Views on Kaleidescape's secrecy policies

[nineball]

This has turned into quite an interesting thread!

I have to say I started reading this latest thread about whether K should be more open or not and felt similar to Jerry - Kaleidescape owes us nothing and we shouldn't expect to know future plans.

But Peter (Nineball) has made some points that have really made me think. And it made me remember another good example to ponder.

I'm a Tesla owner as well as an early reservation holder for the Model S. Now I know that Tesla, even with their new model, are still an expensive, premium, limited-availability product, but I wouldn't put them in the super-elite level of a Bentley.

Yet Tesla has been pretty extraordinary about giving lots of info on their future direction, changes they're making, changes they're CONSIDERING, and new features to expect. They have a blog about it, they post on the user forums, they email customers and prospective customers. Owners and owners-to-be get a ton of info about features that will come, ideas they're working on etc.

I think Tesla and Kaleidescape are pretty comparable companies... Tesla is a better match than Bentley. Both Tesla and Kaleidescape are appealing to relatively wealthy early adopters, both need to ally fears of technology problems, possible issues or obsolescence if the right decisions aren't made, and both companies are small enough that owners need to worry if the company will still be around to support the product.

But Tesla is worlds different in how it communicates. See this corporate blog as an example, and look through the archives. Owners can get a glimpse into future products, new features, modifications, how things are going with financing at the company, reassurances, even worries or concerns from the CEO and team. They engage the users, reassure, communicate well. They invite owners and reservation holders into the company to see prototypes, see the manufacturing process, meet the execs and engineers, ask questions. They hold events to show their latest features and prototypes even showing you the other rejected prototypes, features, etc. and why they chose what they did, all the time asking for feedback.

So I think I've come around 180 degrees towards Peter's view. The company could become less secretive, more open and engaging, and would likely gain more loyalty, passion, and evangelism for its products... similar to what Tesla enjoys.

--josh

Wow Josh what an excellent reference. I must admit I haven't been in a Tesla but that site would certainly go a long way to get me to look at it and it displays all the values that I believe are culturally sound. I also find your summary very good.....not because it aligns with my concern but it just fits the issue perfectly for me. I have to admit that I would be very excited if the prospect of downloadable media were to happen....especially on the Kaleidescape platform.

I realize its new territory for them but IF and its a big IF they are able to maintain BD quality then I'm there for them in the long haul. It should also be the single island refuge for others who care about quality first and foremost. Think about the possibilities for early adopters to jump to 4K or even 8K when material becomes available. What a fabulous evolution to be a part of and I know of no better platform to make those possibilities happen. The next key identifier for Kaleidescape is going to be quality. It will give them safe haven from the appetite of the Netflix or apples. If you want fog go to Apple if you want bit for bit clarity come to Kaleidescape.

By the way would you ever think of driving your Tesla in snow??? Can you drive it in snow?

Peter

 

[JerryL]

You might not be surprised to learn I think companies blogging about their goings on is a little bit nuts. Why would you tell your competitors what is going on?

Peter, I have every reason to believe K will be able to deliver bit accurate blu ray quality downloads. But it might require patience in terms of how long a download takes for some of us.

 

[josh]

At the moment it feels a bit like being outside the (locked) doors of the chocolate factory...!

Good metaphor. I know how you feel; I'm out here looking in with you. In case there's any doubt, Kaleidescape long ago stopped having anything to do with this forum. they no longer give me any advanced info on products and they removed me from their beta testing program probably a year ago. They used to treat me well, but I noticed quite clearly that it stopped when I either allowed posts that were critical or made statements myself they didn't like. (nothing ever leaked or was revealed earlier than they wanted, it's only that they don't like some topics here.) Too bad. If I let them control this board and dictate what gets posted here, no one would find it valuable. they can use their website for that purpose.

Fortunately, they still give info to some other key members of the forum, and allow them to post some news here on occasion... so we're fortunate to have others here who have strong relations with the company.

