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Remotescape! Kaleidscape control from iPhone & iPod Touch
- Thread starter josh
- Start date
Sorry in advance for the long post ....
After playing with the Remotescape application since its launch date, here are some comments.
The application does work as advertised and the price, at least to me, is fair and reasonable. I've installed the application on a first gen Iphone, an Iphone 3G and an Ipod Touch. It works perfectly on each of these devices. I just downloaded the update, but have not used the updated application yet. In comparison to the Sonos Iphone application, this application is just as polished and functional, and more importantly, it provides great functionality for the K system. At less than $300 for the application and a brand new Ipod Touch, it is a valuable and economical controller for my Kaleidescape system.
Without repeating the features addressed by others, there are some features I would really like to see implemented.
First, I would very much like some type of volume control made available through Remotescape. Right now I have the analog outputs of a movie player hooked up to the line-in input on a Sonos ZP-100. With this configuration the Remotescape application controls music selection and the Sonos Iphone application controls the volume level output to a whole house amplifier feeding various zones.
As others have mentioned, there appears to be a slight delay when connecting the Remotescape application to the wireless network. After trying some different configurations, I chose to employ static IP addressing for the Iphone which seems to slightly decrease the delay in accessing the network. There is still a minor delay period for the Remotescape application to discover existing Kaleidescape components, but that same delay is also present with other devices like Sonos using the Iphone on a home network. As Josh noted, this likely has more to do with the Iphone than Remotescape.
The movie control features work well, although you do need to be viewing the movie information on a screen. For music control it functions well, except that only an entire album can be added to a playlist as opposed to individual songs. That must be some type of oversight at the moment. In short, this is what I would expect a handheld controller to be able to do when controlling music.
I did notice one other glitch that relates to a recognized album that did not have cover art. On the cover art screen in the Remotescape application, no cover art is present for this particular album. Interestingly, K recognized the album, but did not provide cover art for the album. I manually imported the cover art and it now shows up for the album on the television, but the Remotescape application still does not present the cover art. Perhaps this is a sync issue in rebuilding the cover art screen or maybe it relates to the application just accessing the raw data provided from K. Has anyone else seen this issue for albums that use manually imported cover art?
On to requests for more features - three additional features. The first two relate to music, the third relates to movies.
For the first music feature, as Josh pointed out, I would really like the Remotescape application to display album reviews and the artist reviews. These two display options really differentiate Kaleidescape music from those of its competitors.
The second music feature is what I would call a "jukebox" mode. The jukebox mode should be a configured safezone that requires a short password to disable. Disabling jukebox mode returns normal Remotescape control to the application. The jukebox mode would be a configurable option from the main Remotescape application. In jukebox mode a user can select songs, not albums, to be played as one would use a jukebox in a bar. By passing around the controller, songs can be added one at a time during a party or other event. Songs cannot be skipped and the playlist cannot be altered while within the jukebox mode. If volume control comes to exist, volume control would not be available in jukebox mode. In short, an on the fly playlist could be created by guests by browsing a list of albums or through cover art, with the songs added one at a time. The playlist could be viewed, but no songs could be skipped nor could the arranged music be manipulated in any way.
The third feature, useful for movie selection, is what I would call "Movie Bin." This feature would require support by both Kaleidescape and Remotescape. Before Kaleidescape, movie selection involved looking at a rack full of movies and pulling them from a rack as possible candidates for viewing. After about 7-10 movies were chosen, we would select one or two movies to watch. I can imagine this process could be adapted to the Kaleidescape system. Even today with Kaleidescape, we look through a list of movies or view cover art to determine what to watch. We come up with a list, oftentimes written down, and then vote about what to watch from that list. With Movie Bin, Kaleidescape could, if it wanted to, allow a quick tag of a movie and placement of the movie into a temporary "collection" called Movie Bin (or something else more creative). Once all movies were identified for the bin, the user could access the collection tab and play all available trailers or simply select a movie to play from the list. Remotescape could be used in this selection process, similar to the above jukebox mode, so that this could be done in a room other than the viewing room and no other control features would be accessible except tagging selections for the Movie Bin. An Iphone could be passed around for people to make their selections while something else was on TV or while music was playing. With the movies tagged, you have essentially replaced the task of collecting movies from the shelf or at a video store, and you wouldn't forget one of the choices someone mentioned, but the group happened to forget. I understand that there is a category called Watch Soon, but that category gets used, at least by me, to tag movies that are imported and not yet viewed. Movie Bin is essentially a collection of Watch Right Now movies.
