Kaleidescape today announced the launch of a new product line called Encore

[Transepoch]

The 4K standard is likely the final standard that anyone will care about buying. We have lossless audio and Atmos, what more is there? 8K? What kind of an anal-retentive nerd would want 8K?...

Presuming you mean present company excluded... but as mentioned above, 3D is still oddly missing. Sub-$100 players can pull it off.

It's also hard to see K becoming the most comprehensive worldwide store (as wonderful as that would be,) so getting locked-out of titles that go out-of print or lose their license (such as the foreign films you mention) is not a happy place to be. K is having enough fun wrangling the domestic studios, so I could only imagine all the sleepless nights trying to go directly to the foreign content producers.

transepoch -- I guess why would it hurt them to not allow disk imports from Dvds?(grandfathered into it) How could the hardware not play it? Also why couldn't the Encore Line talk to the Primer line? Of course there would be limits like if you want to play a 4k video you have to use the Encore Player. Other then that you should be able to use Encore and Primer for DVD/BR/DigitalStore.

It would hurt them in that they are not supposed to be creating new grandfathered systems, so if they are separate systems then no DVD importing (if it was a swap, then things could technically get interesting.) The new hardware certainly should be technically capable, and I will only guess the security is setup such that it is not even allowed read-only access to "lower" areas for fear of it being used as an attack vector.

(I think there might be more than 60 Million lines of code now.) Every time a new product, even a single Player, is released, it requires many, many hours of code writing and corrections to insure it will properly interface with all previous components. KEAOS has many "upsides", but making it what it is today, has also created a downside, the need to constantly work the code to keep things working correctly.

At some point, doesn't it just become easier to go the route used by webpages to say only use code for feature-A if player is at least 4xx/4xxx-series? Then establish some sort of common/raw interpath between the various interface components and modularize the actual implementation.

The movie studios have very stringent security requirements for their pristine 4K movies. Kaleidescape’s storage systems used in its 1U Server, 3U Server, and Cinema One products cannot satisfy the studio’s 4K storage-security requirements. Other 4K security requirements affect every component in the system, and (for a myriad of reasons) none of the Premiere components can satisfy these requirements.

The conspiracy-theorist in the back of my head wonders how that could happen without the standards being specifically designed to reach such a conclusion.

...either way, without significant improvements to the storage situation, 4K (or any future Encore line-only feature) will just have to slide under diskless-Disney on the list of shiny-things I'm not getting. At least unless/until it becomes worthwhile to ply a second system. Otherwise it's just a matter of needing bigger drives to avoid scavenging a chassis from those fed-up.

 

[Mr.Poindexter]

I can live with Premier servers not housing 4K content. I can even live with 4TB is all you are going to get for hard drives (but later generations of drives might change that so I think is isn't no but not these ones - maybe in the future...).

What I cannot understand is why an Encore player cannot play DVD or Blu-Ray content from a Premier server. If the Premier line is strong enough for Blu-ray data, then why can't the Encore player play it back from the Premier server. This would allow people to upgrade to 4k players and not have to jockey between players for each level of content. It would allow for a natural upgrade path into the Encore line and let users surf content in one location. The only content that would not be seen would be Encore content when viewing an M-class player, which is fine since that player couldn't play 4K anyway. With a system like this, one could migrate players and then eventually move all their content to the Encore servers when it is available on the store and keep their old Premier line as a warehouse for the odd bit of content that will never appear on the store, home videos and music.

One thing I have not noticed is any mention of how to replace the hard drive on these Terra servers and Encore/Alto players with an internal drive. Will we have to send them in to have the drives replaced each time a drive fails? If so, we don't lose content from just that drive, but all content on the server until it is shipped back and then redownloaded. It also makes for a real chore if your server has a non-drive based failure as you wouldn't be able to swap out the drives and thus might have to redownload ALL your content. A fully loaded Terra Server with 24TB has 201,326,592 mega bits of data. That would take 2,013,266 seconds to download with a constant 100mbps connection. That equals 33,554 minutes, or 559 hours, which is 23 days nonstop at 100mbps. Hopefully you are uncapped and don't get throttled. At my parent's house with their 1mbit connection speed, it would take 6.4 years.

