Views on Kaleidescape's secrecy policies

[nineball]

Those who know more than the average bear are not allowed to speak about it.

You should not have to wait much longer.

I look forward to a fun Christmas this year.

I don't understand the need or at least the implied need for all this secrecy and suspense. Why the lack of information and guidance to the existing owners group? Its almost disrespectful of the company to treat customers who have spent 70K+ on products with virtually the same status as a complete stranger, especially when I suspect we represent the greater part of the economic future for this company.

Peter

 

[JerryL]

Peter I think we've had this discussion before. While we are customers, we are not shareholders or board members. I think we have to wait to see what they do. They must have reasons to keep things close to the vest. Im sure when they are ready they will tell us.

 

[digitalvd]

@JerryL: But there were not many "news" in the last year. And the problems with the DVD CCA. So I stopped all my Kaleidescape invests.

 

[Mr.Poindexter]

I don't understand the need or at least the implied need for all this secrecy and suspense. Why the lack of information and guidance to the existing owners group? Its almost disrespectful of the company to treat customers who have spent 70K+ on products with virtually the same status as a complete stranger, especially when I suspect we represent the greater part of the economic future for this company.

Peter

I agree, and yet Apple still won't let me see the next iPad, iPhone, etc.

If we had the information, then they would have to be just like me in the front seat listening to my kids every five minutes with "Are we there yet?"

 

[JerryL]

If you stopped all your investments in Kaleidescape gear then why come here?

Exactly Mr. Poindexter. Why doesn't Apple of the iPhone 6 or iPad Mini. Shame on them for not valuing their customers...

Guys- if you don't like it, don't buy it. If it has a problem you are entitled to good service and repair. But I don't see how customers are entitled to knowing future plans.

 

[sbutter]

My guess is that they are still negotiating with the studios.

Everyone is waiting for Apple TV and I bet they are also still negotiating with the networks.

 

[Onnkar]

Will be worth it.

Personally, I'd rather wait a bit longer and have k get it right.
Nothing worse than a buggy and incomplete product.

 

[cinelife]

K does not move a product into the marketplace until they believe it is ready. Unlike some manufacturer's, they do not use their customers to Beta test components (unless that is clearly stated).

There are many components to the K Store, some mentioned above. It is my understanding that the store is very close to opening, but a few small details are still be completed. It should not be much longer. Like most of you, I'm happy to wait until it works as advertised.


Jim

 

[nineball]

K does not move a product into the marketplace until they believe it is ready. Unlike some manufacturer's, they do not use their customers to Beta test components (unless that is clearly stated).

There are many components to the K Store, some mentioned above. It is my understanding that the store is very close to opening, but a few small details are still be completed. It should not be much longer. Like most of you, I'm happy to wait until it works as advertised.


Jim

If you stopped all your investments in Kaleidescape gear then why come here?

Exactly Mr. Poindexter. Why doesn't Apple of the iPhone 6 or iPad Mini. Shame on them for not valuing their customers...

Guys- if you don't like it, don't buy it. If it has a problem you are entitled to good service and repair. But I don't see how customers are entitled to knowing future plans.

Jerry, I am a huge fan of the technology, otherwise I wouldn't be here. I am not a troll. I am an owner who is committed to the product suite. I raise the issue here as I hope that the folks from Kaleidescape do surf this site as I believe you have assured me in the past that they do.

The comparison to Apple just doesn't work here. Kaleidescape is the 'Bentley' of the home theater world. They are in a niche business of providing a best of class experience through technology that really doesn't have a comparable offering in the marketplace. I get that and I truly believe it. Kaleidescape is not a commodity and I would not expect Apple to ever be comparable in that context.

I am also an Apple fan but I would never expect Kaleidescape to have to face the customer in the same way that Apple does. Its two different worlds.

So my comment about Kaleidescape 'sharing' more information with its established customer base still stands. I believe Kaleidescape would benefit from the same kind of alignment with their customers that the Bentley, Breitling or Clive Christian companies exhibit each and every day. Demonstrate respect for existing customers and prospective customers will be a much easier sell.

As far as customers being entitled to know future plans goes, if someone is going to make the investment that this technology requires then I believe they have earned the right to know considerably more than is the presently the case.

Although I have been waiting with considerable excitement for the store to arrive I would not want them to rush any product introduction before its ready. At least before I could find it on my Apple maps application!!!!

