NEWS: New Kaleidescape "M-Class" players announced, with Blu-ray support

[cinelife]

....Oh- and does K have a list of recommended "nuclear powered" routers that would give the best possible performance for the K system?

They don't recommend equipment, but they may tell you what "they" use (mostly Dell, IIRC).

I moved away from Dell (the enterprise level stuff) and went to Pakedge which I've found to be the most reliable. (I liked it so much I had my installers move all switches and routers to Pakedge's component's, which resulted in no "call backs" for networking issues.)

Jim

 

[ptrubey]

At first blush, this doesn't do a whole lot for me now. I already have a blu-ray player where I need it. I can buy dvd/blu-ray combo packs (or even separate disks) so that I can view my movies in SD in most of the house, and use my existing blu-ray player for the theater. When the carousel comes out, sure, I'll get that and a K blu-ray player or two, but until then, it isn't worth an upgrade. If/when K supports unencrypted blu-rays (for home movies), that'll be worth an upgrade of a few players.

To me, this announcement is nice for new installs, but doesn't help the rest of us until the carousel comes out.

 

[JerryL]

This is the less emotional version of what Im thinking.

In the end the lack of Meridian support (no LPCM over HDMI of the lossless) is the biggest killer for me personally. Then I begin to think of the other issues and it snowballs.

 

[iansilv]

iansilv, why introduce a new server to increase the bandwidth off a discontinued server? A kserver 2500 can stream 5 BluRays at the same time but that was an old 5U chassis.

The KServer 2000 is the one with issues but that is like 6-7 years old.

Multiple ethernet ports are not going to be needed on the server. GigE is pretty beefy - you think we are going to have people streaming more than 5 BluRays at once off a single on of the current servers?

Ah! My bad- I thought I had read here that only 2 simultaneous streams of bluray could be sent.

 

[AnOutsider]

This is a very clunky solution- the anthesis of the K experience so far and I for one will not spend a dime on such an inelegant solution.

.....


The point on the enclosure is that if you are going to spend in excess of 10k for new gear, shouldn't you get the full experience?

....

So for now we have a mega buck system that in order to play a BR disc we have to put it in a tray, and if we want to play something the UI says is in there, we might have to run around the house to find the physical disc and put it in the tray- nothing different from the person with the Samsung player, except that the Samsung might decode to PCM and handle 3D and cost 1/100th the price.

......

IMHO K should include these vault devices with the costs of the players but I suspect that will not be the case. It will be an added cost of several thousands of dollars per vault (Im just guessing here based on the price of a new K player).

...

Guess what, the world is very different than when the original K system and business model were developed and this implementation of a BR streaming device is not compelling.

....

Sorely disappointed in this- this is an installers dream but the user who cares about high quality and elegant implementation for a reasonable price nightmare.

My thoughts exactly, especially the bits in red. As I mentioned in another thread, first Tivo leads the way and subsequently gets lazy with lackluster product "upgrades" and now, the once invincible-in-my-eyes Kaleidescape.

For Bluray support at least, I think it's time to "go rogue" as Mr P put it.

 

[iansilv]

This will not send the lossless soundtrack to a Meridian 621. It will send the decoded core audio though.

Wait a sec- if the player is only decoding the audio stream, doesn't it still remain in an original, lossless digital form, retaining i identical form the lossless quality, and this can be sent to the Meridian 621?

If someone from K could comment on this and clear up any confusion that would be great. Here is the Meridian product data sheet for the 621:

http://www.meridian-audio.com/media/105736/hd621-ds2_1.pdf

 

[iansilv]

When player decode (default) is selected as the HDMI audio decode mode, all audio outputs are active at once. For Blu-ray movies, this option mixes movie, picture-in-picture and button sounds, audio output over HDMI is 48 kHz PCM, up to 5.1 channels, and audio output over optical/coax is DTS or stereo PCM. For DVD movies, audio output over HDMI is 48 kHz PCM, up to 5.1 channels, and audio output over optical/coax is passed through (Dolby Digital, DTS, stereo PCM).

For DTS-HD Master Audio, the lossy DTS core of the DTS-HD Master Audio soundtrack is used when player decode mode is selected.