I have endured many replications in my years with Kaleidescape and watched all my content disappear at the start and have it come back at the rate of 1TB per day. The last one took over a month for a 36TB transfer when I migrated to 4TB drives. At least with redownloading, we would get to choose content to move to the top of the list and that is a BIG plus.

I just think we need to see how drives can be swapped or repaired. Sending a server or player to Kaleidescape any time there is a drive issue would really suck. If they can still do an advance repair swap or otherwise allow us to swap the drives on our own, I am not so concerned.

 

[David23]

So Premier can't house 4K. Fine. I get that. But why can't an Encore player ALSO be a Premier player?

What would be the point if you can't play 4K content?

 

[andrej770]

What would be the point if you can't play 4K content?

I think he explained that. Today we have the K & M players, but IF, and that is a big IF we decide to buy into the Encore line, I'd prefer to use the same player for both the Encore line AND my Premiere line. Today you can't do that. I have a 32x32 Crestron DM setup so switching to a new Encore Player (just another source) would be a button push on the Crestron App or remote, but there in lines another problem. I only have the movie on my Premiere system (at this time). The Encore player should be able to see my premiere system AND play its content and at the same time as see the new Terra server and its content. I should not have to have two different sets of Players. If the encore players saw both product lines, then I'd be more apt to trading in my K & M players for an encore player and eventually buying a Terra server.

Conversely, being a technologist, I never have the expectation that ANY technology, no matter how expensive, is going to be upgraded and supported by the vendor forever; its foolish and naïve to think of technology in that way. Yes, you paid a lot, but YOU did it, they didn't force you. It was a choice and another choice has been presented. Its life. Its hard, but its fair! Additionally, all hardware servers eventually get old and must be REPLACED. Whether you replace it with the same vendor or another, it WILL have to be replaced at some point to serve that and any new purpose; its the circle of (technology) life . Live with it!

I'd love to have 6 or 8TB drives to add to my Premiere system also and I don't see why the heat should be an issue. The Seagate 6 and 8TB drives don't have a bigger heat signature than the 2 or 4TB; I know because we have 170 servers with 12 3.5" drives in each chassis and if they generated more heat I would know (we'd pay more). The major change in these drives is the density of the platter. More density does not generate more heat. So, the heat argument is bogus. I can get a letter from Seagate stating that, especially as many as we buy directly from them.

Now, in this thread, to this point, I have not seen Jim nor Michael (K) say that the 6 or 8TB drives would not be available (unless I missed a comment). So until I see that from them, I won't even venture to consider the so-called K 6TB heat issue. Michael said Premiere line would be around and supported for years to come. That is all I needed to hear/see. Their prices should drop on Premiere line (hopefully) so I'll just add a couple new 3U's and be done. I'll use other sources to bring in 4K content, Kodi, Roku 4, Apple TV. I am not expecting K to solve all my 4K desires. To really view 4K you need a 4K source, 4K receiver and 4K display. K is not responsible for all the other areas other than being a source. So, venture out and review non-K technology. You'll find that there are MANY technologies that will prevent you from spending the same dime you did on K stuff and with more customizable features. Progress is good for us as well as K AND competition is robust. C'mon in, the waters warm! LOL

Just my opinion.

 

[JerryL]

MichaelM thank you for your post.

I'd also like to have the ability for the new player to play off a Premiere server for the same reasons as above and probably other reasons- decoding the HD soundtrack internally would be nice.

 

[MikeG]

Holding my breath for a reasonable upgrade path. Hoping further still that my current content will be integrated seemlessly with the new system.

Maybe I should say please

 

[Kicker]

I agree. If I could buy a new player + server but still see the entire Encore+Premiere collection in one place, that would be good.