I love the products, but will be the first to agree that some of the ways they choose to operate are pretty odd. I think you are right that they've been burned by the legal process and have been forced to be more secretive and suspicious. It's a good explanation, because the people there, one-on-one, have always struck me to be nice, genuine individuals.

I've stopped caring about it. shrug my shoulders and spend my time worrying about things that matter in life.

 

[josh]

By the way would you ever think of driving your Tesla in snow??? Can you drive it in snow?

Peter

At the risk of getting us way off topic... Living in the SF Bay Area, hadn't had to deal with that question, but plenty of owners do indeed use their Teslas in the snow. As long as you're not dumb enough to think that so-called "All Season" tires can really live up to that name, and put some real snow tires on and it'll do just fine. Surprisingly good in some cases. Personally, I'll wait until the 4WD Model X crossover comes out to really tackle snow conditions.

 

[nineball]

You might not be surprised to learn I think companies blogging about their goings on is a little bit nuts. Why would you tell your competitors what is going on?

Peter, I have every reason to believe K will be able to deliver bit accurate blu ray quality downloads. But it might require patience in terms of how long a download takes for some of us.

First up Jerry, I don't think Kaleidescape has any substantive competitors in this space. Second, the entire world, by now, knows what the aspirations are so I don't think a detailed roadmap would be of assistance to a competitor at this point. Besides apple has already done it but not at the quality level that Kaleidescape is contemplating.

I have never suggested that the company should be blogging to the whole world but I have argued that they should be having a better dialog and connection to their customer base. If that message to them comes from a public blog then thats a great use of this technology!!!I for one will applaud them for listening.

As excited as I am about the prospects for the new store functionality I am not too worried about the bandwidth issues in the long run. In the short run, if the catalog is good I plan to approach my internet provider for a special program for overnight downloads to compensate for any limitations I might have with my existing 250 gig monthly cap. In the long run bandwidth will not be a relevant consideration either from a cost or performance point of view.

And while I am on the subject of bandwidth, I have been trying to type this missive while listening to my wife's latest tirade directed to people who live on a computer keyboard. It feels like I have been at this for 6 hours........

Peter

 

[nineball]

At the risk of getting us way off topic... Living in the SF Bay Area, hadn't had to deal with that question, but plenty of owners do indeed use their Teslas in the snow. As long as you're not dumb enough to think that so-called "All Season" tires can really live up to that name, and put some real snow tires on and it'll do just fine. Surprisingly good in some cases. Personally, I'll wait until the 4WD Model X crossover comes out to really tackle snow conditions.

You are so very right with respect to 'all season' tires not being adequate for winter driving. Sorry, you are right we probably shouldn't let the automotive talk take us too far from the subject.....but thanks for the response.

Peter

 

[AnOutsider]

You might not be surprised to learn I think companies blogging about their goings on is a little bit nuts. Why would you tell your competitors what is going on?

Peter, I have every reason to believe K will be able to deliver bit accurate blu ray quality downloads. But it might require patience in terms of how long a download takes for some of us.

I'd have to weigh in with Peter on this one. Being a tesla reservation holder, I know they aren't perfect, but they do in fact share information when they can and its appreciated, encouraging and makes me even more eager for what they have to offer. Also, even if they don't share something publicly, if you're so motivated you can reach out to someone at the company and get information. They also listen to customer feedback and very often change policies or add features based on it.

With kaleidescape, it does feel like its a big boys club with little boys allowed in at the lower ranks to bring some money in. Info to the few, silence to the many -- which may be fine and traditional, but it doesn't endear me to the brand in the least. I don't recommend kaleidescape to friends, but I do recommend tesla -- and it isn't a price thing because both are pretty expensive toys.

 

[nineball]

I'd have to weigh in with Peter on this one. Being a tesla reservation holder, I know they aren't perfect, but they do in fact share information when they can and its appreciated, encouraging and makes me even more eager for what they have to offer. Also, even if they don't share something publicly, if you're so motivated you can reach out to someone at the company and get information. They also listen to customer feedback and very often change policies or add features based on it.

