NEWS: New Kaleidescape "M-Class" players announced, with Blu-ray support

[kman]

M-Series Audio Update - seems to me that the likes of Lexicon, Halcro and the like need to step up and handle True HD and DTS Master via bitstream audio. Most of the cheap receivers today do this. Even Denon's $7,500 AVP Processor does this - nice unit BTW, all the connectivity, Realta HQV... The question is: Why don't the pricey processors do it?

 

[Mr.Poindexter]

Because those companies were not built on being innovative as much as being purists for using the best components and layouts that didn't compromise audio quality so their core base of competence was in a different part of the process than the areas that are growing faster now.

Just because a person can build a better amplifier doesn't mean they can build a better video scaler and while they might have good D/A conversion and surround processors, they are just getting those as components to put in their gear. They are using a Realta HQV or Anchor Bay or Brown-Burr chip, but they are not designing and making them. If they were huge companies they might be able to but smaller companies are going to find it difficult to innovate as well as the giants.

Kaleidescape has done well in this regards, but we are paying a high price for that.

But yeah, the audiophile brands have to step up to the plate and do some of these things that the mass merchant companies are doing or the extra mile you get out of one technology won't let you compete against the competition who gains much more using newer technology sooner. The technology isn't going to slow down or stop so they can't wait a while and catch up - instead they will always be a step behind and that isn't a safe place to be if you want to charge a hefty premium.

 

[cinelife]

How will the requirement that the BR disc be in the player work if you have a multi-disc blu-ray set (i.e. movie on one disc and extras on the second or maybe more common - a TV series with multiple discs). Will it be sufficient if one disc of the set is in the player or, for example, if I am watching episode 12 of a TV series, will I have to find the specific disc that has episode 12 on it?

Mike, the way it works for multiple disc sets is the discs will become part of the same set when you import them (as usual), but when you go to select a particular episode the available episodes (based on the disc in the tray) are listed in normal print, and all other (non-playable) episodes are in italics. To play something in italics requires putting the disc containing those episodes in the tray.

Regarding special feature discs, I'm still testing.


Jim

 

[rbienstock]

What is missing is probably room for 8 extra RCA jacks on the back of the player for 7.1 decoding. My Lexicon MC-12 won't decode DTS-MA because I didn't pay for the latest tradein but I don't blame the player for that. I find it stunning that a pro-pro at the level of Meridian won't decode the format.

NO! Your MC-12 won't decode DTS-MA with any upgrade/trade-in that currently exists. If you have a MC-12HD with the latest (free) upgrade, then you can decode 7.1 discrete channels of LPCM delivered over HDMI, exactly like the Meridian does, so whether one has a Meridian or Lexicon, or one of many other high-end surround processors, you'll have problems with the M-series.

 

[rbienstock]

Is it any more embarassing than a very expensive Halco or Meridian that cannot do what a Sony receiver from best buy can do? Not to pick on those companies, but when neither one does the decoded, how is it only Kaleidescape's fault and not the surround sound processor manufacturer's fault that they cannot decode the new format?

Again, NO! The high-end manufacturers understand that the best way to deliver high-quality audio is to do the decoding in the player. Of course, Kaleidescape equipment never mated well with high-end audio equipment. Just look at the many messages I've posted here complaining about their bitrate reduced audio output.

 

[JerryL]

Bingo. Though I do get full quality results with coax out of my K Player 5000 to my 861 v6.

If you have a condition in the market place then you can't go blaming the high end companies or whomever else. Besides if you are building a $100 BR player then you can say oh well, its someone elses fault- we're offering terrific value for the dollar. But if you are selling a several thousand dollar player that in order to be of use you have to buy another several thousand dollar piece of hardware that is very large and will take up space then I think it only fair that you deliver what the marketplace expects. The argument that the high end companies step up is a little silly because they have in their own way and this was known to the source makers for some time. There must be a reason why the high end does it this way. IMHO if you can't get the full quality on the audio side that takes away 50% of the experience- would anyone settle for video that was 50% of the full 1080P experience? No way.

Mike I would also disagree about these companies not being innovative. IMHO they have been quite innovative. One would wonder if a company that sells a full system that will go into 30k worth of cost that cannot match the performance result of a player that cost a few hundred dollars is being innovative.

