Still, a lot of people like it. If it´s not for you, your welcome. But framing a feature a video processor has like it would be a disadvantage seems odd to me.
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Help me understand real benefit of Lumagen or MadVR
- Thread starter josh
- Start date
No feature, whether it's good or not, used or not, is a disadvantage and I didn't frame it that way. I'm not a dealer for one or the other, as you obviously are. I'm a customer, and I chose the product that fit my price point and had the features I need/want. I could've spent more and gotten more features by going with the MadVR, but they are features that were not on my list of 'must have'. If those features are something a customer wants, then by all means buy the processor that has them.
MotionAI = Smoothing = Soap Opera Effect. If I was forced to choose one that could not be turned off, I'd choose MotionAI.
rafaelsmith
Well-known member
I have never cared for any version or variety of "smoothing".
I've been using various settings of MotionAI these last months, and I have to admit that I think I like leaving it on, but not to extreme levels. It also requires having a projector that can do 120 Hz because I feel I noticed skipping/pacing using it at 60 Hz on my former NX7. My wife on the other hand isn't a fan. I had been silently running with it on for a few movies, and she made a comment about it without being told or asked. I think it really can stabilize and clean up the image in motion without looking fake to me.
I consult and advise with a lot of folks that ask if a video processor is "worth it". I contend that the more the processor does, the more value it has. So, I usually walk through these questions.
* Do you have a projector?
* Do you have a projector that lacks dynamic tone mapping for HDR?
* Do you have a scope screen?
* Do you have a lens with noticeable barrel distortion?
If you are "yes" to all of those questions, then the video processor is doing more for you and has more value. Those questions encompass the core benefits of a processor doing aspect management, HDR processing, and so on.
Whether you engage motion features, NLS, and the like are individual choices. I'm generally not a fan of NLS, but as said, I'm coming around to leaving MotionAI on.
I consult and advise with a lot of folks that ask if a video processor is "worth it". I contend that the more the processor does, the more value it has. So, I usually walk through these questions.
* Do you have a projector?
* Do you have a projector that lacks dynamic tone mapping for HDR?
* Do you have a scope screen?
* Do you have a lens with noticeable barrel distortion?
If you are "yes" to all of those questions, then the video processor is doing more for you and has more value. Those questions encompass the core benefits of a processor doing aspect management, HDR processing, and so on.
Whether you engage motion features, NLS, and the like are individual choices. I'm generally not a fan of NLS, but as said, I'm coming around to leaving MotionAI on.
@thrillcat I just found your wording "the MadVR's soap opera effect, er., excuse me, their MotionAI™ "feature", and defeat any stretching they may have had enabled" disrespectful. If that wasn´t your intention, then i´m totally fine with your personal opinion (which i partly share), of course. 
Using a projector that supports 48hz is even better. Look is better and it costs less resources.
I´ll add "Do you have a curved screen to the list".
Using a projector that supports 48hz is even better. Look is better and it costs less resources.
I´ll add "Do you have a curved screen to the list".
I've heard that about the 48 Hz too. I don't think JVC does it though. The NZ900 lists the following.
"480p, 576p, 720p 60/50, 1080i 60/ 50, 1080p 120/ 100/ 60/ 50/ 30/ 25/ 24, 3840 x 2160p 120/ 100/ 60/ 50/ 30/ 25/ 24, 4096 x 2160p 120/ 100/ 60/ 50/ 30/ 25/ 24, 7680 x 4320p 60/ 50/ 30/25 /24"
No, the JVC can´t, unfortunately. Christie and Barco can. And i´ve learned the new Sony´s can do it as well. The madVR team has approached JVC a while ago to add 48hz to the list of supported frame rates - perhaps it´s just a firmware update.
That would be cool to see 48 Hz added in firmware by JVC.