Finally I sense that the company must be sharing a great deal more information with its dealers than its customers as evidenced by the wonderful passion and enthusiasm of many folks in this forum. My position is that Kaleidescape needs to sharpen its skills with its existing customer base if thats the case.

Peter

 

[Kevin D]

Finally I sense that the company must be sharing a great deal more information with its dealers than its customers as evidenced by the wonderful passion and enthusiasm of many folks in this forum.

Peter

As a dealer, I can tell you that's not true. They're sharing the info with a select few beta testers (probably with a signed NDA), not the dealers. As a dealer, I typically know things a few days before hand because of this forum.

Now as a dealer, I probably could have pressed the issue and had our demo system join the beta test, but then I couldn't tell you about it.

Out of all our Kscape customers, I'm pretty sure 99.9% (possibly 100%) are not on this forum. Kaleidescape was a solution to a problem they had and they had enough money to solve their problem. They don't expect or anticipate their system to handle downloads or have a store. So when it comes out, it's a pleasant surprise.

1% of a small number is an extremely small number. Your'e upset that they haven't told 368 people their plans? (That's the number of members that have visited in the last year)


Kevin D.

 

[cinelife]

.............1% of a small number is an extremely small number. Your'e upset that they haven't told 368 people their plans? (That's the number of members that have visited in the last year)
Kevin D.

Not disagreeing with your post, and the number of "registered" owner's that also regulary participate in the forum is close to the number you cited, but there are many other owner's that for a variety of reasons visit the forum as a "guest" and do so on a regular basis. I only know this because a dozen or so of my client's are in that category and they share comments with me by email on a regular basis. Those are just my numbers, I assume other dealer's have client's that also visit as a guest.

That said, it doesn't change the point you make, as these are still small numbers.


Jim

 

[JerryL]

Peter, good points about Bentley/ Apple. No analogy is perfect. I have had interaction with people at all the major auto manufactures and when you ask them about an upcoming model they will never tell you specifics. They won't say for example say it has a V12 with 600HP. They will say "youll love it" or "its got more power and handles better". Ferrari won't tell you. Bentley won't tell you. Rolls won't tell you. McLaren won't tell you either.

What can Kaleidescape say at this point? "Our future products will be even better"? Of course they will say that.

Its just my opinion that their communication is fine.

Also these forums can be a dangerous thing for a manufacturer- I can understand why they would want to keep a distance.

If anyone is watching though, it would be very welcome by me if we got onboard decoding of high res audio.

 

[nineball]

Peter, good points about Bentley/ Apple. No analogy is perfect. I have had interaction with people at all the major auto manufactures and when you ask them about an upcoming model they will never tell you specifics. They won't say for example say it has a V12 with 600HP. They will say "youll love it" or "its got more power and handles better". Ferrari won't tell you. Bentley won't tell you. Rolls won't tell you. McLaren won't tell you either.

What can Kaleidescape say at this point? "Our future products will be even better"? Of course they will say that.

Its just my opinion that their communication is fine.

Also these forums can be a dangerous thing for a manufacturer- I can understand why they would want to keep a distance.

If anyone is watching though, it would be very welcome by me if we got onboard decoding of high res audio.

Jerry, the CEO of Bentley North America took 7 of us out to dinner to discuss our experience with existing products and share information on long term strategies. He was unbelievably respectful of his customer feedback and was extremely candid. As a member of that group I can tell you that his candour was respected and we would never think of violating any of the proprietary information shared at the dinner. I have immense respect for a company that in turn respects its customer base and have a strong commitment for the positive culture that generates.

The Bentley Supersports ISR is 631 HP V12. There are 100 of them in the world..... mine is #87

The dealer was also present and the meal was incredible!!!

My point Jerry is that I think of Kaleidescape in the same way....They are NOT a commodity and they could and should reach out to their customers in the same way.

Peter

 

[videofile]

I must say though I cringe a little when I see comparisons between CI kit and luxury goods such as Bentley, Rolex, etc. I don't think they really hold water; the purchase of such true luxury goods is more often than not driven by a desire of the customer to have some of the brand cachet to rub off on them by purchasing; in many cases I would imagine (admittedly probably not that of a large proportion of the members of the forum) the end user probably had little awareness of Kal as a brand before thinking about putting in automation / AV distribution / home cinema. I know (sad though it is) of systems languishing with no content on them as they were "job lot" installed, perhaps as a package at the development stage.