When bitstream pass-through is selected as the HDMI audio decode mode, only the HDMI audio output is active during movie playback. All other audio outputs are disabled. The unaltered movie audio track is sent for decoding in the receiver. For Blu-ray movies, picture-in-picture audio and button sounds will not be heard.

OK found this- why would this not allow the lossless audio to be sent through to a Meridian 621?

Additionally, this is a question for K- would it be possible to have the player switch from player decode mode to bitstream mode when the movie starts, and then back again when the movie ends, so button presses and what not are heard when needed, but there is no compromise in sound quality when the movie is viewed?

 

[JerryL]

Ian- the setup is not "compatible" with our Meridian setup in so far as if you want to listen to the lossless soundtrack in all its glory. What K is telling us is they will either pass along the lossless bitstream so it can be decoded later on, like what you get in many receivers; or you can have the K BR player decode the core audio to PCM. See this for more- basically its scaled down audio- not a good thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DTS-HD_Master_Audio

They don't allow the lossless audio to go out in PCM to our 621 because their player cannot decode it. I cannot believe this was omitted because of size of the player considerations. I just don't think this was a priority for K for whatever reason. Doesn't make me feel confident that we share the same priorities: best possible quality playback.

Now I have always felt Meridian should have included decoding in the 621, which they dont. But from a very early time when we began listing our wishes for this Blu Ray player I said I would require decoding of the lossless formats to PCM as one of my main drivers of whether or not I would feel compelled to step up to the new player. And Kaleidescape has not delivered a feature that is available on many many many products.

 

[iansilv]

Ian- the setup is not "compatible" with our Meridian setup in so far as if you want to listen to the lossless soundtrack in all its glory. What K is telling us is they will either pass along the lossless bitstream so it can be decoded later on, like what you get in many receivers; or you can have the K BR player decode the core audio to PCM. See this for more- basically its scaled down audio- not a good thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DTS-HD_Master_Audio

They don't allow the lossless audio to go out in PCM to our 621 because their player cannot decode it. I cannot believe this was omitted because of size of the player considerations. I just don't think this was a priority for K for whatever reason. Doesn't make me feel confident that we share the same priorities: best possible quality playback.

Now I have always felt Meridian should have included decoding in the 621, which they dont. But from a very early time when we began listing our wishes for this Blu Ray player I said I would require decoding of the lossless formats to PCM as one of my main drivers of whether or not I would feel compelled to step up to the new player. And Kaleidescape has not delivered a feature that is available on many many many products.

Ah-ha- ok- so the 621 needs PCM only and cannot accept True HD or DTS master directly- got it.

Well, as Will Farrell said in The Goods, "F@#$!"

Kaliedescape- could this be added as a software upgrade?

 

[Mars]

I find it stunning that this level of Blu-ray solution won't decode DTS Master Audio so that you can have the lossless format if you don't have PrePro that can decode (which mine cannot) - the Oppo does this as well as almost all new blu-ray players out there - what am I missing?

Also, it is disappointing that (my understanding) that the trade-in is only through August and therefore won't apply towards the bulk loader if it comes out in 2011. If I read correctly, the bulk/loader/carousel can be used in lieu of a player. Why would I want to pay the >$3,000 TWICE to have a true server solution.(once to get a player now and again to get the carousel so as not to keep putting discs in the tray). Sounds like we get 50% for a trade-in of a 1080p player...we should be able to get that same 50% if we want to wait on a carousel.... IMO

 

[Mr.Poindexter]

Mike,
You and I will have to disagree on this.

As to getting LPCM decoding inside the player- give me a break. How much more space would they need for conversion to LPCM? Oppo does that already and can do so much more so if you swap out the DVD-A/SACD for the K interface stuff its probably even.

And I guarantee you there will be installers who get confused since the enclosures are identical to the earlier products. Perhaps they should have had a blue dot on them or something. If you're charging thousands of dollars for blu ray playback, I think you should provide a little extra sizzle.

Well, first off the Oppo player I have, the BD-83, is a 2U unit, not 1U. If you are going to have a blue ray drive in there, that is going to eat up a lot of room. Also you have to be wary of increasing the depth or you run into the same issues as increasing the height should there be a shallow install on a yacht or a plane. I would think that theater installs the depth of the player is not an issue, but I have no direct experience in marine and aviation installs but space comes at a much higher premium in those places.

