About Strato V, Dolby Vision, and FEL

[Jin-X]

Just reproduced it on the exact same spot on Empire (when Leia is yelling at Luke that it’s a trap)

Wanted to mention that it is no longer happening since I got the fw update. @josh

 

[DieZwei]

@DieZwei Here is the 4k disc DV on a UB820 and the HDR10 version on the Strato V.

As you can see: Apple DV on D+, disc DV and Strato V HDR10 all are basically identical flipping through them (any minor difference in the shots coming down to lighting conditions and camera as I took the first pics last night and these pics are with black out curtains but variable levels of light leaking through).

The one that is different from the rest in the Strato DV version with desaturated colors.

Thanks for the additional informationen and photos. Yes, I think I get what you´re saying now.

 

[HarperVision]

Given that a lot of these topics came up within context of LLDV and processors, it'd be great if any of the video experts could do a brief follow up on this thread. Building upon the above information, would using a device like an HDFury, or a processor like a Lumagen or MadVR, provide any picture quality benefit to a Strato V and a (non-Dolby Vision) projector?

I think from what Kris Deering has said on the other forum there is no benefit in sending HDR as LLDV for the Lumagen to then tonemap over just sending HDR10.

I would be curious to know how the DV to HDR10 conversion happens in the Strato V though and if it’s worse to do that over just using the HDR10 download. I quickly tried comparing the DV version to the HDR10 version both going to my Lumagen without the LLDV hack so the Strato V was doing the DV to HDR10 conversion and they looked the same to me.

Which one yields "better" picture for a non-DV projector?

1. Strato V LLDV-> Lumagen LLDV -> PJ
2. Strao V HDR10 -> Lumagen -> PJ

He had a couple theoretical examples where LLDV could be a better experience...

There is the possibility that the DV encode provides a higher quality encode for the video processor to work with, but this is yet to be demonstrated with any actual content.

There are a few cases where the DV version on Kaleidescape has an Atmos track, while the HDR10 version is a lesser format, though this would be expected as a temporary advantage, and of course it's an audio-related improvement vs video.

It really also depends on the Max luminance being used for the LLDV EDID. If you have a system that can tone map, then the higher the better.

What you're describing is what I experienced with Black Panther. It seems the MCU, at the very least, is a very subpar experience with DV. Ultimately my experience is DV is the same or worse than HDR10 so why bother with it. I can't think of a single time where DV improved upon HDR 10 with anything I've watched.

Thank you at least I know I am not crazy. For me I see it in almost every movie I watch (DV), these are just the most recent examples I documented.

I have been beta testing this new Valerion projector and originally thought it was their issue but it clearly is not. In this case I seem to be beta testing the Kscape not the Valerion. Hopefully they will work on fixing this.

Here is an example from Star Wars the Force Awakens. First photo is the DV version. 2nd is the HDR10 version. Notice the big red banner. On the DV it's more orange, while on HDR10 its a deeper red. I also have this on UHD disk and it's red like the HDR10 version. Seems that some DV titles have colors that are more washed out.

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Going to Agree. Top pic is DV, bottom is HDR10. You can see the reds are more saturated in the HDR10 picture. Peppers skin tone is a lot more natural in HDR10. DV for some reason looks cooler/more washed out. You can also see the difference in the green of the trees behind. So far it seems isolated to Disney movies?

Well just the opposite...colors (especially reds and some greens) comes across as "dimmer".

Top Gun: Maverick....the beach/football scene is overall noticeably dimmer when playing back the DV version on my projector than either the HDR10 version or the disc or even from streaming.

All I can guess is that something about the DV version played back on the non DV projector is different enough from the HDR10 versions to effect how the JVC does DTM..but not sure.

I believe what could be affecting This is something that I saw in a lot of of my HDfury LLDV testing. If the Strato V is using the display’s maximum luminance parameter that it reports in its EDID, then it could result in the lower appearing color saturation Because when it gets an HDR 10 signal, the display will apply its HDR curve and mapping to the signal thinking it is a straight HDR 10 video, usually based around 1000 nits. If it is using the Dolby Vision file that is supposed to be relying on dynamic metadata Based on the display’s peak luminance, but only is given an HDR 10 static Meta data flag that is based on a lower peak luminance without dynamic meta-data. It will appear more muted and dull as you are seeing.

I see none of these issues using an HDFury device with proper DV parameters set in it, and then applying the HDR10 metadata flag to the signal. In fact if I use 1,000 nit DV max luminance with BT2020 in my HDFury it can look too saturated.