I've gotten really used to gaming on PC at frame rates up to 120, running most games probably 90 - 120 with VRR. I wonder if that experience is part of why I feel more positive about MotionAI. I'm curious if I'll notice going back to 60 when I experiment with the PS5 Pro coming up and comparing the experience to PC.
I've gotten really used to gaming on PC at frame rates up to 120, running most games probably 90 - 120 with VRR. I wonder if that experience is part of why I feel more positive about MotionAI. I'm curious if I'll notice going back to 60 when I experiment with the PS5 Pro coming up and comparing the experience to PC.
That was more sarcasm at their rebranding of the soap opera effect than claiming it was a disadvantage.@thrillcat I just found your wording "the MadVR's soap opera effect, er., excuse me, their MotionAI™ "feature", and defeat any stretching they may have had enabled" disrespectful. If that wasn´t your intention, then i´m totally fine with your personal opinion (which i partly share), of course.
To another note from @Techthusiasm A-lens barrel distortion is another great reason for looking into a video processor, and one that Lumagen does not yet address.
Furnace Inferno
Well-known member
Unless you care about accuracy the differences between the two are not something I would say the average person just enjoying a great picture needs care about. However if you are using the video processor to calibrate with a 3D LUT, that in itself is far more accurate than the onboard system and then you also get better DTM on top which in my experience then gives you the correct scene brightness rather than sometimes being too dim but ultimately you’d never really know if you weren’t comparing. You’d just think something was purposely dimmed, I mean they use loads of filters and post-processing anyway so how would you know for sure?!I have been tempted over the years to look into a video processor but everytime I have backed down since I like the JVC DTM and my screen is 16x9...I just cannot justify the high cost for something I might actually not even notice making much if any difference. I once went to a trade show and got to see a comparison using NX7 between the native DTM and an Envy and yes I could tell a difference but to be honest...I was not entirely sure that difference was "better" ...just different... Had no idea which of the two if any were more "accurate".
I would have to be blown away by a night and day difference to justify the cost.
That said, few years ago I was saying the same thing about K...and here I am
Before I moved to a JVC NZ8/Lumagen combo I ran an Epson LS10500 which has no DTM, now I’m sure there was clipping in the Auto Bright Mode I used for HDR and certainly some scenes looked a lot dimmer than now but in isolation it still looked great.
It’s very easy to get caught up in differences which some people are very passionate about because of their knowledge and experience but I’d argue even a lot of enthusiasts don’t really know or care and just go by preference.
If you want accurate, consistent and the best picture in SDR and HDR on a projector then a video processor can’t be beat but doesn’t mean wit doesn’t still look great without it.
I game on my OLED monitor with 144Hz VRR but I really don’t find it anywhere near the same as any form of motion smoothing I’ve ever seen including DLSS3 which I’m guess is the same system MadVR are using given they use Nvidia GPUs. I certainly like the camera pans being cleared up as everything going blurry is a little annoying but equally a good director should know better than to try and show anything they want you to focus on when they know it will blur @24fps.
Outside of that though the way it looks when people move is just flat out wrong and I actually quite enjoy Gemini Man @60fps which I know some people hate but motion interpolation just looks like people aren’t moving right the best way I can describe it is it looking like movements are in fast forward and sped up rather than normal movements.
I am however forced to use it with 3D because I find blur completely breaks down the 3D effect for me at least as I can’t focus!
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2023
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Do you do any other processing with 3D? Curious if there's any other advantages there, and how much a processor can do and still send a 3D Frame Packed signal that will be acceptable to a projector.
Furnace Inferno
Well-known member
No, only the lowest level of motion smoothing to clean up the blurring. I can’t remember if laser dimming is still usable or not but less of an issue when you have the glasses dimming things.
I think 3D really needed to be 48fps like some of the cinema screenings.