 

[rbienstock]

Because those companies were not built on being innovative as much as being purists for using the best components and layouts that didn't compromise audio quality so their core base of competence was in a different part of the process than the areas that are growing faster now.

And now a third big NO! Meridian and Lexicon, to name just two are hardly purist (indeed they are both shunned by purists, who, by the way also shun anything audio with more than two channels). And in the audio sphere, they are among the most innovative companies around. The real reason is much simpler: in order to effectively create a unit that can decode audio, it needs to have an internet connection because there are rapid changes in various specifications and disk authoring techniques that require frequent updates in order to assure that the decoding will work with every disk. Most of these processors don't have that, while nearly every player does have an internet connection, and in most cases the user is prompted to update when new firmware is available. There's also the transmission issue: HDMI isn't really a high-end connection, but any necessary jitter and other correction necessary to produce high-quality audio is trivial with LPCM, but quite complex with the compressed formats. The reason that the low-end receivers don't have this problem is that they simply don't correct the errors on the assumption that their clients can't tell the difference or don't care.

 

[AnOutsider]

How will the requirement that the BR disc be in the player work if you have a multi-disc blu-ray set (i.e. movie on one disc and extras on the second or maybe more common - a TV series with multiple discs). Will it be sufficient if one disc of the set is in the player or, for example, if I am watching episode 12 of a TV series, will I have to find the specific disc that has episode 12 on it?

Mike, the way it works for multiple disc sets is the discs will become part of the same set when you import them (as usual), but when you go to select a particular episode the available episodes (based on the disc in the tray) are listed in normal print, and all other (non-playable) episodes are in italics. To play something in italics requires putting the disc containing those episodes in the tray.

Regarding special feature discs, I'm still testing.


Jim

huh... well I would've put money on the functionality being more along the lines of 1 disc needed only. Ah well.

I wonder if they would consider something where maybe the disc needs to be inserted once a week or something

 

[rbienstock]

I wonder if they would consider something where maybe the disc needs to be inserted once a week or something

What I would like to see is something like the disk loaner process done for bookmarking. In other words, just let me ship my entire disk collection to Kaleidescape and as long as they have my original disk, let me freely stream the stored copy. On spindles, these disks shouldn't take up too much space, even with as large a collection as mine (I currently have two 400 disk BDP-CX7000ES changers, one of which is completely full and the second of which has room for about 200 more disks).

 

[jmdls]

Here's another post you guys might like. Takes a lot of the gripes and rolls them into one giant gripe-ball that I'm rolling over to Kaleidescape...
http://johnsciacca.webs.com/apps/blog/entries/show/3725400-kaleidescape-owners-say-meh-
John

 

[sshearer]

How will the requirement that the BR disc be in the player work if you have a multi-disc blu-ray set (i.e. movie on one disc and extras on the second or maybe more common - a TV series with multiple discs). Will it be sufficient if one disc of the set is in the player or, for example, if I am watching episode 12 of a TV series, will I have to find the specific disc that has episode 12 on it?
[/QUOTE/


Mike, the way it works for multiple disc sets is the discs will become part of the same set when you import them (as usual), but when you go to select a particular episode the available episodes (based on the disc in the tray) are listed in normal print, and all other (non-playable) episodes are in italics. To play something in italics requires putting the disc containing those episodes in the tray.

Regarding special feature discs, I'm still testing.


Jim

That is what I was afraid was going to be the answer. But for this disk in tray requirement, an upgrade to the new Blu-ray player would be a no-brainer for me. If I decide I want to watch a movie after I get in bed, I will then have to get out of bed, go downstairs, find the original disc, put it in the player, go back upstairs and get back in bed. Heaven forbid I should then change my mind and decide I really want to watch a different movie. I guess the upcoming blu-ray changer will help, although that is not an inexpensive solution. I would much rather just write a check to the MPAA for $3,000 and let them authorize my player to watch any movie without having it in the tray. They can even come do an audit anytime they want. [rant mode off]

Scott

 

[cinelife]

The answer on the "Special Features" discs is that the actual disc WILL need to be in the tray in order to play that additional content. It does not automatically link to the Main Feature, likewise to view the Feature when viewing the Special Features, you have to swap the discs.


