Kaleidescape today announced the launch of a new product line called Encore

[andrej770]

I find it interesting that some of the discussions mention other services that are available from competitors for streaming, and downloads, none of which are disc based content transfers, and then some of us question K's move to component's that will support their move in the same direction.




Jim

I agree. People seem to want K to innovate for free or never change since change seems to be difficult. K's change does not dictate a change for me. It's still my choice.

 

[JerryL]

You're right- its not the end of the world. Mark Watney made it after all

There are two problems I see.

#1 (and in my mind by far the biggest issue, but one upon I think there is some disagreement here): The concept of running parallel systems misses the whole point a Kaleidescape system: Elegance, simplicity in managing media; along with high quality output. Anyone who thinks the concept behind Kaleidescape is something otherwise doesn't understand the ownership prospect of the system. Why else did you get a Kaleidescape rather than building your own or going with something else? I don't see it as a movie server but as a media server.

And thats the problem here. Running two systems fails 2 of the 3 requirements of the Kaleidescape mission: 1- its not elegant; 2- its not simple; 3- 4k is higher quality. Its not really about another input on your display. Its about now you are forced to remember which movies you have in 4k and which in HD. Had Kaleidescape allowed the Premiere servers to tie in- even if it was just as a legacy thing where they could store DVD an BR and still import those formats- you would at least see all your content in one place.

Kaleidescape has managed to be elegant and simple with tricky situations in the past.

I think they've made an error in judgement by not making it easy for their existing customers to integrate their systems into this.

PLEASE NOTE: Nowhere do you see me saying they should give us the new PLAYERS for free or even nominal costs. New players/ sources are often needed with technological innovation with AV gear. And I understand the reason why the Premiere servers don't qualify to hold 4K material- but I think Kaleidescape is really missing the boat when the answer is to run two parallel Kaleidescape systems. It makes one wonder, why shell out all that money for the new system?

Good point about the downloads meaning you don't really need RAID. But this just leads me back to other offerings. While the streamers might not be quite as high quality (we don't really know yet), a basic Encore system will cost most several thousand dollars. A few Apple TVs, a few hundred.

So my point to to Kaleidescape as a long time and loyal customer: When Kaleidescape says: just get another system, I don't think its unreasonable for me to say: why would I spend likely in excess of $30,000 with you (at least 7 rooms) when I can spend just over $1k with Apple/Google/Someone else? Is the new system 30x better? Thats a subjective call but I will tell you the answer for me is not likely worth it. I admit I am being argumentative here: I will take your suggestion of running two systems and save myself the $29k. And when the obsolesce comes I won't be anywhere nearly as upset. And it will be far easier to get the content on multiple devices.

Issue #2 is one everyone seems to agree upon: messaging. The announcement was very capable of being interpreted as no more support of the Premiere line. Why does that matter as you say its just a movie server. I would like to know if I could still get new and replacement drives for my system. I also wondered about the software updates- but I am actually am less bothered by that because my system runs fine and you're right- at sometime they do move on. But the hard drives and what about the store- would all new content be 4k only? Then what?

I find the argument of: companies innovate, get over it as silly because while of course thats true, I would argue companies that don't remember their loyal customers go out of business.

 

[andrej770]

I agree Jerry. I bought because I had 16 rooms that needed access to DVD and blu-Ray movies and the discs kept getting lost by the kids, scratched or not put back in the library. K's KISS format is perfect. I'm confident they will remedy our concerns. They are where they are for a reason; they are one of the best at this.

However, in my opinion, loyalty is a subjective thought that only resides in the mind of those that desire it. Is Apple loyal? My point exactly! For every customer lost 100 new show up. It's about getting you hooked in not necessarily keeping you hooked in. You will hook yourself in due to the convenience.

 

[smiley]

Ok, what I don't understand is why Kaleidescape cannot move the security/encryption hardware that I assume is on the 'Terra' server to a player, and store the encrypted raw data on a Premier server?

They have already engineered the current Encore line to do the encryption on the Terra, but don't think it would be too much of a stretch to engineer a player that contained the security/encryption hardware to allow 4k storage on a Premier server.

 

[andrej770]

@smiley

While I agree, why didn't MS come out with Windows 8.2 instead of Windows 10? Because they could start from scratch. Making HW or SW backward compatible is extremely costly. Bug fixing old HW or SW and upgrading it to keep pace are two different cost points. With each brand new product offering come new customer expectations and vendor product limitations. The circle of (technology) life.

 

[JohnJ]

I also wondered about the software updates- but I am actually am less bothered by that because my system runs fine and you're right- at sometime they do move on.

I count movie guide updates as software support. If K suddenly stopped adding bookmarks for DVD and BR titles that I can only add via disc then would be a show stopper. However, based on the message that K will contine to support the Premiere Line I take this to mean support of the movie guide.