On a related theme, even with a Movie Bin mode, I would like my guests to be able to browse the movie list to look for movies to watch. I understand that this would require the K system to pass movie data to the network similar to the way music information is now made available, but this should be possible. Right now we essentially pass the remote around for people to scroll through the movie lists and cover art to decide what to watch. If the data were available to the Remotescape application, it would be possible for someone to browse the movie list in a different room or with some other program being watched by the group.
Hopefully Kaleidescape and Remotescape are listening. The jukebox feature would really surpass the Sonos functionality for music control at parties. There have been many times where people use dueling Sonos controllers to override music choices. The jukebox feature would eliminate that issue.
After playing with the Remotescape application since its launch date, here are some comments.
The application does work as advertised and the price, at least to me, is fair and reasonable. I've installed the application on a first gen Iphone, an Iphone 3G and an Ipod Touch. It works perfectly on each of these devices. I just downloaded the update, but have not used the updated application yet. In comparison to the Sonos Iphone application, this application is just as polished and functional, and more importantly, it provides great functionality for the K system. At less than $300 for the application and a brand new Ipod Touch, it is a valuable and economical controller for my Kaleidescape system.
Without repeating the features addressed by others, there are some features I would really like to see implemented.
First, I would very much like some type of volume control made available through Remotescape. Right now I have the analog outputs of a movie player hooked up to the line-in input on a Sonos ZP-100. With this configuration the Remotescape application controls music selection and the Sonos Iphone application controls the volume level output to a whole house amplifier feeding various zones.
As others have mentioned, there appears to be a slight delay when connecting the Remotescape application to the wireless network. After trying some different configurations, I chose to employ static IP addressing for the Iphone which seems to slightly decrease the delay in accessing the network. There is still a minor delay period for the Remotescape application to discover existing Kaleidescape components, but that same delay is also present with other devices like Sonos using the Iphone on a home network. As Josh noted, this likely has more to do with the Iphone than Remotescape.
The movie control features work well, although you do need to be viewing the movie information on a screen. For music control it functions well, except that only an entire album can be added to a playlist as opposed to individual songs. That must be some type of oversight at the moment. In short, this is what I would expect a handheld controller to be able to do when controlling music.
I did notice one other glitch that relates to a recognized album that did not have cover art. On the cover art screen in the Remotescape application, no cover art is present for this particular album. Interestingly, K recognized the album, but did not provide cover art for the album. I manually imported the cover art and it now shows up for the album on the television, but the Remotescape application still does not present the cover art. Perhaps this is a sync issue in rebuilding the cover art screen or maybe it relates to the application just accessing the raw data provided from K. Has anyone else seen this issue for albums that use manually imported cover art?
On to requests for more features - three additional features. The first two relate to music, the third relates to movies.
For the first music feature, as Josh pointed out, I would really like the Remotescape application to display album reviews and the artist reviews. These two display options really differentiate Kaleidescape music from those of its competitors.
The second music feature is what I would call a "jukebox" mode. The jukebox mode should be a configured safezone that requires a short password to disable. Disabling jukebox mode returns normal Remotescape control to the application. The jukebox mode would be a configurable option from the main Remotescape application. In jukebox mode a user can select songs, not albums, to be played as one would use a jukebox in a bar. By passing around the controller, songs can be added one at a time during a party or other event. Songs cannot be skipped and the playlist cannot be altered while within the jukebox mode. If volume control comes to exist, volume control would not be available in jukebox mode. In short, an on the fly playlist could be created by guests by browsing a list of albums or through cover art, with the songs added one at a time. The playlist could be viewed, but no songs could be skipped nor could the arranged music be manipulated in any way.