 

[Pio435]

+ 1 / aussuming premier line will stay updated and content is avilable also for non US-customer for encoro line. Thats what I would expect from K ...

 

[cinelife]

There has never been a discussion regarding 8TB availability, and as far as I know K is not evaluating that drive. Owner's have speculated about 8TB in various threads once they became commercially available, but K was evaluating 6TBs, and that is still the situation AFAIK.

It is true that there were reports of "heat issues" with the particular 6TB's K was evaluating, a non-issue in the new Terra Servers, but a problem in the tightly constructed 1U and 3U chassis. I do not know how big an issue it is, and whether or not the problem can be resolved going forward, but I was told they are not giving up on larger drives for the Premiere line. That said, there's no guarantee they can get those working, we'll see.




Jim

 

[andrej770]

I guess my question is what more do you feel you need from a "movie" server? 4K is a display format not a storage format. You can't update to 4K without new display (player) hardware. So besides keeping the movie catalog updated what more do you need? I'm asking because I see a lot of people wanting K to turn into Apple and Roku and that is not their core business. And when they stick to their core business and come up with new offerings, we complain. What am I missing other than the "I paid a lot of money, treat me special" mindset? It's a source in a AV system; it is not the entire AV system. Please help me understand what else (in your mind) K has to do to the Premiere line to keep it viable?

 

[Homecinemas]

Thank you Michael M. for your response.

 

[JerryL]

Hi Andre, since you asked: I think many of us just don't want to feel like we were kicked to the curb- which is how this first appeared to me. I don't care who you are, when you have a sizable investment in one of these systems, you don't want to feel like you are now out in the cold.

In the past when new players became available they worked with our servers. As I see it, the servers are literally just that, repositories of data. Its reasonable to assume (tricky word as that is) new hardware would work with the old servers. It has in the past and these are substantial investments.

To put this in context, imagine if Apple said, in order to use the new iPhone 6S, you will have to get the new iCloud 2 account. This account is not compatible with iCloud 1. To get your content from iCloud 1, you will just run your older iPhone 6 side by side with the 6S. (this is not the greatest analogy but its what I just came up with- you can certainly poke holes in it). I think there would be a lot of upset people saying- I thought when I bought Star Wars for the millionth time, I could play it from any iOS device. And they'd have a point.

Speaking for myself, I knew new hardware was coming and it was likely 4K hardware. Thats great. In my case Im hoping it might resolve some other issues I have with the current players. I just made a reasonable assumption that I'd be replacing some players and it would work with my servers. I think many of us were surprised that going to 4K would require a whole new SYSTEM.

Now we find out there are technical copy protection reasons as to why the Premiere servers can't do the job to the level of the standards. I'm sure they could handle the raw data.

I don't love the outcome of a whole new incompatible system is required. But I understand it. I can understand why the studios would want greater protection for their IP. A 4k copy of a movie is getting pretty close to the master.

I like knowing my movie collection is safe and sound with RAID enterprise drives that Kaleidescape has worked hard to ensure meet their standards and the collection is available to me immediately. The new server doesn't seem to be setup as RAID (how come?).

As someone who is often an early adopter and someone who likes to stay current with technology, it would be nice to know I could upgrade fairly easily to 4K. But since Kaleidescape will continue to support what I have, I am not as upset as I was before. I really felt they were saying: this is the way forward and the past is in the past. Also, right now I have no 4K displays and no plans to get any displays in the next year.

HOWEVER, I think Kaleidescape is missing their chance to capture their installed base- how many people is that? I bet its a solid number. Instead it seems they are going after NEW customers. Thats their business decision. In my case, if I get a 4K display, and I want to see 4K content beyond broadcast/Sat/Cable, I might just try a cheap streaming device. What happens if I become very satisfied with this? Then all of a sudden I have almost no reason to continue to use my existing K Premiere system and absolutely no reason to get the Encore system. Why would I continue to buy 1080P movies from the K store when I can get them from Apple or Google etc? (Albeit those are purely streaming with the issues that come along with it). I think I disagree with their decision to market to new customers > existing customers. But thats their choice. The most important thing is they are still supporting the Premiere line.