As far as installers getting confused - will they not recognize the difference between the DVD and BluRay players and install the wrong one? I don't think so. The back is different enough - RCA jacks alone is pretty obvious vs the BNC's of older players.

With regards to selling the sizzle, if you have to disco up the case of the new player then you are really glossing over the sizzle they are selling.

It is unfortunate that BluRay is causing such a monkeywrench. I would prefer it to be smoother or perhaps have a good idea on how far out direct HD downloads are and/or true BR managed copy are. Time will tell, but I am looking to convert my players over to the new ones and hope the rest of this gets worked out soon enough. Until then, I am still mainly using DVD and will go full steam on BluRay once the BluRay guys get their act together and support media servers.

 

[josh]

To me, it seems that right now (until the vault becomes available) it is going to chew up a LOT of server storage to basically offer 2 benefits---instant play once disc is in tray and the ability to browse/display all of your content on the GUI. One of my "suggestions" to Malcolm was the option to just take a small piece of the Blu-ray data that would then add the disc to your collection but not archive the entire disc. It wouldn't speed up load times, but you could see your entire collection without eating up 37 Gigs per disc. Thoughts...?
John

I have to agree with this suggestion... the same thing occurred to me. Why not let it scan my disc, but NOT copy the whole movie, but just add the title, cover art, and other metadata to my collection? Save me 40Gb with what I believe would be little loss of functionality.

Once the vault/reader is released, then let me decide if I want "full import" or "metadata import" for each of my titles. Full import copies the image to the server and keeps the disc in the vault and enables full multi-room playback... "Metadata import" lets me remember I have it, show on my lists, but will not take any server space, letting me play back from disc by asking me to find and insert the disc. Same adherence to (dumb) studio demands, but now with better utility and flexibility for the users?

 

[Mr.Poindexter]

I find it stunning that this level of Blu-ray solution won't decode DTS Master Audio so that you can have the lossless format if you don't have PrePro that can decode (which mine cannot) - the Oppo does this as well as almost all new blu-ray players out there - what am I missing?

Also, it is disappointing that (my understanding) that the trade-in is only through August and therefore won't apply towards the bulk loader if it comes out in 2011. If I read correctly, the bulk/loader/carousel can be used in lieu of a player. Why would I want to pay the >$3,000 TWICE to have a true server solution.(once to get a player now and again to get the carousel so as not to keep putting discs in the tray). Sounds like we get 50% for a trade-in of a 1080p player...we should be able to get that same 50% if we want to wait on a carousel.... IMO

What is missing is probably room for 8 extra RCA jacks on the back of the player for 7.1 decoding. My Lexicon MC-12 won't decode DTS-MA because I didn't pay for the latest tradein but I don't blame the player for that. I find it stunning that a pro-pro at the level of Meridian won't decode the format.

The bulk loader will likely be a reader/loader and not a player, much like the older bulk loader. No price has been established, nor specs so we don't know what to expect on the "vault." I think it would be hard to offer a tradein on a product that isn't shipping yet, has no definite ship date or price. Perhaps they will offer a tradein on that until when it ships - who knows, but if you have a player and are trading it in for another player, are you wanting to trade in one player for credit on two units? At any rate, who is to say they won't be offering some form of tradein credit on that unit when it comes out, especially if it is also a player? They have extended their 5U->3U tradein numerous times.

 

[tweaks]

I was actually one of the seemingly small minority here who were happy with K's announcement- until I read about the PCM issues for Meridian owners. This is a major concern for me and, for the moment, has caused me to reconsider what otherwise would have been a sure upgrade.

 

[JerryL]

Ah-ha- ok- so the 621 needs PCM only and cannot accept True HD or DTS master directly- got it.

Well, as Will Farrell said in The Goods, "F@#$!"

Kaliedescape- could this be added as a software upgrade?

I doubt it because I believe you need the hardware to do the decoding to PCM and they don't have the decoder chips. I wonder if they have the HP and the will to write a software decoder. Its probably obscenely expensive and not worth it to them. In the end how many people will they lose with this omission? A few of us on the website here- my guess is they did the math and decided that they were better served with risking losing us. As far as I am concerned then this is their loss.

For the record the 621 can take in the truehd/ master audio bitstreams but it can't do anything with them besides pass them along.

A nice solution for us would be if we had a black box out there that would decode these formats to PCM and pass this along over HDMI. I'm unaware of any such device.