With kaleidescape, it does feel like its a big boys club with little boys allowed in at the lower ranks to bring some money in. Info to the few, silence to the many -- which may be fine and traditional, but it doesn't endear me to the brand in the least. I don't recommend kaleidescape to friends, but I do recommend tesla -- and it isn't a price thing because both are pretty expensive toys.

Ironically Bentley just called me personally for a product development session. I can't believe the timing given this conversational thread!!

My intent in raising the customer relationship issue was never intended to develop into a Kaleidescape bashing session. Part of my business DNA has always been to seek out best practices in people, technologies and organizations. Its just ingrained and I have not been able to find any kind of rehabilitation to rid me of this obsession. Retirement doesn't seem to have blunted that perspective in the least.

Kaleidescape just continues to stoke the fires of that obsession for a bunch of reasons. They have an excellent product so they get top marks for science and engineering. They would move from top marks to outstanding with an audio tweak thats been mentioned in the thread already.

I have had telephone contact with company personnel who shall remain safely anonymous but they were courteous, helpful and very respectful. Certainly folks I would enjoy having in my employ if I were not retired!!!

None of that is, what I would describe as company bashing.......all of it good really. And so far, I would be happy with that description of any company I was running if it came from a customer who was using my product.

What follows however are areas for improvement that I believe are on the critical path for continued success for this company: Imagineering and Brand.

IMAGINEERING
Kaleidescape is unique. They own the space. They really don't have a core competitor either for their technology or the customer. The upside is that they don't have any distractions forcing them to go to war with peers to take them off their game. This is a tremendous advantage in long term survivability.

Technology can be cloned......imagination, not so much. There is much room for improvement here but the formulas for success demand a total gestalt of contributors that include customers. I have heard the company and even some of its dealers give credence to the notion that Kaleidescape's legal woes have been a justification for its lack of imagination in the last few years (my interpretation, not their exact words). There is much more I could say on this subject but it would probably just muddy the waters so suffice it to say that a significant tweak is required in corporate culture to promote the imagineering of downstream possibilities that must show respect for the customer in its delivery.

BRAND
The brand I believe is at serious risk of loosing its cachet with its existing customer base. The message that is current for the company goes something like.......look, we have been seriously sideswiped by certain industry players through a legal challenge so please give us a break while we try and defend ourselves through this legal quagmire. It is totally unfair and groundless but we really can't talk about it until its over aaaaannnd please keep buying products through this period of uncertainty. We cant really talk about it for obvious reasons but trust us.

That may not be whats intended by the company for sure, but that's whats out there. If most of the consideration and dialog has been through dealers then I would strongly suggest that the company's sense of the market perspective is seriously impaired. I'm NOT trying to disintermediate the dealers here. You guys have a very important role in this companies growth and success. And for the greater part I think you are doing a great job for the company.

My point is that there is no real ' Kaleidescape ' connection with the customer base outside of a poorly crafted web site and a suite of unidimensional marketing leaflets that add no real passion or depth to the customer experience.

I get absolutely no 'Brand' identifiers that there is any real respect for the customer beyond the belief that the products should speak for themselves. Until the company incorporates this respect for customers deep into its DNA they will be shorting themselves from a potential for success that can actually raise the bar for the entire industry.

None of this I hope should be interpreted as truly derogatory for the company but really encouragement to realize a potential for success that should be due to a market leader.

Again if my wording has been poorly crafted I apologize however the principles still stand........

Peter

 

[BigHat]

Great post Peter.

Love of K has united some very bright and experienced business folks here. No axe to grind with K either, but I think you make some very good points I hope they consider addressing. It would be good for them.

 

[djb_rh]

With kaleidescape, it does feel like its a big boys club with little boys allowed in at the lower ranks to bring some money in. Info to the few, silence to the many -- which may be fine and traditional, but it doesn't endear me to the brand in the least. I don't recommend kaleidescape to friends, but I do recommend tesla -- and it isn't a price thing because both are pretty expensive toys.