Jim

 

[dgbuilder]

That is what I was afraid was going to be the answer. But for this disk in tray requirement, an upgrade to the new Blu-ray player would be a no-brainer for me. If I decide I want to watch a movie after I get in bed, I will then have to get out of bed, go downstairs, find the original disc, put it in the player, go back upstairs and get back in bed. Heaven forbid I should then change my mind and decide I really want to watch a different movie. I guess the upcoming blu-ray changer will help, although that is not an inexpensive solution. I would much rather just write a check to the MPAA for $3,000 and let them authorize my player to watch any movie without having it in the tray. They can even come do an audit anytime they want. [rant mode off]
Scott

Well ranted. I could have written this post verbatim. This is the heart of the issue that K missed (or had to avoid) with their BR "solution". Why not use a "Digital Copy" type solution instead of the inelegant "vault" concept??

 

[cinelife]

Well ranted. I could have written this post verbatim. This is the heart of the issue that K missed (or had to avoid) with their BR "solution". Why not use a "Digital Copy" type solution instead of the inelegant "vault" concept??

K didn't miss the point, the point was made very clear after years of litigation. If you want to be arguably legal, the physical disc must be present during playback, not a digital copy (isn't that what we have on the Server?).


Jim

 

[AnOutsider]

What I would like to see is something like the disk loaner process done for bookmarking. In other words, just let me ship my entire disk collection to Kaleidescape and as long as they have my original disk, let me freely stream the stored copy. On spindles, these disks shouldn't take up too much space, even with as large a collection as mine (I currently have two 400 disk BDP-CX7000ES changers, one of which is completely full and the second of which has room for about 200 more disks).

There's an idea

The answer on the "Special Features" discs is that the actual disc WILL need to be in the tray in order to play that additional content. It does not automatically link to the Main Feature, likewise to view the Feature when viewing the Special Features, you have to swap the discs.


Jim

boo. hiss.

 

[dgbuilder]

I did not mean to imply that K had failed in their legal analysis, rather that their current BR product offering has, IMHO, failed to deliver a product consistent witht the elegance of their previous product releases.

 

[cinelife]

I did not mean to imply that K had failed in their legal analysis, rather that their current BR product offering has, IMHO, failed to deliver a product consistent witht the elegance of their previous product releases.

Apparently you are not alone in that opinion! (That's a friendly, not sarcastic comment.)


Jim

 

[Mr.Poindexter]

Mike I would also disagree about these companies not being innovative. IMHO they have been quite innovative. One would wonder if a company that sells a full system that will go into 30k worth of cost that cannot match the performance result of a player that cost a few hundred dollars is being innovative.

If you are going to distill performance as a single feature, then yes the expensive unit does not do what a lower cost mainstream unit does. (Are we talking about Meridian, Halcro or Kaleidescape? Maybe all of them?)

But they do have a lot of other features and areas they excel in.

As always, if you rely on the other guy to do part of the job for you, you are stuck with the chance that he is relying on you to do it.

Are you implying that Kaleidescape is not being innovative because they lack the one feature you need? I can understand being miffed, but I would find it hard to say that they are not being innovative just for that.

 

[JerryL]

Yes Mike. Its a lack of innovation to market a system to the high end that cannot fulfill its mission. Its like saying here is a nice Rolls Royce but we've put on really skinny tires so don't go around a corner. Oh by the way, for the tires to roll you need to buy a second set of tires which is not included in the price of the car so the car is actually quite useless until you buy the second set.

 

[JerryL]

John nice blog. I would be interested to see what Kaleidescapes response is to our carping but in the end we are but a few clients and I suspect they have done the calculus and figured they would rather have everyone but if they lose a few of us then so be it.

I completely agree with rbienstock.

The problem here is simple- K isn't big enough to move the BR association to allow for the proper implimentation so they have this kind of nutty approach. It might work for some but it won't work for me. Supposing that they didn't need a disc in a tray then you have the problem that the player doesn't really put out HD Audio in the format that many high end audio systems (you know, the things that would actually benefit from HD audio!) can handle.

Its kind of like if the video quality was not really very good but it was good enough. I am assuming the video quality will be very good to excellent because they have in the past had good playback at least in 480i over HDMI land.

Also Im not saying Kaleidescape has not been innovative in the past but now I have to call a spade a spade and this is an overpriced cobbled together media server where we are the ones being asked to pay the price because Kaleidescape could not achieve an elegant solution. So the answer is simple. No Sale here.