Because those luxury goods firms are effectively trading that cachet for money, the way they have to interact with their customers is significantly different, so I do get why Kal are tight-lipped.

 

[iansilv]

Mmm... Bentley Continental Supersports ISR...

 

[nineball]

I must say though I cringe a little when I see comparisons between CI kit and luxury goods such as Bentley, Rolex, etc. I don't think they really hold water; the purchase of such true luxury goods is more often than not driven by a desire of the customer to have some of the brand cachet to rub off on them by purchasing; in many cases I would imagine (admittedly probably not that of a large proportion of the members of the forum) the end user probably had little awareness of Kal as a brand before thinking about putting in automation / AV distribution / home cinema. I know (sad though it is) of systems languishing with no content on them as they were "job lot" installed, perhaps as a package at the development stage.

Because those luxury goods firms are effectively trading that cachet for money, the way they have to interact with their customers is significantly different, so I do get why Kal are tight-lipped.

I respectfully (sincerely) have to disagree. There is cachet with the Bentley without a doubt but its not a dirty word and its reputation is honestly earned. I feel good driving it because it is truly an engineering marvel.

But from where I sit Kaleidescape gives me the same level of satisfaction when sitting in my home theater, a life long passion that I truly appreciate. It is elegant and to the uninitiated always a magical moment when shared for the first time. It just works and works well all the time. The presentation always produces a wow factor for others who are true home theater nuts like me.

I generally don't discuss costs when it comes to the Kaleidescape system as it is a distraction to the simple and deep enjoyment of the technology but I do know that the issues circling the Bentley and the home theater are the same. What I don't understand is just how consistently the folks on this forum are in defending Kaleidescape's poor performance in relating to its owners. The analogy between luxury 'best in class' goods and Kaleidescape is very apt in my opinion. It is by definition and cost, a member of that club and I believe should act accordingly.

I have been holding off purchases of movies in anticipation but I'm in the dark with where all this is really headed. The Canadian shiny disk landscape is changing at light speed, shrinking by the hour. My wife recently wanted to see the movie 'The Magic of Belle Isle' but it was not available in any of the remaining big box stores. I wanted to watch the movie in the theater but we ended up watching it through apple TV on one of her screens. 60 inches verses 14 feet, I believe there is a UN convention against watching a movie on that small a screen.

What I would want Kaleidescape to share with me is whether or not I should secure a secondary source for movie purchases or whether I should expect a decent catalogue through the store.

We are all adults here and I absolutely understand the challenges the company has with respect to securing the rights to this material for distribution so I'm not going to malign them simply because they couldn't pull it off. If they can it will be a miraculous feat but I don't think i need to sit quietly in the dark as most here have suggested, afraid to even ask Kaleidescape to better communicate in case it might offend them.

I wouldn't be carrying on this theme in this forum if it wasn't centred on the owners of this technology. A forum that Kaleidescape itself does not sponsor or offer to its established customers.

I am NOT trying to offend anyone in this environment and if my poorly crafted language has, I sincerely apologize. To the CI's in here.......no matter how much or how little money is at stake the respect for customer ought to be paramount and to tell someone that they should refrain from asking for better communication because the 'company' knows better is disrespectful and old school paternalistic. I'm gonna climb down from my soapbox and scoot back into retirement where i belong!!!


Peter

 

[JerryL]

Peter, thats wonderful. However, you have to ask yourself if thats really fair to make that comparison. You are clearly part of a select group of customers with Bentley. I don't believe all of Bentleys customers get such treatment! I would not expect this of Kaleidescape. Also Bentley did not disclose their plans to a public open forum. And if you were to disclose those plans I suspect you wouldn't be asked for a return dinner engagement. Simply put: I believe you have an unrealistic expectation of communication out of Kaleidescape.

But be that as it may, we disagree. We are each entitled to our opinions. I am in no way offended that they wish to play it close to the vest.

One point of information- when the (then) new M class products came out and we discovered they did not internally decode the high res audio that some of us wanted, there was a little bit of an uproar. I certainly made my feelings known. Kaleidescape did communicate with us as to some reasons why they could not offer that feature. It was (and still is) disappointing they don't offer it, but they did communicate with us.