Wait, you *don't* recommend Kaleidescape to friends?!?

I can't even comprehend that. They have no competition. The only reason I can't recommend them much is simply because *most* of the people I know can't afford it. Price is a non-starter. But to anyone I know who can afford it, I say "go for it" because not only is it the only game in town, I know they'll be satisfied with the product, PERIOD END OF STORY.

Can you explain what you *do* say when someone says "hey man, I really want some kind of media server so I can watch any of my DVD/Blu-Ray content in any room...what should I get?"

As for this communication issue, well, wow. You guys are blowing this WAY up. Kaleidescape is no different than a TON of other companies in this respect. If anything they've released TOO MUCH information, because the fact that we know a K-store is coming means people are now whining about "when." And apparently "when" is an issue not entirely in their control since it involves licensing content and we all know that's something that you can THINK you have a deal worked out on only to have the rug pulled out from under you at the last second.

This kind of thing is *exactly* why Apple is so secretive. It's exactly why a LOT of companies are, in fact. You piss off a LOT more customers when you publish a date and miss it (whether it's in your control or not) than you do by not saying much of anything. Look at many of the different "stories" around Kickstarter based companies...most every one that's published any date and missed it wised up and never published another date again.

My dealer is pretty big with Kaleidescape and yet all I ever hear is "yeah, they've shown us feature XYZ, but we'll let you know when it is available as they don't say squat about when we'll really see it". I actually respect them for sticking to their guns like they do and making sure they never release something half baked *just* so they make a date that they pre-published and then ran into problems.

I know a thing or two about brand marketing...I mean I retired at the ripe old age of 27 because my company sold "free" software. And we used to get complaints along these same lines. Came with the territory...can't please everyone all the time. But this way pleases the most people, that's for sure.

And since I know a thing or two about open source software, I remain amazed that open source projects have yet to come even *close* to Kaleidescape. Especially given how many options there are and how long some of them have been around. It must be that what they do just really isn't that easy....


--Donnie

 

[JerryL]

Donnie, you sum up my feelings very well.

 

[JerryL]

Great post Peter.

Love of K has united some very bright and experienced business folks here. No axe to grind with K either, but I think you make some very good points I hope they consider addressing. It would be good for them.

How would it be good for them? How many more sales would they generate with the change you all are advocating? I submit there wouldn't be a measurable change.

Instead they could generate confusion and even possibly anger among customers.

 

[AnOutsider]

To answer Donnie's question: What I meant with the part of my post you pulled out is that I'll bring up tesla to folks, I won't do that with kscape unless it comes up.

if I'm ASKED ill talk about what I like about kscape, but don't try to sell them on it. It's overkill for most people and honestly, I don't feel it's worth the money it costs. Id tell them to get an apple tv or something that can stream netflix and amazon. That's my opinion, yours may differ.

 

[nineball]

Donnie, you sum up my feelings very well.

Hey guys, I never raised the issue of release dates. I think I stand with everyone else in the forum on that issue......bake it till its ready not before! No one that I have read wants an unfinished or untested product. We are all in agreement there.

Also, expectation management is a whole different subject than the one I raised from the outset. I could go toe to toe with anyone on the subject but that is not the issue in this thread.

The issue is one of customer relationship management and basic respect for customers. I understand that there are those that believe it is not necessary nor required to run this business. If I accept that premise for the moment, can I ask what harm there might be to the company if the senior management of Kaleidescape decided to consult with existing customers? I am NOT talking about budgets, release dates or proprietary business information by the way.

Finally I do want to stress that this discussion is more about exchanging ideas and not about winning or loosing an argument. I wouldn't want to be apart of anything else..........

Peter

 

[djb_rh]

It's my understanding that they do have customers in the beta program. And they do listen to what the dealers tell them. What more do they have to do since they do put that feedback into making the only good product in the segment?

Look, being a more socially engaged company is a good thing if you do it well. I get that. But unless you already have the right mentality and staff on board to do it, it just isn't a switch you turn on and do well. And my point here is why should they? They have no competition to stay in front of. So why take a risk that you might screw it up and cost yourself customers?