I think @MikeKobb sharing how they convert the DV profile 5 video to pseudo HDR10 in the Strato V for output to a non-DV native display could go a long way to solving this mystery.

 

[HarperVision]

Also, the latest FW that I just got a few days ago seems to make it even more saturated.

 

[Jin-X]

It really also depends on the Max luminance being used for the LLDV EDID. If you have a system that can tone map, then the higher the better.










I believe what could be affecting This is something that I saw in a lot of of my HDfury LLDV testing. If the Strato V is using the display’s maximum luminance parameter that it reports in its EDID, then it could result in the lower appearing color saturation Because when it gets an HDR 10 signal, the display will apply its HDR curve and mapping to the signal thinking it is a straight HDR 10 video, usually based around 1000 nits. If it is using the Dolby Vision file that is supposed to be relying on dynamic metadata Based on the display’s peak luminance, but only is given an HDR 10 static Meta data flag that is based on a lower peak luminance without dynamic meta-data. It will appear more muted and dull as you are seeing.

I see none of these issues using an HDFury device with proper DV parameters set in it, and then applying the HDR10 metadata flag to the signal. In fact if I use 1,000 nit DV max luminance with BT2020 in my HDFury it can look too saturated.

I think @MikeKobb sharing how they convert the DV profile 5 video to pseudo HDR10 in the Strato V for output to a non-DV native display could go a long way to solving this mystery.

I’m on and LG G2, all my pics from Last Jedi are from the set and I saw the same thing Packers saw on Force Awakens. I’m using display led DV, not LLDV nor doing any kind of conversion.

 

[Jin-X]

Disney again with same issue in Black Panther.

DV disc vs Strato DV.

Going to check Lionsgate now with Wick 1.

 

[Jin-X]

John Wick 4K HDR disc vs 4K DV V vs 4K SDR V. Dolby Vision less color saturation than SDR (V HDR looked basically the same as the disc to me).

 

[Packers]

John Wick 4K HDR disc vs 4K DV V vs 4K SDR V. Dolby Vision less color saturation than SDR (V HDR looked basically the same as the disc to me).

I'm starting to think it's an issue with every DV title on the V.

 

[Trevor]

Just happened to have Black Panther cue'd up for later tonight. Z9K TV. Pictures of a display are always suspect but it's there in person. Saturation is dialed down a bit.

I can't say I noticed it while watching other content I've watched lately (I was very pleased with GotG V2's color performance in DV on K) but it can't be missed in back-to-back comparison. I thought maybe changing DV modes might correct it but no bueno.

 

[DieZwei]

John Wick 4K HDR disc vs 4K DV V vs 4K SDR V. Dolby Vision less color saturation than SDR (V HDR looked basically the same as the disc to me).

I´ve said that before and it might be wrong perception based on pictures taken from screen - but IMHO middle one "4K DV V" looks best to me. The other two seem to be oversaturated. Face doesn´t look natural and colors seem to be bleeding out. Same with the Black Panther example.

 

[Packers]

I´ve said that before and it might be wrong perception based on pictures taken from screen - but IMHO middle one "4K DV V" looks best to me. The other two seem to be oversaturated. Face doesn´t look natural and colors seem to be bleeding out. Same with the Black Panther example.

Camera photos will oversaturate the image, so you cant base it on that alone. When viewed in person, DV on disc is superior to that seen on the V. Something that is suppose to be red with DV looks more orange on the V. The HDR10 version on the V looks more saturated than the DV version. In fact its much closer to what DV looks like on disc. Here is a perfect example. The banner is suppose to be red. On the V it is more orange. The 2nd photo is off of disc and clearly is red. I have a trouble ticket open on the DV issue.

About Strato V, Dolby Vision, and FEL

 

[DieZwei]

Camera photos will oversaturate the image, so you cant base it on that alone. When viewed in person, DV on disc is superior to that seen on the V. Something that is suppose to be red with DV looks more orange on the V. The HDR10 version on the V looks more saturated than the DV version. In fact its much closer to what DV looks like on disc. Here is a perfect example. The banner is suppose to be red. On the V it is more orange. The 2nd photo is off of disc and clearly is red. I have a trouble ticket open on the DV issue.

About Strato V, Dolby Vision, and FEL

Ah, yes - I remember, we had that discussion already in the Dolby Vision thread.

 

[Jin-X]

I´ve said that before and it might be wrong perception based on pictures taken from screen - but IMHO middle one "4K DV V" looks best to me. The other two seem to be oversaturated. Face doesn´t look natural and colors seem to be bleeding out. Same with the Black Panther example.