The third feature, useful for movie selection, is what I would call "Movie Bin." This feature would require support by both Kaleidescape and Remotescape. Before Kaleidescape, movie selection involved looking at a rack full of movies and pulling them from a rack as possible candidates for viewing. After about 7-10 movies were chosen, we would select one or two movies to watch. I can imagine this process could be adapted to the Kaleidescape system. Even today with Kaleidescape, we look through a list of movies or view cover art to determine what to watch. We come up with a list, oftentimes written down, and then vote about what to watch from that list. With Movie Bin, Kaleidescape could, if it wanted to, allow a quick tag of a movie and placement of the movie into a temporary "collection" called Movie Bin (or something else more creative). Once all movies were identified for the bin, the user could access the collection tab and play all available trailers or simply select a movie to play from the list. Remotescape could be used in this selection process, similar to the above jukebox mode, so that this could be done in a room other than the viewing room and no other control features would be accessible except tagging selections for the Movie Bin. An Iphone could be passed around for people to make their selections while something else was on TV or while music was playing. With the movies tagged, you have essentially replaced the task of collecting movies from the shelf or at a video store, and you wouldn't forget one of the choices someone mentioned, but the group happened to forget. I understand that there is a category called Watch Soon, but that category gets used, at least by me, to tag movies that are imported and not yet viewed. Movie Bin is essentially a collection of Watch Right Now movies.
On a related theme, even with a Movie Bin mode, I would like my guests to be able to browse the movie list to look for movies to watch. I understand that this would require the K system to pass movie data to the network similar to the way music information is now made available, but this should be possible. Right now we essentially pass the remote around for people to scroll through the movie lists and cover art to decide what to watch. If the data were available to the Remotescape application, it would be possible for someone to browse the movie list in a different room or with some other program being watched by the group.
Hopefully Kaleidescape and Remotescape are listening. The jukebox feature would really surpass the Sonos functionality for music control at parties. There have been many times where people use dueling Sonos controllers to override music choices. The jukebox feature would eliminate that issue.
iPhone Remote Functions
Hi,
Do any companies like Crestron or AMX have any interest in doing a remote program for the iPhone? I think that the Remotescape program is pretty cool looking and will buy it soon. It seems like there could be a market for an application that looked like a touchpanel screen, or the like.
Thanks, Steven
Hi,
Do any companies like Crestron or AMX have any interest in doing a remote program for the iPhone? I think that the Remotescape program is pretty cool looking and will buy it soon. It seems like there could be a market for an application that looked like a touchpanel screen, or the like.
Thanks, Steven
Zok
Active member
Yes, Remotescape is listening.
Noted. We demonstrated a prototype with volume control at CEDIA Expo 2008 in K's booth, but that didn't make it into our 1.0 release. It's on our list of things to think about.
Is this delay when you launch Remotescape from the main menu, or when you wake up the iPhone/iPod while Remotescape is still running?
Yes, we agree this is desirable, and missing at present. It's on our roadmap.
This is a known issue with the current release - basically Remotescape's copy of the music data is out of sync with the K System. We plan to fix this in a future update. For now, if it is bothering you, one workaround is to uninstall/re-install the app, which will force it to reload the music data from the K System. Another option is to import an additional music CD - the data for all albums in the library will be re-synced to pull the data for the new album.
Totally agreed, and we want to do this one. We need K's help though: the K control protocol does not offer this data today.
--DanC.
Noted. We demonstrated a prototype with volume control at CEDIA Expo 2008 in K's booth, but that didn't make it into our 1.0 release. It's on our list of things to think about.