 

[JerryL]

Mike, I understand many of your points. The bottom line is nowdays people expect these features. I also think its nuts that Meridian doesnt decode at least in the 621. They say they don't decode these new formats in the 861 because they want to keep HDMI and its jitter away- hence the 621. I suspect they just didn't want to pay for the decoding chips that most BR machines do anyway and they must have felt most do a good enough job. My experience says yes they do.

As to 1U vs 2U- most of us can find 1U space in a rack but to add that vault- thats going to be a big mama of a unit, and frankly necessary.

I agree with you about the 8 analog out jacks but the funny thing is for those of us with Meridian setups they are not necessary what we just need is decoding to PCM so it can go out over HDMI.

If the K setup would decode PCM and if they would not charge what I am expecting them to charge for a Vault ($2k+) I would not have strong objections. As it is, my Kaleidescape system will be happy not going Blu.

For now

 

[Mr.Poindexter]

Well Jerry, if they added the decoding but not the jacks, they would have added something for only Meridian owners or are there other processors in the same boat?

I can find 1U extra, no problem, but I have seen some installs where they have 4-8 players and a matrix AV distribution system and that entails getting 4-8U more when it isn't there - a real issue - especially on a yacht where there probably isn't a spare closet handy for the extra players or a vault. I suspect the yacht would just stick with DVD in that case.

For myself, I can just put the vault in another room. All I need to do is run power and ethernet to it. Maybe I can rack it up in my garage system.

I do not expect to see the vault priced at $500 like some people might hope. It won't be a Sony DVD changer. Expect to see it priced similar to what it will be - a computer connected BluRay carousel with 2 drives. For new installs, they might not even mind it so much as it will double as their bulk loader for the initial DVD loading. Fill it with your DVD and CD collection first, then after they are all loaded, clean it out and repeat until you are done with everything but BluRay. Finally, load it up with BluRays and you are done. If explained like that, it doesn't sound so kludgy.

 

[Mr.Poindexter]

Powerfile makes a 500 BluRay vault:
http://www.powerfile.com/archive-software-26.html

 

[brodricj]

Ian- the setup is not "compatible" with our Meridian setup in so far as if you want to listen to the lossless soundtrack in all its glory...

Same same for the Halcro SSP. I have recently invested a lot of money in a Halcro SSP in anticipation of the new K-player supporting lossless PCM. Heck, it doesn't even support lossless 5.1 PCM let alone 7.1 PCM anything. Never in my wildest dreams did I consider K would not be supporting lossless PCM in a new player.

My Halcro stays. It sounds awsome with lossless PCM from my PS3. There is no place in my system for a new Kaleidescape player that can't send lossless PCM to my Halcro SSP.

About some of the other comments:

1. I like the form factor of the new player, cosmetically the same as the old player is fine by me.

2. I don't like the change to RCA connectors. So this was to appease the dealer/installer market so they didn't have to use a $5 BNC to RCA adapter. Well, now I'd have to go and change my considerably more expensive than $5 BNC cables for RCA.

3. Having to have the BR disc in the tray to play a movie is not much different to my existing capability with the PS3. Why couldn't they at least let you import a BR title to the server and have it stay there for 7 days (before self erasing) without needing the disc to be in the tray?? I could import 7 days worth of future watching and then have the whole familiar Kaleidescape experience available to me for the next week. I'd be more than happy with that arrangement.

4. Why has there been no mention in the forum so far about the Region A and B issue??? I know, because all you guys only have Region A discs. What about the many international K customers who hold libraries of mixed region content. I'm not buying 2 players!! Heck, I'm not even going to buy one player

 

[JerryL]

That big 500 BR machine looks fantastic. Youre right of course Mike, if I was K and I was building in decoding Id make sure to put analog outs. I would expect the Vault to be priced like any other K gear- at a premium to your ordinary gear. The problem I have with it is that they are making us pay for the fact that they cannot work an agreement with the BR legal people and so we don't just pay for more HD storage we might need but we have to pay for warhousing these BR discs which is something ripping to a HD was supposed to eliminate.

Good points brodricj, so its not just we nutty Meridian people. Incidentally, I would think there are K systems in many high end setups and its a little embarrassing when a several year old PS3 has a better feature set- AND supports 3D... (or will)....