As Packers said, the pics are to look at the fact that one is undersaturated. I have an iPhone and that is going to apply all manner of post processing and that is why you can’t use it as an overall quality thing, just look at the fact that there is a difference. I just looked at Godfather (Paramount) and the camera makes Brando look like he fell asleep at the beach in Miami all day. But that’s not how the DV disc or HDR10 K version look in real life. The DV K version has the colors undersaturated, the rose Vito has looks drained of red and their faces look a little vampiric.

Remember when I put the Star Wars comparisons and used like 4 to 5 different versions of Last Jedi and the only one that looked different was the DV K one with pale reds. I have done this with the movies I got where I can compare disc, digital versions and K versions and it’s always the same, the K DV version has the wrong colors.

I need to re-test Warners movies because those looked good on initial looks. Also need some Sony and Universal comparisons.

But Disney, Lionsgate and Paramount releases I have seen all have the same issue.

 

[Furnace Inferno]

I wonder if the fact they are encoding with ICtCp rather than YCbCr factors into the colour difference and perhaps displays also process them differently.

Interesting on the only comparison shots from Dolby which I’ve seen in this thread: Dolby Demonstrates ICtCp Color Model at SMPTE 2017

You can see the colour difference in the Lego shot.

I can’t say I’ve noticed the difference in red on my setup which includes a Lumagen. I’ve compared HDR10 of Monkey Man and DV which looked identical, Strato V doing DV to HDR10 and Strato V doing LLDV to the Lumagen and each time they all looked the same or at least close enough I didn’t notice the difference.

The most recent comparison I did was Deadpool & Wolverine DV on the Strato V and projector vs. Disney+ HDR10 on my OLED TV and again the reds of his suit and in the TVA were basically the same to my eye but maybe I need to check it on the projector back to back.

 

[DarkEnigma]

I wonder if the fact they are encoding with ICtCp rather than YCbCr factors into the colour difference and perhaps displays also process them differently.

Interesting on the only comparison shots from Dolby which I’ve seen in this thread: Dolby Demonstrates ICtCp Color Model at SMPTE 2017

You can see the colour difference in the Lego shot.

I can’t say I’ve noticed the difference in red on my setup which includes a Lumagen. I’ve compared HDR10 of Monkey Man and DV which looked identical, Strato V doing DV to HDR10 and Strato V doing LLDV to the Lumagen and each time they all looked the same or at least close enough I didn’t notice the difference.

The most recent comparison I did was Deadpool & Wolverine DV on the Strato V and projector vs. Disney+ HDR10 on my OLED TV and again the reds of his suit and in the TVA were basically the same to my eye but maybe I need to check it on the projector back to back.

It's certainly not every movie.

The problem right now is that we're essentially gambling with rentals/purchases as we can't tell which movies will display properly or not.

Theres been no progress update in the last month+ , yet they keep pumping out DV movies.

 

[Packers]

It's certainly not every movie.

The problem right now is that we're essentially gambling with rentals/purchases as we can't tell which movies will display properly or not.

Theres been no progress update in the last month+ , yet they keep pumping out DV movies.

I havent heard back from them since opening the trouble ticket in December, which makes me wonder if they are even close to a solution, or have any idea what the issue is.

 

[Jin-X]

It's certainly not every movie.

The problem right now is that we're essentially gambling with rentals/purchases as we can't tell which movies will display properly or not.

Theres been no progress update in the last month+ , yet they keep pumping out DV movies.

I really think it’s studio dependent for some unknown reason. Here is Furiosa looking the same as has every WB transfer I have compared. Sony also looked the same on the 1st Spiderverse but need more movies to test. Disney, Lionsgate and Paramount all have essentially the same issue.

 

[Jin-X]

I havent heard back from them since opening the trouble ticket in December, which makes me wonder if they are even close to a solution, or have any idea what the issue is.

I’d be freaking out if I realized I had to re-encode most DV movies all over again lol. Btw I sent them an example and some scenes on the Equalizer 2 DV brightness fluctuations. Unfortunately I don’t have those movies on disc to compare.

 

[DieZwei]

Remember when I put the Star Wars comparisons and used like 4 to 5 different versions of Last Jedi and the only one that looked different was the DV K one with pale reds. I have done this with the movies I got where I can compare disc, digital versions and K versions and it’s always the same, the K DV version has the wrong colors.

Yes, I remember.

 

[rafaelsmith]

I have noticed this even on a non-DV display...often playing back a DV title on a non-DV projector results in an "dimmer" ...I know it color ..but dimmer seems to descibe it better for me image...-vs- the HDR10 version from K or the disc. Still waiting on option to make HDR10 my default version since I do not have a DV display.