Is this delay when you launch Remotescape from the main menu, or when you wake up the iPhone/iPod while Remotescape is still running?
Yes, we agree this is desirable, and missing at present. It's on our roadmap.
This is a known issue with the current release - basically Remotescape's copy of the music data is out of sync with the K System. We plan to fix this in a future update. For now, if it is bothering you, one workaround is to uninstall/re-install the app, which will force it to reload the music data from the K System. Another option is to import an additional music CD - the data for all albums in the library will be re-synced to pull the data for the new album.
Totally agreed, and we want to do this one. We need K's help though: the K control protocol does not offer this data today.
--DanC.
Thanks for the info Dan. Your feedback and comments are appreciated.
Here's some follow-up information.
It's both. If I leave Remotescape running "Now Playing" and turn off the Iphone, when the Iphone is turned on again, there is a delay in showing the music list. In some instances there is a message saying that no components have been discovered. In another situation, assume that the Remotescape application is turned off by hitting the home button, and then the Iphone is turned off. When the Iphone resumes from the sleep mode and Remotescape application begins running, there is a delay in discovering the four movie players. Sometimes 2 are quickly discovered, with more time required for the remaining 2 players. Other times, none of the 4 players are discovered until after a period of delay. The Sonos Iphone application is slightly faster at discovering the 6 zones I have, but not by much. I assume that this has something to do with the polling feature of the application.
I will try to force a resync by importing another CD. My hope is that the sync takes far less time than the initial sync did for the 500+ albums I have in the system. The first sync took about 45 seconds or more. I would prefer not to have long sync times for the addition of just one album. Are you syncing from an index of changed values or performing an entire data upload once the application knows that a change has occurred?
Agreed, the K browser control module/web control does not offer this data either.
As a further feature request, I noticed that K updated their control protocol in Kaleidescape System Control Protocol Reference Manual (p. 53) to provide for playing a specific script. I set up a specific script called Movie Night that contains various trailers and a movie to be played. In a future release would it be possible to designate a specific named script for playback so that a single button push would designate that script to be played? I know this is asking for a higher functioning command that is likely only available through a Crestron or AMX interface (PLAY_SCRIPT:script_name), but a feature like that would permit a group of users that use scripting to at least bypass navigation to a list of scripts and allow us to simply hit a single button on an Iphone.
Keep up the great work,
Jay
Here's some follow-up information.
It's both. If I leave Remotescape running "Now Playing" and turn off the Iphone, when the Iphone is turned on again, there is a delay in showing the music list. In some instances there is a message saying that no components have been discovered. In another situation, assume that the Remotescape application is turned off by hitting the home button, and then the Iphone is turned off. When the Iphone resumes from the sleep mode and Remotescape application begins running, there is a delay in discovering the four movie players. Sometimes 2 are quickly discovered, with more time required for the remaining 2 players. Other times, none of the 4 players are discovered until after a period of delay. The Sonos Iphone application is slightly faster at discovering the 6 zones I have, but not by much. I assume that this has something to do with the polling feature of the application.
I will try to force a resync by importing another CD. My hope is that the sync takes far less time than the initial sync did for the 500+ albums I have in the system. The first sync took about 45 seconds or more. I would prefer not to have long sync times for the addition of just one album. Are you syncing from an index of changed values or performing an entire data upload once the application knows that a change has occurred?
Agreed, the K browser control module/web control does not offer this data either.
As a further feature request, I noticed that K updated their control protocol in Kaleidescape System Control Protocol Reference Manual (p. 53) to provide for playing a specific script. I set up a specific script called Movie Night that contains various trailers and a movie to be played. In a future release would it be possible to designate a specific named script for playback so that a single button push would designate that script to be played? I know this is asking for a higher functioning command that is likely only available through a Crestron or AMX interface (PLAY_SCRIPT:script_name), but a feature like that would permit a group of users that use scripting to at least bypass navigation to a list of scripts and allow us to simply hit a single button on an Iphone.
