Strato C Blackouts

[DLCPhoto]

I just added a Strato C (with 4tb server) to my theater. I have had rock solid HDMI stability for a very long time. Here is my setup, shown in order of connection:

Sources:
UB420, UB820, Roku Ultra, AppleTV 4k

Audio Processor:
Arcam AV41

Video Processor:
madVR Envy Extreme MK2

Projector:
JVC NZ900

I connected the Strato C Friday evening, and installations, configuration and setup were quite straightforward. Before even downloading any new content, I played some of the content that was already available (a few documentaries), and was shocked to have Video Blackouts. Meaning that the Video was lost, with a new HDMI handshake occurring, with return of the Video after 10-15 seconds or so. It might then play for 1 minute, 10 minutes, 20 minutes, etc. But sooner or later the Blackouts would recur. When these occurred, the audio played continuously.

I work with Audio Advice after retiring from my medical career, and the main thing I work on is the madVR Envy, with remote customers all around the country. 95%+ of the troubleshooting I do is HDMI related, and I have been directly involved in probably a few hundred installations. I've just about seen it all, and have managed to resolve problems every time, one way or another. So this isn't my first rodeo.

My troubleshooting has involved using different HDMI cables, physically bypassing either the Arcam, and/or the Envy, etc. The Arcam seems to be the source of the problem. At one point it seemed that perhaps the specific Input I had the KScape pugged into might be bad, so I switched it to the Input I use for my UB420, which accounts for the vast majority of what I watch in there. It has been rock solid. But the problem recurred even after switching Inputs.

I have tried almost all combinations of settings on the KScape and Envy, in case there was some type of conflict. No changes worked.

I then connected the Video output from the Strato directly to my Envy's input, and connected the Audio output from the Strato to the Arcam. Lo and behold, this worked! We watched the 2 hours and 40 minutes of Arcam without a blip.

But this is not a viable solution, because the other sources need access to the Envy's single Input as well. I could theoretically get an HDMI switch, but I shouldn't have to do this. The Arcam does not have any problems of this type, or any type, with any of the other Inputs. But for whatever reason, it's just not getting along with the Strato C.

I'll be contacting KScape support on Monday, but thought I'd pick the brains here, to see if this is a known issue of some type, if there's some hidden KScape setting that I'm overlooking, etc. The Arcam doesn't seem to have much of anything in the way of video settings. I am well aware that HDMI 2.1 creates problems of all sorts with various devices, so that may figure into things here. But all of my other devices work just fine.

Any ideas? I have spent hours with this - not a great introduction to the world of Kaleidescape, unfortunately. But I already love everything else about it, and surely this problem has to have a solution!

 

[JohnA]

I have a different video and surround processor than you but have had similar issues. Using the audio out solved most of the issues and is an adequate solution for me as I have multiple inputs. FWIW for me anyway, the last few blackout/HDMI handshaking issues I was still getting were solved by changing the KScape 4K Ultra HD Support setting from Auto to 10.2Gbps. There was no change to the video when doing this.

I went through numerous recommended HDMI cables which were no help in solving any of these blackouts.

Good luck, it is frustrating.

 

[DLCPhoto]

I have a different video and surround processor than you but have had similar issues. Using the audio out solved most of the issues and is an adequate solution for me as I have multiple inputs. FWIW for me anyway, the last few blackout/HDMI handshaking issues I was still getting were solved by changing the KScape 4K Ultra HD Support setting from Auto to 10.2Gbps. There was no change to the video when doing this.

I went through numerous recommended HDMI cables which were no help in solving any of these blackouts.

Good luck, it is frustrating.

Thanks for the reply John.

While in my usual troubleshooting, 95%+ of HDMI woes are attributable to the cable, in my case, having tried 3 that are Certified Premium, I'm not inclined to think that's the problem.

If it was the cable, then reducing he KScape's bandwidth could potentially help. But I have tried that as well, with no improvement.

It seems to be the Strato and Arcam not on the same page somehow. I suspect an EDID miscommunication of some sort. With the Envy I can actually download the Display's EDID block, but I haven't figured out yet what to do with that information.

While it's probably not likely, there could be some defect in my particular Strato C, since this issue doesn't seem widely reported.

I'm open to any other suggestion on what to do, or further troubleshooting steps, from anyone!

 

[DLCPhoto]

Well, I think I fixed it. I happened to have an AVStar HDMI splitter on hand (looks identical to the EZCOO one that many use for LLDV purposes), and I put that inline between the Strato and Arcam. I've used this type of approach in other installations, mainly with the much longer HDMI cable between an Envy and Projector, and it very often stabilizes the HDMI connection.