My hope is they will find a way to at least allow the new players to work with the legacy content on our Premiere servers. Or better yet, offer a RAID version of the new server and an attractive upgrade path....

 

[djb_rh]

I guess my question is what more do you feel you need from a "movie" server? 4K is a display format not a storage format. You can't update to 4K without new display (player) hardware. So besides keeping the movie catalog updated what more do you need? I'm asking because I see a lot of people wanting K to turn into Apple and Roku and that is not their core business. And when they stick to their core business and come up with new offerings, we complain. What am I missing other than the "I paid a lot of money, treat me special" mindset? It's a source in a AV system; it is not the entire AV system. Please help me understand what else (in your mind) K has to do to the Premiere line to keep it viable?

I can't even comprehend what you just said.

In current form, if one wants to add 4K movie content AND keep their DVD and BR content that they already have, the only choice is to add a completely new system. New clients at each TV position *and* a new server somewhere.

Is that the end of the world? No. But the problem for many of us is that now we have some movies on one source and the rest on a different source. When grandma visits and wants to watch The Martian, she's probably going to select the source she used last time she was visiting to watch movies (our Premiere source). She won't find it. She'll be confused. She will have to be told "oh, no, select that Encore source and you'll find it there."

This is just kind of dumb, especially since unless there's something I'm missing, there's no reason that K couldn't have created a single player that could play 4K content from the new server *AND* legacy content from the Premiere server.

Maybe they still plan that and we just have to wait. Maybe there's some technical reason they can't. Maybe they'll at least have an interface that shows you the stuff you have on your "other" server from the new one and then a smart integrator could setup a custom control system that could know how to switch over when you select that movie. That's certainly possible with K's fairly advanced control abilities on Premiere, anyway. At a MINIMUM, I expect them to do this. Then I can at least create a single interface that can fake a single player scenario without one.

Anyway, it sure SEEMED like the possibility existed that K was abandoning Premiere altogether. It's nice to hear that's not the case...I mean I'm sure they will eventually because nothing lasts forever, but I don't think anyone felt like now was the time.


--Donnie

 

[djb_rh]

Why would I continue to buy 1080P movies from the K store when I can get them from Apple or Google etc? (Albeit those are purely streaming with the issues that come along with it).

FWIW, the above isn't true. I don't use Google, but for Apple you *can* buy movies and you can store a persistent copy locally. The new ATV has storage on it, and you can certainly use a local Mac to store iTunes content persistently. It's just a matter of time before they start doing higher resolution versions.


--Donnie

 

[JerryL]

You're right on both! I forgot about that. I still prefer the quality we get with Kaleidescape but as compression and internet reliability improve its just moving us that much more into that camp.

 

[cinelife]

I find it interesting that some of the discussions mention other services that are available from competitors for streaming, and downloads, none of which are disc based content transfers, and then some of us question K's move to component's that will support their move in the same direction.




Jim

 

[djb_rh]

I find it interesting that some of the discussions mention other services that are available from competitors for streaming, and downloads, none of which are disc based content transfers, and then some of us question K's move to component's that will support their move in the same direction.

Not really...the problem here is that unless Encore/Premiere can integrate some more -or- K has some as-yet unannounced features, there's just not NEARLY as much to differentiate the K products from the competitors.

Will K do what they do better? I'm sure they will. But the question becomes is THAT enough to justify the cost increase? That's the part people aren't as sure of. With Premiere there's just no question compared to everything else out there, and that's just what we spoiled customers have come to expect!