--Donnie

 

[MTrueblood]

Personally, I am content to deal with the mystery. I am gratified to know that Kaleidescape has a download store in the works, but I am not tearing out my hair over the release date. In the meantime I am perfectly delighted with my system. For now I will enjoy it fully, adding storage as the need arises. On the basis of past performance, K's future offerings will surely be a treat. Isn't it great to have them wrestle with all of those technical decisions? I just have to watch movies.

 

[Mr.Poindexter]

1% of a small number is an extremely small number. Your'e upset that they haven't told 368 people their plans? (That's the number of members that have visited in the last year)


Kevin D.

Wait, are you saying we are ALL 1%ers? Great, now we have to worry about the occupy guys camping out in our front yards. They think they understand us, but I told them they will never understand me until they walk a mile in my living room.

 

[Mr.Poindexter]

You might not be surprised to learn I think companies blogging about their goings on is a little bit nuts. Why would you tell your competitors what is going on?

Peter, I have every reason to believe K will be able to deliver bit accurate blu ray quality downloads. But it might require patience in terms of how long a download takes for some of us.

I tell my competitors what is going on. Out of my entire industry, I am certainly the most open but that is just a philosophical way I believe in. I am not afraid of a fair fight. While it is a little harder to do, there is nothing quite as satisfying as telling somebody you are going to hike on 2 and run it up the middle and then do it. It might give your compeitors a boost, but it also shows a massive amount of confidence that, when backed up with performance, gives a massive amount of authority in the industry.

My business is different from Kaleidescape's and what applies to me might not apply to them, but it has been my experience that I have never lost money because of well informed competitors. Largely, it has been the opposite - idiots who don't understand the business but try to get into it are the ones that cost me money. I do not understand the ins and outs of their business as well as they do and my ideas might be great for them - something they have not thought of, or they might be terrible because I didn't consider aspects of the business they know about and I don't.

To put my farm experience into our analogies, comparing Kaleidescape to Rolls Royce or Tesla is an apples and oranges comparison. I do suspect that somewhere, there might be a RR owner that now feels a bit left our because he wasn't taken to dinner and given inside info on the new products coming.

 

[JerryL]

To me blogging or not does not define a fair fight.

Its your right if you want to put up on line what you want to do. However, I wouldn't and I respect a company that doesn't want to put everything out there. I certainly understand it. I can't believe no one here would not understand it. Also we've been discussing this in the context of keeping things away from competitors. Its also possible Kaleidescape just doesnt have the resources to do an online presence the way you want it to. And again, I don't care. I wouldn't affect my decision to buy the system pro or con.

I try not to push products on my friends. When we are together we don't usually get too caught up in things- but if someone was to ask me about my media server Id be happy to tell them. The good and the not as good.

As to client relationships- I have never had a slight problem with how Kaleidescape treats me as a customer. I really don't need them to take me out to dinner. But getting the high res audio formats decoded would be nice. That would affect my decision and spurred me to make my own. Btw- I put that out there for anyone who wanted to use it. But thats me- and thats me in this situation.

No analogy is perfect but if I may make an observation, Tesla makes an expensive luxury product that you could probably replicate in some fashion for less money but it wouldnt be as nice. Kaleidescape is similar in that regard. Both also appeal to early adopters- though these days Im not sure how much that will be the case with Kaleidescape.

 

[JerryL]

Another point is perhaps Kaleidescape simply doesn't want to dedicate the resources to blogging or related activities. If I were doing such things I would be very worried about any adverse legal consequences of misstatements etc.

As a clarification, I think its one thing if you want to use all this new tech as a marketing tool, but I would be very careful about it.

And its not like Kaleidescape hasn't gone to trade shows in the past and has disclosed things that might be coming- the download store is a great example- obviously someone got information and it made its way here. So I guess I have a problem with the title of this thread- it implies (at least to me) that Kaleidescape is like some kind of Communist Party. It just doesn't seem that way to me.