I just finished watching Amadeus 4k (2 hours, 40 minutes or so), and it played without a blip.

The idea is that if these 2 devices won't talk politely to each other, you then add a 'mediator' in the middle, that can talk politely to each one separately, and allow the signal to go through. That seems to be what is happening here.

I will report this to KScape, to see if they're aware of a potential issue, at least with Arcam processors, and about the work-around that got things going.

 

[jdlynch]

Congrats on finding a work-around. I can only imagine the frustration you must have been feeling; especially having just made a sizeable purchase.

 

[DLCPhoto]

Congrats on finding a work-around. I can only imagine the frustration you must have been feeling; especially having just made a sizeable purchase.

You have no idea!!

 

[audioguy123]

The REAL issue is not the Arcam or Strato - but an incredibly poor implementation of HDMI. If not 100%, then at least 98% of my system issues are always HDMI related -directly or indirectly.

 

[DLCPhoto]

The REAL issue is not the Arcam or Strato - but an incredibly poor implementation of HDMI. If not 100%, then at least 98% of my system issues are always HDMI related -directly or indirectly.

Oh I agree 1000% on this. HDMI is the worst thing to have ever hit home theater. The worst!

I'm not inclined to 'blame' the Arcam, since every other source I have works just fine going through it (even using the same physical input used by my UHD player!). Similarly, it seems unfair to 'blame' the Strato, since it works fine with likely a very high percentage of theaters.

So what explains these outlier exceptions, where things go wrong?? I'm hoping to connect with the right support person in KScape to see if we can get to the bottom of this. The switch work-around seems fine so far, but that is somewhat of a 'band-aid' to the problem. And it was a $25 device that could go bad itself! I'd rather drill down to get to the bottom of it, if at all possible.

 

[DLCPhoto]

(And, just for the record, my first post said a "4tb server" which was a typo - it was an 8tb. The forum apparently doesn't allowing posting after a certain period of time.)

 

[cinelife]

I don't think some people realize that the EDID data string is sent from the display every 3 to 5 seconds, and the source has to authenticate the data to continue the unterrupted signal. This isn't that difficult when the source is directly connected to the display, but when you add devices in between the source and the display it adds another level of repeating the data string, and any hiccup in the transmission of bits, or in the timing, or the data itself, can cause what we see as blackouts and audio dropouts, and other problems. So yes, HDMI is a PITA, but we help it be a PITA by complicating transmission of the data strings between components.....because we love spending money on new things that improve our A/V experience.....until they don't.


Jim

 

[DLCPhoto]

I don't think some people realize that the EDID data string is sent from the display every 3 to 5 seconds, and the source has to authenticate the data to continue the unterrupted signal. This isn't that difficult when the source is directly connected to the display, but when you add devices in between the source and the display it adds another level of repeating the data string, and any hiccup in the transmission of bits, or in the timing, or the data itself, can cause what we see as blackouts and audio dropouts, and other problems. So yes, HDMI is a PITA, but we help it be a PITA by complicating transmission of the data strings between components.....because we love spending money on new things that improve our A/V experience.....until they don't.


Jim

Thanks for the reply and information. I wasn't aware that the EDID communications were ongoing, rather than taking place just during the initial HDMI handshake. That does seem consistent with the fact that the blackouts are seemingly random - I would get them after a minute or two sometimes, and others it would play without problem for 20 minutes or more before blacking out. Somewhere the back and forth breaks down, for whatever reason, and then a new handshake gets it going again, at least temporarily.

Your point about our increasing the risk of problems when we add more devices to the HDMI chain is perfectly valid - I totally get that, and agree. And yet it is quite ironic that adding yet another device, the HDMI splitter, actually stabilized things.

I'm in touch with KScape support now, starting to work through this, which is great. As I told him, the fact that the Strato is the only device with problems, going through the exact same HDMI chain of devices, with the same cables, and even the same physical input on the Arcam, seems to suggest that the Strato is doing something, or behaving differently in some fashion, than all the other devices. It seems to be doing something differently than the other 4 source devices.

 

[cinelife]

I agree with your comments, and I guess my point isn't an argument against what you experienced because I've experienced that as well. It's more just a reminder that data is being constantly transmitted and any weakness in the HDMI / EDID, even just a few lost bits on occasion, can cause the distracting dropouts. Obviously some devices perform better than others.