--Donnie

 

[Mr. Integration]

I am curious to see if this is about the premier product at all. Everyone knew they would need to buy a new 4K player and more than likely additional storage. So the added expenditures are a non issue. Any new customer can only have downloaded content so the need for RAID is not nearly as critical. I think it boils down to having to utilize an extra input and that is a pain but not a deal killer. I have resigned myself to the fact that I will need to run parallel systems. I will just use the new server for anything we download and the premier for things I want to import. I also think that as more and more titles appear in the store this will become less of an issue.

I am confident that if K had their way everyone would still be importing DVDs and Blu Rays. That went the way it went. I think we need to focus on the bigger issue. I think these new units are priced way too high. I know they are made in the US but I think the price of Entre is to too high to the streaming client. I think we need a 1500 player only and a 2500 with hard drive.

 

[TrackZ]

I find it interesting that some of the discussions mention other services that are available from competitors for streaming, and downloads, none of which are disc based content transfers, and then some of us question K's move to component's that will support their move in the same direction.

There's a key difference. Those stores (Apple, Amazon, and VUDU) are full. They have everything plus a mix of UV and DMA. If one is fine with their quality then you don't need discs in those ecosystems.

Investing in K though means you want disc quality, generally. But the store is lacking. So you can't all-in-one it on their hardware off their store.

 

[andrej770]

I can't even comprehend what you just said.

In current form, if one wants to add 4K movie content AND keep their DVD and BR content that they already have, the only choice is to add a completely new system.

That is only if you limit yourself to K (as if K is the only one that does it - that is a personal limitation not a technology limitation)

there's no reason that K couldn't have created a single player that could play 4K content from the new server *AND* legacy content from the Premiere server.

The issue is, if they did that, someone would complain that they could not import a movie to the Premiere line with the new player since the new player doesn't have the capability. Then K is wrong for not having that capability in the new player. My point, the complaints will continue non-stop since K won't be able to please everyone.

The key piece of information that I think is overlooked in this discussion is the new Encore players don't have import capabilities (no disc slot). So you will only be able to use it as a player like the x300 players. Thinking you can upgrade all your existing players to the encore player (even if it did play Premiere content) won't work if you want to do any imports.

People started this thread complaining that they thought K wasn't going to continue to support the Premiere line. My simple question was, what is it that they really do today to continue to "support" this line: update KEOS, keep the movie catalog updated, test new Hard drives to determine viability. My point is that there isn't really anything left to do to "support" a movie server; its a movie server, not a streaming server and it has no video outputs, its all over the network. It stores bits for playback with a pretty interface. There is no rocket science in what K is doing here. The server itself doesn't need any additional "support" for that. Players are a completely different conversation, which I already addressed. But this "support the premiere line" argument makes no sense to me since there is nothing really to support unless the HW is still under warranty; its a mind game the vendors spout and the same mind game customers believe. We get caught up in emotion because we spent money on it, so I get that, but, again, that was our own choice. I don't have regrets and refuse to whine when the vendor changes course. Mind you, if they charged for the KEOS updates (which I recommend as a change in business model) and let the HW be cheaper and more customizable (which I also recommend), then you would have more of a "support" argument. That model just works. MS and Apple are Multi-Billion dollar companies selling updates to existing SW mostly. But without that model, the HW will get old and fall out of warranty and you are, as usual, at the mercy of a manufacturer of HW. Its life. I'm not mad at K's new move. Their pricing may prevent some from becoming new K customers and existing customers my choose not to adopt yet another new method, but they are already used to that since these systems cost in the thousands today, even before the new move. They have been wildly successful before and they will continue to be with this new move. Once the new players also see Premiere line content, I'm all in. Until then, its not all doom and gloom, I still love my systems and import new movies and watch them with family. Their move doesn't affect me nearly as much as is "seems" its affecting other people commenting here like all is lost. The only thing lost is your investment, you wouldn't get that back no matter what technology you invested it in - its technology that will get old and must be replaced which WILL cost you more money eventually! Come back to earth! I know they found water on mars but you still live here! Its not that serious!

Just my opinion folks.