Strato C Blackouts

[andy]

Assuming for the moment that the problem exists *between* the Strato and Arcam, how does one rectify it (other than introducing the splitter, which fortunately does work here)? In this type of situation, with some justification, each will point to the other as the source of the problem, and the problem never gets resolved.

Be glad the splitter is helping. It may be necessary to keep that in place until a software update with one (or both) of the devices resolves the issue. To get to that point sooner than later, you may want to reach out to K support and Arcam support to at least get it on their radar. I know at times, that manufacturers may loan each other equipment to try and solve some of these issues faster.

Andy

 

[DLCPhoto]

Be glad the splitter is helping. It may be necessary to keep that in place until a software update with one (or both) of the devices resolves the issue. To get to that point sooner than later, you may want to reach out to K support and Arcam support to at least get it on their radar. I know at times, that manufacturers may loan each other equipment to try and solve some of these issues faster.

Andy

Understood, and agreed. Better to have a problem with a viable work-around, for sure.

Thanks again for the replies and information.

 

[DLCPhoto]

@andy (and others):

After 3 movies, with the switch in place, I am no longer experiencing any video blackouts, which is awesome. But I have been having a few audio split-second dropouts. About 2 or 3 per movie. Their duration is quite short, but noticeable, and there is no triggering of a long HDMI handshake as there was with the video issue.

Any ideas on what might be causing this? I have followed the audio dropout issues with the Strato V, but haven't noticed reports of it with the Strato C.

I'm going to be trying two things:

• The switch is USB powered, and now plugged into an available USB port on my Envy Extreme, but because I've read that some devices function better plugged into an AC outlet, I'll do that and see
• I'll also reconfigure things for a movie, using Audio output to Arcam and Video output directly to Envy, to see if the switch itself is somehow responsible

I really love the system, but these glitches have definitely made this a lot less fun than it could/should have been!

Is it possible that there is some hardware/firmware issue in my particular Strato C that is causing all of this?

 

[J.Green]

If you haven't already, you should definitely contact our Support team with this issue. Simply email support@kaleidescape.com

 

[DLCPhoto]

I have been in touch with Andre about the video issue, waiting to hear back from him. But I just confirmed the audio glitch last night, and will include that when he replies.

If there is someone else with more expertise in this type of problem, please let me know.

Thanks.

 

[audioguy123]

As I read the description of the HDMI handshake process, and designed authentication, I can only laugh.

I get the desire for "Hollywood" to encrypt their content, but it's a total joke. Just "google" how to decrypt a bluray [for ripping purposes] and you will find a host of products that broke through that protection 10 nano-seconds after it was implemented. And if they can do that, so can someone with much more nefarious objective. But we pay the price.

Sorry for the rant.

 

[DLCPhoto]

@audioguy123 - I couldn't agree with you more, and I have this exact same conversation regularly with people I'm working with. It has resulted in huge headaches for the honest people, with no impact on those intent on pirating. Sigh...

Update on my original problem - I continued to have audio dropouts when running through the HDMI splitter, so that ended up being a no-go.

I happened to have a 20' Monoprice Ultra High Speed Certified 48gbps cable laying around (same type of cable that I run 4k/120 from Envy to JVC without problem), and ran it from the Strato directly to the Arcam, and so far everything has been stable. I watched a full movie, along with an hour or more of testing, and no video or audio dropouts so far. So I'm cautiously optimistic that the problem is purely the HDMI cable, as it is with 95%+ of HDMI woes.

The irony is that the KScape supplied cable failed, while an inexpensive Monoprice cable seems to be working. Famous last words, I realize, but time will tell. I've ordered a 6' length of the same cable, as I don't need 20' coiled up on the floor!

Assuming this problem is in fact resolved, I have to say I'm really liking the KScape experience. I used the Pioneer disc reader to catalogue my favorite movies, and a high percentage of them were only $4.92, with many of my titles now upgraded to 4k.

And I've come to realize it's more than not just having to grab a disc and put it in the player, but it's not having to wait for the player to read the disc, fast forward through coming attractions or similar content, not having to confirm the audio track, in my case turning on subtitles, etc. I just hit play and the movie starts.

And being able to make my own scenes, adding them to my own scripts, is incredibly useful when I have people over to demo the theater. I was able to do this for the first time yesterday, and it worked great. Doing this with disc was incredibly tedious, cumbersome and inefficient.

So maybe KScape needs to have another look at what HDMI cable they package with their players - the right cable would have saved me many hours of grief and frustration, and made for a much more positive first experience with the KScape ecosystem.

 

[cinelife]

About a year ago, after many years of swapping cables whenever a problem showed up, I finally decided (at least for me) that it really doesn't matter. I'd buy the new cable, usually one claimed to be the latest and greatest according to forum "experts," only to get a short term fix before again having a problem, which always led to the next recommendation, and a repeat of that cycle.