Keep up the great work,
Jay
Zok
Active member
Okay, noted. I'm not sure if there's much we can do to improve this, but we'll keep thinking about the problem.
Unfortunately, in the current release, re-syncing will take the same (long) time as the first sync. As I say, we will correct this out-of-sync problem, so you should look at this as a temporary work-around.
We'll think about this in the context of adding other advanced features to the Remote tab. For example, Josh requested some direct buttons for marking start/end of favorite scene, naming the current unnamed favorite scene (if any), switching audio tracks & subtitles - rather than doing it all on-screen from Playback Options. The challenge is that the Remote tab, during movie playback especially, but even in other Movie screens is quite full already, and if we clutter it up too much, there will be a lot of mis-hits when you go to push a button. We have several ideas here, but need to design and prototype them.
Thanks for all the good suggestions,
--DanC.
Zok
Active member
Remotescape v1.1.0 released.
Remotescape v1.1.0 is now in the App Store, and is a free update. v1.1.0 adds the above-requested missing feature: you can now browse all the songs of an album from the album details pop-up, and choose to add them to the currently playing music or replace the currently playing music. And you can still do the whole album at once if you like.
We also tried to speed up wake-up from sleep.
Hope you like it,
--DanC.
Remotescape v1.1.0 is now in the App Store, and is a free update. v1.1.0 adds the above-requested missing feature: you can now browse all the songs of an album from the album details pop-up, and choose to add them to the currently playing music or replace the currently playing music. And you can still do the whole album at once if you like.
We also tried to speed up wake-up from sleep.
Hope you like it,
--DanC.
Crestron App
Hi,
I have been using the Crestron application for a bit now, and it does seem to do the job for basic functions. Not sure how much it can ultimately do, though. Mine doesn't seem to look anything close to what Remotescape appears to look like. Not sure what options are available for the Crestron App, aside from just putting buttons on there. But the GUI appears to be a nice feature of Remotescape.
Thanks, Steven
Hi,
I have been using the Crestron application for a bit now, and it does seem to do the job for basic functions. Not sure how much it can ultimately do, though. Mine doesn't seem to look anything close to what Remotescape appears to look like. Not sure what options are available for the Crestron App, aside from just putting buttons on there. But the GUI appears to be a nice feature of Remotescape.
Thanks, Steven
It would be nice to know if an iPad app has been done and is awaiting testing/approval. I'm going to buy an iPad the moment the Rscape iPad app is released.
I was just thinking of the economics of the Rscape app today. Apparently there are 5000 K systems in use today. Assuming R has a 10% market penetration that makes 500 sales of a $70 app = $35,000. Is that all R do, iPod/Phone/Pad apps for the K system? that's not much of a revenue stream to keep a company going, especially one that relies on tech savvy people and highly skilled software writing.
I was just thinking of the economics of the Rscape app today. Apparently there are 5000 K systems in use today. Assuming R has a 10% market penetration that makes 500 sales of a $70 app = $35,000. Is that all R do, iPod/Phone/Pad apps for the K system? that's not much of a revenue stream to keep a company going, especially one that relies on tech savvy people and highly skilled software writing.
Zok
Active member
Remotescape for iPad
There is no iPad version waiting for Apple's approval, yet.
But we have been working on a way to integrate volume control into Remotescape. We expect to start Beta testing in June.
We'll start looking at the iPad version after the volume control launch. We hope to release a version of Remotescape for the iPad by the end of this year.
P.S. brodricj -- don't forget Apple's 30% commission!
There is no iPad version waiting for Apple's approval, yet.
But we have been working on a way to integrate volume control into Remotescape. We expect to start Beta testing in June.We'll start looking at the iPad version after the volume control launch. We hope to release a version of Remotescape for the iPad by the end of this year.
P.S. brodricj -- don't forget Apple's 30% commission!