John

 

[JerryL]

Andre- you're right. But imagine if Apple came out with a new iMac that uses their own A line processor and they said its so much better but none of your old information can migrate along. And in making the announcement they left people wondering if parts would even be available for their older iMacs.....

If you want you can strike all the uses of "loyal" from my posts.

I think you could replace it with "repeat" because if you don't look at it as loyalty then look at it as someone who invests into the system and keeps buying hardware (hard rives, players, servers) and now content. Seems to me there are only so many repeat customers for a such a system.

True, not every Mac they ever sold supports El Capitian. And not every iOS device supports iOS9. But, they do have a pretty solid amount of backwards compatibility. I think you can run El Cap on 2008 Mac Pros and forward. I find that to be remarkable.

 

[JerryL]

John excellent point about the movie guide. And that is something that I was wondering about as well.

Smiley, you make a good point and perhaps the answer is in a posting somewhere here where either Michael M or Jim may have mentioned that getting this new product out stretched them pretty thin. Maybe this is something thats technically possible but they just havent beeb able to achieve just yet, or, technically possible but maybe there are legal reasons why they just can't do it.

The most important thing to me is Premiere will continue to be supported. After that we are having some sport with the discussion.

 

[caldham]

The concept of running parallel systems misses the whole point a Kaleidescape system: Elegance, simplicity in managing media; along with high quality output.

For me this is the key issue - the main selling point of the Kaleidescape system (for me) is the ease of access. Having a movie collection split over 2 separate systems is almost worse than having to look for the disks on the shelves (at least they would be all in one place). And, if I must have 2 systems, what's compelling me to make the 2nd one a Kaleidescape system.

I would be happy with new hardware (player and servers) for 4K and future formats but I want the player(s) to access my whole collection.

I feel sure this isn't a major technical issue ... and maybe we'll find out more about this soon.

 

[Pio435]

...

The most important thing to me is Premiere will continue to be supported. After that we are having some sport with the discussion.

so far so good, but:

- After rolling out the new line, who is now still gooing to invest his money in the outdated premier line where we know, it will not work with future Content?
- And when nobody invests in premier line, how long can K afford to Support the outdatet premier line?

 

[smiley]

@smiley

While I agree, why didn't MS come out with Windows 8.2 instead of Windows 10? Because they could start from scratch. Making HW or SW backward compatible is extremely costly. Bug fixing old HW or SW and upgrading it to keep pace are two different cost points. With each brand new product offering come new customer expectations and vendor product limitations. The circle of (technology) life.

Yes, you are talking about a mass-market product. Kaleidescape is a VERY expensive niche market product. I would more compare it to Crestron. Crestron supports legacy Crestron devices from 20+ years ago on their latest 3-Series controllers. Kaleidescape has been doing the same for their devices for 13+ years.

It is something that the consumers of this type of high end equipment have come to expect, and it is a disappointment that this has happened.

 

[andrej770]

Yes, you are talking about a mass-market product. Kaleidescape is a VERY expensive niche market product. I would more compare it to Crestron. Crestron supports legacy Crestron devices from 20+ years ago on their latest 3-Series controllers. Kaleidescape has been doing the same for their devices for 13+ years.

It is something that the consumers of this type of high end equipment have come to expect, and it is a disappointment that this has happened.

While I get your point, you can't progress standing still. Crestron has been at this for years too, I agree, but I had to update to DM too. QM was great but obsoleted when HDMI came. To get to 4K requires the same type HW update as my Crestron setup from QM to DM. Again, their communication method was flawed but they must progress, we also expect that...it comes at a cost unfortunately. There is no way to please everyone.

 

[Haywood]

The bigger problem Kaleidescape faces is that mainstream products are catching up rapidly in terms of convenience, interface design and quality. Does streaming video quality match the quality offered by Kaleidescape? Of course not, but the gap is nowhere near what it used to be and it is closing.

Allow me to use my own family's setup as an example. I have a quad-tuner Tablo DVR, a big NAS running Plex and a Roku box in every room. I also have nearly a thousand movies and over 70 seasons of TV on Vudu, as well as subscriptions to Netflix, Hulu, Amazon, Spotify and a few other services. Any member of my family can go to any room, pick up the same remote, navigate the same simple interface and access every piece of media available. They can watch live or recorded TV. They can watch hundreds of movies and seasons of television ripped from our disc library. They can watch hundreds of movies and television seasons we own on Vudu. They can watch our streaming services or listen to music from both our local library and a variety of streaming services. It is all rock solid stable and dead simple. I spend very little time providing tech support to my family, other than needing to install an occasional update on the NAS.

What am I giving up? Mostly the lossless audio track on movies. The picture quality difference between Vudu HDX and actual Blu-Ray is just not noticeable with most source material on my 67" HDTV.