Maybe the problem isn't with the cable, especially if it was working fine when first installed, it could be, but maybe it isn't. Maybe it's just the complex nature of HDMI, further complicated by all of the devices we "enthusiasts" add to our systems that also have to function in the complex world of HDMI and the requirements to protect content. I know for certain I don't have the answer, but I do know some products just don't "play nice" with other components, so we're left "chasing the tail."


Jim

 

[DLCPhoto]

About a year ago, after many years of swapping cables whenever a problem showed up, I finally decided (at least for me) that it really doesn't matter. I'd buy the new cable, usually one claimed to be the latest and greatest according to forum "experts," only to get a short term fix before again having a problem, which always led to the next recommendation, and a repeat of that cycle.

(I'm reminded of my early years of dating someone new every few weeks. Things always started out fine, and then some personality or character flaw would end it. My friends claimed I was too "picky" and I was wasting my time looking for the perfect woman person because everyone has issues. So maybe I thought the problem was them, when it was actually me.)

Maybe the problem isn't with the cable, especially if it was working fine when first installed, it could be, but maybe it isn't. Maybe it's just the complex nature of HDMI, further complicated by all of the devices we "enthusiasts" add to our systems that also have to function in the complex world of HDMI and the requirements to protect content. I know for certain I don't have the answer, but I do know some products just don't "play nice" with other components, so we're left "chasing the tail."


Jim

I agree that the more complex a theater is, especially with the introduction of HDMI 2.0, HDMI 2.1, and 4k/HDR content, it is clearly more challenging to get a system that is stable. Heaven help us when HDMI 2.2 starts getting implemented!

I have been directly involved with installation and configuration of the madVR Envy video processor in a very large number of theaters around the country. Systems that were otherwise stable HDMI-wise can become unstable after a new component, Envy or otherwise, is introduced. And 95% of the time the source gets tracked down to one or more of the cables. Occasionally there are software settings that need to be tweaked, or firmware updates (Trinnov has had a couple of these), but it's usually the cable.

In my particular case, the theater is a bit on the complex side: madVR Envy with NZ900, utilizing their HDMI 2.1 capabilities, to get MotionAI using 4k at 120 Hz. But it has been completely stable for quite some time now, with 4 different sources: Roku Ultra, AppleTV 4k, Panasonic UB420 and UB820. As soon as I plugged in the Strato C, the video drop-outs started immediately, so it wasn't fine from the get-go.

Kaleidescape support stressed the fact that they utilize the full bandwidth available (as does the madVR Envy), and this may reveal HDMI cable shortcomings. I think that point is quite valid. But at this point in time, it appears that it may actually be their cable that is the problem.

And I do absolutely agree with your statement that some components don't "play nice" with each other, and the end-user gets caught in the cross-fire. That clearly is the case here - KScape works fine working directly with the Envy and JVC, as does the Arcam. But there is something funky going on between them, and they just don't get along for whatever reason.

It's just the unfortunate nature of the beast that is HDMI, and the end-user is often left to themselves to sort it all out. In my case, **hopefully** a simple cable replacement will stabilize things, and I can just sit back and enjoy the system.

 

[SJHT]

I went for years getting audio drops from my setup. Always thought it was the Lumagen Pro VP. The reality I believe is that it was just a part of the issue. After getting lots of advice from the experts, I decided to do several things.

• Removed everything from my theater equipment rack and stacked devices by function (amps, sources, network, control, etc)
• Replaced all HDMI cables with 3’ bullet train
• Kept power cables on one side of my rack as much as possible and as separate as I could get from HDMI etc.
• Ran HDMI cables in long sweeping turns and not wrapped up in coils
• Switched from using the audio only output on my Lumagen to one of the video outputs and set it to 1080P audio only (my personal opinion is that my audio processor (Trinnov) for some reason didn’t like 720P - this was based on some article about the Oppo 205 which talked about audio dropout possibilities with 720p/1080i). Audio dropouts comment by Jim Peterson at Lumagen:

“ It is part of my theory that most audio drops occur when the video_clock/audio_clock ratio changes and the clock "step size" at 1080i/720p is larger than the audio processor can always deal with. Running audio-only output at 1080p60 cuts the clock step size in half making it easier on the audio processor.”

I rarely have an audio drop anymore. Guess the bottom line is sometimes there is no easy fix for complex setups…

 

[thrillcat]

I was going to mention this but it seemed you’d found a solution.

I’m not going to pretend to understand the EXACT science but the way I understand it, HDMI implementation across different hardware can deliver signals at different voltages, or strengths, so something to that effect. A source device sending a strong enough signal can digitally overload the next device in the signal path, causing these sorts of signal drops. It’s not a handshake thing, it’s just a signal mismatch. A longer HDMI cable can act as a buffer of sorts to decrease the flow from the source and eliminate drops.

Same type of idea that happens when you use too long of a cable and the signal isn’t strong enough to maintain the signal when it reaches the destination.

Jim from Lumagen recommends at least a 3m HDMI cable for all connections, and I believe the cable that K packages is a 1m. It’s a quality cable but it can introduce issues as we see here.