As to analogies, comparisons to other brands; they will always be flawed. I think a little latitude is acceptable here. Yes Kaleidescape and Bentley are different, but I think both are luxury goods- hardly necessities- no matter how obsessive we here are!

PS- congrats on the ISR, its a sweet ride.

 

[nineball]

Peter, thats wonderful. However, you have to ask yourself if thats really fair to make that comparison. You are clearly part of a select group of customers with Bentley. I don't believe all of Bentleys customers get such treatment! I would not expect this of Kaleidescape. Also Bentley did not disclose their plans to a public open forum. And if you were to disclose those plans I suspect you wouldn't be asked for a return dinner engagement. Simply put: I believe you have an unrealistic expectation of communication out of Kaleidescape.

But be that as it may, we disagree. We are each entitled to our opinions. I am in no way offended that they wish to play it close to the vest.

One point of information- when the (then) new M class products came out and we discovered they did not internally decode the high res audio that some of us wanted, there was a little bit of an uproar. I certainly made my feelings known. Kaleidescape did communicate with us as to some reasons why they could not offer that feature. It was (and still is) disappointing they don't offer it, but they did communicate with us.

As to analogies, comparisons to other brands; they will always be flawed. I think a little latitude is acceptable here. Yes Kaleidescape and Bentley are different, but I think both are luxury goods- hardly necessities- no matter how obsessive we here are!

PS- congrats on the ISR, its a sweet ride.

That's what this place ought to represent Jerry.....diversity of opinion or ideas without being derogatory.

Well said.

Peter

ps. after you've been in the Bentley you will never see it as anything but a necessity for a balanced life!!!!!

 

[josh]

This has turned into quite an interesting thread!

I have to say I started reading this latest thread about whether K should be more open or not and felt similar to Jerry - Kaleidescape owes us nothing and we shouldn't expect to know future plans.

But Peter (Nineball) has made some points that have really made me think. And it made me remember another good example to ponder.

I'm a Tesla owner as well as an early reservation holder for the Model S. Now I know that Tesla, even with their new model, are still an expensive, premium, limited-availability product, but I wouldn't put them in the super-elite level of a Bentley.

Yet Tesla has been pretty extraordinary about giving lots of info on their future direction, changes they're making, changes they're CONSIDERING, and new features to expect. They have a blog about it, they post on the user forums, they email customers and prospective customers. Owners and owners-to-be get a ton of info about features that will come, ideas they're working on etc.

I think Tesla and Kaleidescape are pretty comparable companies... Tesla is a better match than Bentley. Both Tesla and Kaleidescape are appealing to relatively wealthy early adopters, both need to ally fears of technology problems, possible issues or obsolescence if the right decisions aren't made, and both companies are small enough that owners need to worry if the company will still be around to support the product.

But Tesla is worlds different in how it communicates. See this corporate blog as an example, and look through the archives. Owners can get a glimpse into future products, new features, modifications, how things are going with financing at the company, reassurances, even worries or concerns from the CEO and team. They engage the users, reassure, communicate well. They invite owners and reservation holders into the company to see prototypes, see the manufacturing process, meet the execs and engineers, ask questions. They hold events to show their latest features and prototypes even showing you the other rejected prototypes, features, etc. and why they chose what they did, all the time asking for feedback.

So I think I've come around 180 degrees towards Peter's view. The company could become less secretive, more open and engaging, and would likely gain more loyalty, passion, and evangelism for its products... similar to what Tesla enjoys.

--josh

 

[videofile]

Very interesting.

I do think Tesla are a better comparison, and their blog is a bit of a revelation; the cynic in me says some of the posts only exist to debunk stuff which is only public due to their corporate structure; but I think there is a genuine desire to share & engage a bit more in there. I guess they have the benefit of not being dragged through the courts by some of the same people they want to buy stuff from(!) - which for K probably makes it hard to discuss much publicly as I imagine a lot of posturing and positioning happening behind the scenes.

I share your concerns Peter about ability to deliver significant catalog at BD quality, where no-one else has yet... I'm still sore from listening to the likes of HDGiants / XStreamHD - remember all their promises? It will be great if the industry has woken up to giving us what we want finally. The secrecy doesn't help matters in this respect, in a field of mostly vapor from "competitors" who have been and gone...

At the moment it feels a bit like being outside the (locked) doors of the chocolate factory...!