Why am I even looking at Kaleidescape? I'm looking, because I really would like to get that extra increment of quality on my main system. I want the lossless audio. I want the better low light detail. I know that I want a larger display in the future and that these differences will be more noticeable with either a projector or a huge 4k HDR set.

The problem is the value proposition. I have already established that my very mainstream setup is extremely convenient, stable and easy to use. That means the difference comes down entirely to quality. Is the quality $4500 better? $15,000 better? $25,000 better? The other problem is that Kaleidescape is not likely to be the only game in town for much longer. Just take a look at what is happening with Vidity. Can Kaleidescape compete with $4500 players in a market that may soon have $400 players that do the same thing?

 

[JohnJ]

I have seen a lot of posts saying or implying that iTunes and Vudu have all the content so K should eventually be able to add this content too. So I thought I would check if this is indeed the case...

I have a large collection of concert DVD/BR discs. I did a sample check of random titles on both iTunes and Vudu and so far none show up. If these two companies don't have them, then I don't think I can count on K getting access to them. I would like to be wrong on this.

John

 

[brodricj]

so far so good, but:
....After rolling out the new line, who is now still gooing to invest his money in the outdated premier line where we know, it will not work with future Content?

Everybody outside the US who can't access the K-store....the new product doesn't work in these markets, and therefore I guess won't be sold in these markets, leaving the Premiere line as their only choice.

 

[TrackZ]

Haywood, you and I are in pretty much identical situations. We should talk.

I have seen a lot of posts saying or implying that iTunes and Vudu have all the content so K should eventually be able to add this content too. So I thought I would check if this is indeed the case... I have a large collection of concert DVD/BR discs. I did a sample check of random titles on both iTunes and Vudu and so far none show up. If these two companies don't have them, then I don't think I can count on K getting access to them. I would like to be wrong on this.

That's true. When I say that other services have "everything", I'm really meaning major motion pictures and TV shows. Of course there is a ton of specialty content out there as well as music and international releases that none of these services have, but is available via physical media.

 

[andrej770]

I have seen a lot of posts saying or implying that iTunes and Vudu have all the content so K should eventually be able to add this content too. So I thought I would check if this is indeed the case...

I have a large collection of concert DVD/BR discs. I did a sample check of random titles on both iTunes and Vudu and so far none show up. If these two companies don't have them, then I don't think I can count on K getting access to them. I would like to be wrong on this.

John

John, I agree. The only sure fire way to get all the movies you want is to actually buy the DVD/BR disc and import it. K will never have all the movie houses onboard, none of the streaming services will ever get 100% either. So, the best solution is to have a combination of K and other tech.

I have 32 inputs in my 32x32 DM Chassis and I recently added 3 new Matricom G-Box's so the wife and kids can use Kodi and all its "internet" sources in addition to my 2TBs of MP4 movies and 3TB of music. K doesn't allow us to bring our own movies nor our own music. THAT, to me is where they will lose most people. People don't amass all these movies, pictures and music to have someone tell them they can't import it. Even Apple allows for you to use your OWN collection.

I also recently added Crestron's new Streaming Output card (DMC-STRO) so any source can be streamed from my DM to anywhere I want over the network/internet. The DMC-STRO supports streaming at resolutions up to HD 1080p, with bitrates up to 25 Mbps. My point in saying all this is, K is merely a choice but by no means the only or best choice especially if you know tech well and depending on your needs of course. The industry has caught up with K and in some ways have passed K hence this big change in K's strategy. From this point forward, K HW must be used in tandem with other products to give the complete experience whereas in the past, K by itself was the experience. K is merely playing catchup with the Encore line.

 

[cinelife]

In case this is not understood, the K Store WILL be getting additional studios and content. I'm not at liberty to post any details (not that I have a lot to post), but the Store will continue to grow over the coming months.




Jim

 

[Haywood]

I have seen a lot of posts saying or implying that iTunes and Vudu have all the content so K should eventually be able to add this content too. So I thought I would check if this is indeed the case...

I have a large collection of concert DVD/BR discs. I did a sample check of random titles on both iTunes and Vudu and so far none show up. If these two companies don't have them, then I don't think I can count on K getting access to them. I would like to be wrong on this.

John

I have a lot of anime and foreign films that I cannot find on any of the UV providers. I started out with about 900 DVDs and 300 Blu-Rays. I was able to use Disc-to-Digital to get HD UV copies of more than 500. Another few hundred were available, but no disc-to-digital eligible, mainly because they were either Disney or MGM titles. The last few hundred were the aforementioned foreign titles. I still have roughly 500-600 films on disc that I do not have UV or DMA licensing for that are being ripped to my NAS. As I acquire UV/DMA licensing, I remove them from my NAS to free up space.

 

[Haywood]

I assume you guys are aware of the fact that there is a vast secondary market for UV and DMA codes? I rarely pay more than $10 for any new release and the price is usually closer to $7-8.