I should also note, my comment about the 3 to 5 seconds may be different now, but that's how it was working last I checked. Advances in tech may change that going forward, if it hasn't already happened.

Jim

 

[DLCPhoto]

I agree with your comments, and I guess my point isn't an argument against what you experienced because I've experienced that as well. It's more just a reminder that data is being constantly transmitted and any weakness in the HDMI / EDID, even just a few lost bits on occasion, can cause the distracting dropouts. Obviously some devices perform better than others.

I should also note, my comment about the 3 to 5 seconds may be different now, but that's how it was working last I checked. Advances in tech may change that going forward, if it hasn't already happened.

Jim

Understood and appreciated. Regardless of the frequency, it is helpful to know that it's not a "one and done" type of thing, but to whatever degree, it's an ongoing communication.

 

[andy]

Wanted to chime in and clarify a couple details. EDID is requested and exchanged mainly during hot plug events like powering on your devices, or switching sources. During these events, the source device (e.g., Strato, BD player) requests EDID from the sink device (e.g., display, projector), combined with any repeater devices (e.g., HDMI switch, AV receiver/processor) to learn what audio and video formats are supported. Once this exchange is done and the source device configures it's outputs to match the audio/video capabilities, EDID is not generally exchanged again.

Now, it is possible that something in the path changes often enough to trigger frequent EDID requests, but this is generally less common than an issue with HDCP authentication which takes place at regular intervals during playback (and is more sensitive to outside issues).

This authentication initially occurs at the start of playback when the source requests HDCP compliance from the sink. The sink then provides its unique HDCP key (called a Key Selection Vector, or KSV).

• Assuming the KSV is valid (there is a blocked devices list maintained by HDCP authorities), the source generates an encryption key and transmits that back to the sink.
• The sink then uses its private HDCP keys to decrypt the encryption key.
• If the values match, both devices share an encryption key, and HDCP-protected content transmission begins.

After the initial event, HDCP continuously re-authenticates at various intervals during playback.

• HDCP 1.x: Re-authentication happens approximately every 2 seconds
• HDCP 2.x: Uses a randomized authentication interval, meaning re-authentication requests can happen unpredictably

During each of these re-authentication events, the source requests the sink to generate a new session key, and then the validation process is repeated. If the keys don't match during any of these checks, then playback can be disrupted, and potentially halted altogether.

None the less, as Jim alluded to, it is often an overly complex HDMI path that contributes to audio/video drops, especially when you consider that every device in the path contributes to the HDCP keys being validated successfully.

Andy

 

[DLCPhoto]

• HDCP 2.x: Uses a randomized authentication interval, meaning re-authentication requests can happen unpredictably

Thanks for the very education reply, @andy. The part quoted above definitely seems to correspond to what I'm experiencing, where those blackouts are definitely random.

Any ideas on how to track down and prevent these presume failed re-authentications? If it's the Source (meaning the Strato) initiating the re-authentication process, how does having the HDMI splitter in the chain improve the process, which randomly fails otherwise?

 

[andy]

It's really a trial and error approach to see what might make a difference. Introducing a splitter can reorder the HDMI signal in a way that allows all the components to work better together, but that isn't always the case. Sometimes it makes it worse ... you just have to try and see.

The best way to troubleshoot is to simplify the path to its simplest form, the source to the sink is ideal with cables known to work w/o issue. If things work great in this configuration, add one component back at a time until you identify what introduces the issue. This approach is certainly easier said than done and can be frustrating . But, with a little patience (and sometimes luck), it should help to pinpoint the culprit.

Andy

 

[cinelife]

Can always count on my friend @andy to provide additional info!


Jim

 

[DLCPhoto]

Thanks, and that's what I've done. Given the random nature of the problem, it's hard to be 100% certain, but it seemed that the only time the problem was present was with the Arcam in the chain.

Assuming for the moment that the problem exists *between* the Strato and Arcam, how does one rectify it (other than introducing the splitter, which fortunately does work here)? In this type of situation, with some justification, each will point to the other as the source of the problem, and the problem never gets resolved.

 

[josh]

The forum apparently doesn't allowing posting after a certain period of time.

The forum doesn't allow editing one's older posts after about 10 minutes. (Unless you're a paying premium or patron member here!)
The forum allways allow posting.

 

[DLCPhoto]

The forum doesn't allow editing one's older posts after about 10 minutes. (Unless you're a paying premium or patron member here!)
The forum allways allow posting.

Pure brain spasm on my part - I of course meant editing! Thanks.