Can you give us an idea how you're going to do volume control? I guess it will require some sort of third party hardware interface and a library of codes for popular pre-amp processors?
Unlike K, please don't forget that Halcro/Lexicon/Mark Levinson etc owners might also want to control their lossy sound volume with Remotescape Then you'll get $70 from me (minus Apple's 30% cut ) and Apple will sell another iPad!
One elegant solution for volume control (for me anyway) would be to get Remotescape to communicate with CBUS over TCP/IP, and then CBUS can spit out the volume control commands over IR (or RS232). CBUS stores the IR/RS232 commands in memory and just needs to be told which one to send out and when. I have all the hardware to do it already, I just need the app to make it work! The CBUS protocol is very well documented and I'm sure it would be a piece of cake for you smart guys at R to write the code to make it work. CBUS can also control the whole Kaleidescape system, and 1-way control is something I can program myself. Where considerable smartness is required is with 2-way control and that is beyond me.
Another elegant solution (again, for me anyway!), would be for Remotescape to communicate with a Philips RFX9600 over TCP/IP and duplicate the volume function of the ProntoPro controller.
Unlike K, please don't forget that Halcro/Lexicon/Mark Levinson etc owners might also want to control their lossy sound volume with Remotescape
Then you'll get $70 from me (minus Apple's 30% cut ) and Apple will sell another iPad!One elegant solution for volume control (for me anyway) would be to get Remotescape to communicate with CBUS over TCP/IP, and then CBUS can spit out the volume control commands over IR (or RS232). CBUS stores the IR/RS232 commands in memory and just needs to be told which one to send out and when. I have all the hardware to do it already, I just need the app to make it work! The CBUS protocol is very well documented and I'm sure it would be a piece of cake for you smart guys at R to write the code to make it work. CBUS can also control the whole Kaleidescape system, and 1-way control is something I can program myself. Where considerable smartness is required is with 2-way control and that is beyond me.
Another elegant solution (again, for me anyway!), would be for Remotescape to communicate with a Philips RFX9600 over TCP/IP and duplicate the volume function of the ProntoPro controller.
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Zok
Active member
Volume Control
The initial release will provide a way for the installer (or a DIY-minded user) to tell the app to connect to a specified IP address and TCP port, and send a given command string. (1-way control only) We aren't providing a library of control commands and codes at launch -- just a way to enter whatever raw data you need to send.
You don't need to buy any extra hardware if you already have a way to control things in your system over TCP/IP. Otherwise, you'll need to get an Ethernet/WiFi -> RS232/IR bridge device (e.g. from Global Cache or similar).
Sounds like it will probably handle your setup out of the box. As we get more feedback, we'll see what additional functionality is required.
The initial release will provide a way for the installer (or a DIY-minded user) to tell the app to connect to a specified IP address and TCP port, and send a given command string. (1-way control only) We aren't providing a library of control commands and codes at launch -- just a way to enter whatever raw data you need to send.
You don't need to buy any extra hardware if you already have a way to control things in your system over TCP/IP. Otherwise, you'll need to get an Ethernet/WiFi -> RS232/IR bridge device (e.g. from Global Cache or similar).
Sounds like it will probably handle your setup out of the box. As we get more feedback, we'll see what additional functionality is required.
Can you at least try and get Rscape to mirror how the ProntoPro remote sends a TCP/IP command over WiFi to the RFX9600 serial extender so it can send a Vol+ or Vol- or mute toggle command out over the appropriate serial port, together with appropriate command repeat interval?
Zok
Active member
Although we haven't played with a RFX9600 before, from what I can find online, the protocol for sending commands to it over IP is not public/open. Also it seems to be using UDP packets (and requires 2-way communication), not TCP/IP. It seems that maybe Philips doesn't intend it to be used with anything other than their Pronto remotes. So I don't think Remotescape will be able to send commands to the RFX9600, at least not in our first release.
If you have more information about the RFX9600 control protocol, feel free to PM me and I'll take a look.