty straight forward and can be done in a few minutes. Then you have a really good setup that can capture 80% of "daily business". The Envy (i´m sure the Lumagen as well) can do a lot of mode switching internally, so depending on the content and it´s characterics (as you mentioned things like frame rate, SDR/HDR, HD/4K, colorspace, etc.) it can switch settings to best suit the content. But it can also feed information to an automation system that can then do additional magic like switching settings on a projector or masking screen.
With the latest firmware update of the Envy, the Envy can even directly connect to AVRs, projectors and masking system to control them directly.
But the main idea between both the Envy and the Lumagen is that they are designed to be transparent in the chain and do their job in the background without the need of any user interaction. But of course, it´s another device in the chain making the whole installation even more complex than it is already.
With the Lumagen, once it was setup, I've made pretty much zero changes, unless something else in the system changes and affects the overall nits on screen (higher gain screen, new lamp, etc.). I barely have Lumagen functionality programmed into my universal. It's set through Home Assistant to power on when it senses my projector powering up, and vice versa for power down.
I recently acquired a MadVr envy core and I’d say it makes things easier for my family to use the home theater if I am not home. I have a cinescope screen (2:35:1) ratio. Which I enjoy because most movies are 2:40. The aspect ratio management automatically fills the screen to the right size because of the profiles that are setup in the envy. It automatically detects the ratio (2:0,16:9, 2:40) and makes the change instantly. So there is no fiddling around with the projector remote to find the right preprogrammed aspect ratio that I set up. I “heard” the aspect ratio management function in these video processors may not be as beneficial if you have a 16:9 screen, but in my case it makes it an even more seamless experience when someone wants to turn a movie on and go.
Furnace Inferno
Well-known member
The main benefit of both systems is that they are set and forget. I know with the Lumagen when my calibrator set it up rather than doing the calibration on the projector it’s all done on the 3D LUT of the Lumagen, the reason for this being it’s linear and much more accurate than the ones built into projectors. DTM is set and forget compared to any other projector system too so you never have to fiddle with settings and it’s just right.
Yes it’s another thing in the chain but the Lumagen at least reduces jitter and allows you to use DTM with any source and still have low input lag even ignoring its other benefits.
Yes it’s another thing in the chain but the Lumagen at least reduces jitter and allows you to use DTM with any source and still have low input lag even ignoring its other benefits.
This is also available in the Envy, but I have yet to see any objective demonstrations of its benefit vs the regular HDR10 DTM provided by either Envy or Lumagen. I'm open to their being some benefit, but based on what I have read about it (quite a bit of variability in terms of how this is implemented from one source device to another, with it making things worse in some scenarios), I haven't been motivated to even give it a try.
If you've seen anything that shows improvements objectively (not just subjectively, because our perceptions are so easily fooled in so many ways), I would be interested in seeing it.
Yep. The only real benefit i´ve seen is with LLDV is, that some streaming providers have additional (better) audio tracks only available with the DV version of the stream.
Could be a whole different discussion - especially if you throw the DV P7 FEL into the mix which the K new V Player cannot do - my guess is that the Version 2 of the V will have this capability (although K has vehemently protected its use of DV P 5 MEL being same as DV P7 FEL) because you need dual core chips (like some amologic) to process the two layers of video available in P7 FEL.
Gotta have the right equipment (DV Player Media and Projector with Lumagen/Envy) and you can see the benefits and objectively test the DV P7 FEL layer using a widely available test file from Mortal Engines. If you like the director intended 'Grain' in your movies and it appears using DV P7 FEL and the right equipment - that is a objective test in my experience.
With my madVR, it's pretty much set-it-and-forget-it. When I first got it, I did some setup in the first couple of days to get it just right for me. Then, the next time I messed with the settings was when I replaced my projector's bulb. I didn't mess with it again until over a year later when I upgraded to a laser projector. And then, it was just minor changes to account for my new projector's increasedr brightness and very slight changes to the alignment of my new projector relative to the old projector.
Some people love to tweak, and the madVR gives plenty of opportunities for tweaking, but in my experience, once you've found what you like, there's very little need to make changes later. Before I got the madVR, I was always messing with the DTM of the JVC depending on the source material. With the madVR, no need to mess with that.
I would echo that. Mine was purchased and setup at the same time as the laser projector by a specialist. The disadvantage with this is that it's a mystery like a black box to me how it works and so I can't tinker with it - this ironically is the best thing about it because I would never have stopped tinkering and wouldn't ever be convinced that I was on the right settings. Instead I just admire the picture and watch the movie. Made an enormous difference for us here.