I've got a Sony VPL-5000ES, 16:9 screen, ATV and Panny UB-9000. Next year I plan to add a motorized masking screen. Since I'm jumping into the K universe, I've been considering getting a Lumagen. When I see posts with still images comparing with/without various video processed images 80% of the time I find myself struggling to see these "overwhelming" differences. Besides controlling a new screen, am I setting myself up for disappointment adding a video processor? Will it improve my Kaleidescape and AppleTV images significantly?
The benefit for HDR content is clear-cut, in my opinion. I have been a JVC guy, which is generally acknowledged to have the best DTM of any projector, but I was never satisfied with its HDR handling before I got the Envy. I took these image pairs, and the difference there is, to my eye at least, fairly obvious. These (except the GOT pair) were taken with a Canon 1D Mark IV (professional grade DSLR), with Raw Format, Manual Exposure, and identical processing in Photoshop, so that they accurately represent what was seen to the natural eye in my theater.
Harry Potter
1917
The Shallows
Game of Thrones
Now not every scene will show this degree of difference. If a given scene is well lit, with no especially deep shadows, or very bright highlights, both the Sony or JVC will handle these fairly well without the Envy. But as soon as you encounter more challenging darker or brighter scenes, the improvement with the Envy's tone mapping is unmistakable.
I don't want to go into the whole Envy vs Lumagen debate here (feel free to PM me if you'd like) but I would certainly have a look at the new Envy Core, which provides the 'Core' video processing functionality at a drastically lower price than before.
On, and this improvement is the same for any source of HDR content - disc, streaming, Kaleidescape, etc.
Harry Potter
1917
The Shallows
Game of Thrones
Now not every scene will show this degree of difference. If a given scene is well lit, with no especially deep shadows, or very bright highlights, both the Sony or JVC will handle these fairly well without the Envy. But as soon as you encounter more challenging darker or brighter scenes, the improvement with the Envy's tone mapping is unmistakable.
I don't want to go into the whole Envy vs Lumagen debate here (feel free to PM me if you'd like) but I would certainly have a look at the new Envy Core, which provides the 'Core' video processing functionality at a drastically lower price than before.
On, and this improvement is the same for any source of HDR content - disc, streaming, Kaleidescape, etc.
Furnace Inferno
Well-known member
It’s all subjective really, unless you are comparing to a known quantity or are used to seeing very accurate images I don’t think most people would consider the differences that big. I used to run an Epson LS10500 and felt it was fine. Proper DTM makes a big difference for getting the correct scene brightness/saturation but if you aren’t comparing how would you know it’s wrong?!
I won’t enter the Lumagen vs MadVR debate either but I have a Lumagen which for me is far superior to the MadVR for my use case. Plus for the same reason I didn’t get a Trinnov, I don’t like machines that are just off the shelf PC parts under the hood, even though the PC I have in the room has a 12 year old CPU still going strong, I don’t trust them as much.
As a Lumagen owner I will echo the above endorsements of both MadVR and Lumagen. Either is a step up in image quality from projector based tone mapping and both add additional features that will vary in usefulness based on your particular setup.
The VW5000ES is one of the perfect matches to an external videoprocessor. It is bright enough to provide enough headroom for HDR, but has no built-in functionality to make use of it.
A real no-brainer IMHO.
For the Lumagen, i would not go without a pro to dial it in, the madVR Envy can be configured pretty good on your own based on the traning material available.
EDIT: But i would also recommond to habe your dealer dial-in an Envy. With its remote support feature, that is even possible remotely.
A real no-brainer IMHO.
For the Lumagen, i would not go without a pro to dial it in, the madVR Envy can be configured pretty good on your own based on the traning material available.
EDIT: But i would also recommond to habe your dealer dial-in an Envy. With its remote support feature, that is even possible remotely.
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Lumagen doesn’t need a pro to dial it in. They have a step by step guide for all but the most in-the-weeds calibration settings that require additional tools to perform accurately.
If you have a basic understanding of the English language you can set up a Lumagen for your system.
You were too quick - i changed my post in the meantime. Don‘t want to start a battle