[edited to correct length values]

 

[SJHT]

Meter or Feet? Jim recommends 3 meters, but 2m minimum

 

[DLCPhoto]

@thrillcat and @SJHT

Appreciate the input, and we're definitely on the same page.

The first thing I saw (and was surprised by) is that the KScape supplied cable was 3' or so, not the 2-3m recommended by madVR, Lumagen, etc. So I had a spare 6' Certified Premium 18gbps Monoprice cable, thinking that would fix it up. It did not. I had another to try, and it did not either.

I then remembered I had the 20' Ultra High Speed Certified 48gbps Monoprice cable that I use for working with new projectors, so I hooked that up, and, so far at least, that seems to have resolved it. Whether it's simply the length, or the wider bandwidth, isn't yet clear. I'm hoping it's the bandwidth, as I just ordered a 6ft version of the same cable.

Theoretically, you only need an 18gbps cable between the KScape and Arcam, because the Strato is an HDMI 2.0 device. But as you both understand quite well, it's neve quite this simple. There are other HDMI 2.1 connections and EDIDs floating around in my theater (Arcam, Envy HDMI output, and JVC Projector), so who knows how this impacts this.

 

[thrillcat]

Yeah, I could be wrong about the exact lengths quoted, meters vs feet, etc., but the idea remains.

It also depends on the devices. I have been using the packaged PixelGen cable in my configuration for a couple years without issue, which just tells me that the Anthem processor I'm using can handle the input voltage, while other hardware may not.

 

[SJHT]

Looked and I put feet in my post. Lol. Meant meter and this forum doesn’t allow simple changes to a post after a brief time. Oh well…

 

[cinelife]

Looked and I put feet in my post. Lol. Meant meter and this forum doesn’t allow simple changes to a post after a brief time. Oh well…

Premium Members can edit old posts, can Delete as well, among other benefits.....not saying you need to sign up, just pointing out the ability to edit does exist on this Forum.

Jim

 

[audioguy123]

When I had my Lumagen, my audio dropouts were quite long - and frequent - and the Lumagen was the source switcher. When I changed to the MadVR, the Trinnov had to become the switcher. While I still have occasional audio dropouts, they are far less frequent and much shorter in length. I don't think the Envy or the Lumagen were the source of the issue but I do think having the Trinnov become the switch helped.

And FWIW, all of my cables were/are Bullet Train 3 meters, and all are on the opposite side of the rack from power cables.

 

[Transepoch]

I’m not going to pretend to understand the EXACT science but the way I understand it, HDMI implementation across different hardware can deliver signals at different voltages, or strengths, so something to that effect. A source device sending a strong enough signal can digitally overload the next device in the signal path, causing these sorts of signal drops. It’s not a handshake thing, it’s just a signal mismatch. A longer HDMI cable can act as a buffer of sorts to decrease the flow from the source and eliminate drops.

I was wondering about this, from back when it was debated on here (may have been when the Stratos came out but feel it wasn't that long ago.) Shouldn't it basically be the same as the switch he originally used, in the shouldn't-but-does-induce-HDMI-calming category?

 

[DLCPhoto]

I was wondering about this, from back when it was debated on here (may have been when the Stratos came out but feel it wasn't that long ago.) Shouldn't it basically be the same as the switch he originally used, in the shouldn't-but-does-induce-HDMI-calming category?

This is certainly plausible.

The video blackouts I experienced were definitely HDMI handshake related - the Envy sends a brief message showing signal info after any handshake is completed, and this did appear each time. The AVStar splitter did seem to completely get rid of these, but unfortunately, it didn't get rid of the brief audio dropouts (which likely were not handshake related, given their split-second duration). So the splitter is no longer being used.

I put in a 6 ft Monoprice (Ultra High Speed Certified, 48 gbps) cable last night, and so far things are stable.

I use this type of solution - an intermediate device to manage EDID, voltage, who knows what! - with the longer cable between the Envy and Projector (typically fiberoptic): AVProEdge 8k Downscaler/EDID manager, HDFury Vertex 2 in particular.

Man, I detest all things HDMI!

 

[DLCPhoto]

Quick update:

My video blackouts continue, with every HDMI cable I've tried. I even tried reconfiguring my NZ900 to use EDID B, for HDMI 2.0 compatibility, but it made no difference. Arcam said their Gaming Input is the most stable HDMI-wise, so I tried that, but no difference.

I mentioned that the cheap HDMI 2.0 splitter I had (looks identical to the EZCOO one people use for LLDV) did seem to get rid of the video blackouts, but unfortunately had sporadic split-second audio dropouts. I discussed my situation with a guy at Audio Advice who has more technical knowledge and experience than anyone I know, and he recommended using a better splitter. So I'll be ordering an AVProEdge HDMI 2.0 splitter, and hopefully the better build quality with this device will fix both problems.

I love KScape, but man this has been frustrating...