Same with the Lumagen. I keep seeing these people tweaking every little virtual knob, like with the LLDV implementation and just wonder why. It looks great, it removes the need for adjusting all kinds of stuff every time you push play, why would you add all that back? My goal is to make watching movies better, and that means fewer things to mess with.
The enemy of good is better...
Yeah. It´s just different kind of people. For some people, tweaking is (seems to be) the main objective of the hobby, for others it´s watching movies. The good news is: you can have both with both devices.
I just installed and set up my Lumagen yesterday, based on help and support from Thrillcat and Kris. My setup is a JVC NZ7 and a 2.35:1 screen. My Lumagen has 6 inputs, and I've set it up to do the video switching for my 4 sources. I relied on Lumagen CEO Jim Peterson's PowerPoint-style slide deck on the Lumagen website, where he walks you through each quick setup step in a large font: http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Radiance_Pro_Setup_Training_071323.pdf It was easy.
I experienced two gasps in setting it up. First when it turned on and passed through the signal from my K and AppleTV. Both sources looked slightly sharper and more vibrant, I literally couldn't believe my eyes. I played Skeleton Crew from Disney+ and Top Gun Maverick from K. Both looked better than before.
Then I had the second gasp. Skeleton Crew automatically switched aspect ratios between the 16:9 menu and the 2.35:1 show itself. I no longer have to push buttons or hover over the family to make sure they're getting it right. It's amazing.
Nice improvements include faster switching between sources and faster playback between different file types in Plex playlists. Also the video and audio for movies and shows start at the same time, instead of audio starting slightly later. It wasn't a lip sync problem, just missing the first couple of notes of fanfare. Now it's lined up together. A welcome relief on K is fixing AR at 2.35:1 with a single button press for movies with changing AR like Top Gun Maverick.
I realized, and I shared this with Thrillcat, that by adding the Lumagen, I feel that the room has fully crossed the threshold into being a home cinema, and not something that occasionally pulls you back into the TV and consumer electronics corner.
I experienced two gasps in setting it up. First when it turned on and passed through the signal from my K and AppleTV. Both sources looked slightly sharper and more vibrant, I literally couldn't believe my eyes. I played Skeleton Crew from Disney+ and Top Gun Maverick from K. Both looked better than before.
Then I had the second gasp. Skeleton Crew automatically switched aspect ratios between the 16:9 menu and the 2.35:1 show itself. I no longer have to push buttons or hover over the family to make sure they're getting it right. It's amazing.
Nice improvements include faster switching between sources and faster playback between different file types in Plex playlists. Also the video and audio for movies and shows start at the same time, instead of audio starting slightly later. It wasn't a lip sync problem, just missing the first couple of notes of fanfare. Now it's lined up together. A welcome relief on K is fixing AR at 2.35:1 with a single button press for movies with changing AR like Top Gun Maverick.
I realized, and I shared this with Thrillcat, that by adding the Lumagen, I feel that the room has fully crossed the threshold into being a home cinema, and not something that occasionally pulls you back into the TV and consumer electronics corner.
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Pointless for TVs, but I'll play Devil's Advocate and provide the use case: You bought a $500 blue-light special TV that has poor video processing and want to address it with a $5,000 video processor. Or spend $2,500 on a TV with proper processing.
With cheaper TVs becoming the norm, and video processing requiring investment, Dolby is seeking to address all of this with Dolby Vision 2 (and Samsung with their competitor). Basically DV2 is a series of video processing capabilities that a company like HiSense or TCL can get without all of the effort. Of course, this depends on content being remastered, but I'm sure they'll figure a way around that as well. LG is still going their own way, basically directly addressing all of the things DV2 is attempting but without requiring changes to source.
The use case with a TV isn't nearly the same as with a projector, where the benefits are pretty clear cut. But as @LoveCinema indicated, a lot will depend on the specific TV. If it's not especially bright in terms of maximum nits, without sophisticated processing, it would likely benefit from the Envy's tone mapping, similar to how a projector benefits.
But if it is a high-end TV, with perhaps close to 2000 peak nits, the need for tone mapping isn't nearly the same. There is content mastered to 4,000 or 10,000 nits, so good tone mapping would still be needed. But you'd have to evaluate how a given TV deals with those more challenging movies.
There is also Non Linear Stretch, which can be used to reduce or eliminate the black bars that occur whenever the content's aspect ratio isn't 16:9. This does involve varying degrees of cropping, stretching, and compression, and people have legitimately different opinions on this. Some use it and love it, others either don't use it, or use it in a more limited fashion.
So in working with people, I am much more cautious and conservative in recommending an Envy for use with a TV, but I have had a number of people who use it and love it. A lot will depend on the capabilities of the TV and the preferences of the user.