NEWS: New Product: Cinema One

[Mr. Integration]

I see where you are coming from and I think that is why there is still a great used market for these products. I look forward to the future because of products like this. This is far better than the original Cinema One. I would like to have seen a Raid or at least an optional upraded unit. I still think the gap is too large for many to jump, but I am confident this is not the last trick up Kscapes sleeve.

They have invested a lot in all of their endeavors and I think the future looks brighter today than yesterday

 

[justingn]

I see where you are coming from and I think that is why there is still a great used market for these products. I look forward to the future because of products like this. This is far better than the original Cinema One. I would like to have seen a Raid or at least an optional upraded unit. I still think the gap is too large for many to jump, but I am confident this is not the last trick up Kscapes sleeve.

They have invested a lot in all of their endeavors and I think the future looks brighter today than yesterday

I agree. This is a bigger step forward than most realize, and I'm very eager for their future products. I was just disappointed by the new CinemaOne due to the lack of RAID or redundancy(primarily). If they fixed that, I'd be more than happy to make it my new media hub over my AppleTV.

 

[JDS]

From the Kaleidescape Press Release-

"Cinema One is the first component in Kaleidescape?s new Cinema line"

Perhaps future components will provide the desired features that are not present with the Cinema One as one box solution.

I read on another site that the new Cinema One has a low-power standby mode and the hard drive spins down the when not in use. I hope this feature does not affect the longevity of the drives.

Things are moving fast in the AV world. I am really looking forward to see what arrives in the next two years.

 

[mantonuc]

This is an interesting product. On the one hand, it is an entryway into the Kaleidescape world for a much more reasonable startup cost. That part is great. From that point of view, it is not unlike the original C1, which was basically an low price point gateway into "K", albeit a DVD only system. That original C1 is what got me started. But at least with the original system, it was integratable into a larger system. This new product is not and that is a mistake from my point of view. There is no technical basis for that short coming and makes the product not easily upgradable.

Also, I think one of the outstanding features of all existing K-systems (including the original C1) was that they were Raid based. That goes a long way towards long term system reliability. In the past, losing a hard drive was no problem - just pop in a new one and away you go. Having only a single disk in the new C1 system, that entire aspect goes away and will result in product that will not be as robust. So, it will not be the same class of product that "K" has been associated with in the past.

Finally, I am not sure who this product will really be intended for. Someone who purchases this unit will more than likely have an existing collection of DVD's and BD's. It is not technically a Blue Ray server solution, as without an accompanying Disk Vault, it is little more than a BlueRay player. Since a lot of existing Blue Rays are not currently available in the "store", that forces one into a Vault. So, the price point of one truly entering into the "K" world (with a BD collection) will be $4K (C1) + $5.5K (DV700).

To me, a much better product would have been one that is significantly upscale form here, but still more reasonable than a full blown K system... I would think something along the lines of say an "M1" would be cool. It would in essence be a stand alone unit that incorporated a DV700 disk vault, four 4-TB drives, and an M-class player. In essence, everything one would need to have a true out-of-the-box BlueRay solution. It would contain a Raid drive and could be integrated into an existing system... Grow your collection to more than 320 BD disk, and simply buy a second unit... It has a clear migration path.


Matt

 

[sipester]

To me, a much better product would have been one that is significantly upscale form here, but still more reasonable than a full blown K system... I would think something along the lines of say an "M1" would be cool. It would in essence be a stand alone unit that incorporated a DV700 disk vault, four 4-TB drives, and an M-class player. In essence, everything one would need to have a true out-of-the-box BlueRay solution. It would contain a Raid drive and could be integrated into an existing system... Grow your collection to more than 320 BD disk, and simply buy a second unit... It has a clear migration path.


Matt

What you have described is essentially a combined M700 and a 1U server, so not sure how combining those two would add a lot of value (especially if it undercut the price of buying those two items separately).

Since they included Blu-Ray capability, it seems that to complete the product they should re-introduce the 100-Disc Blu-Ray changer that they first had before the M700 came out.

The DV700 isn't a good fit in that A) it's more expensive than Cinema One and B) even if you get two Cinema One's, there isn't enough storage to hold a full DV700.

Also, to concur with those above, to only have one HD in a non-raid configuration seems to go too far to make it less expensive, having an option to add other drives for more storage/raid would still allow a low entry price (i.e., under 4K if that was the answer from their market research) but allow a little larger collection with redundancy. Anyone looking to spend 4K - 8K on this is likely going to have more than 4TB of movies in Blu-Ray's and DVD's.

Finally, I really don't see why they blocked this from not working with the Premier line. What would be the harm in letting M series players watch movies from the Cinema One HD or adding more storage via the 1U or 3U server?

 

[JerryL]

I hope this works out for Kaleidescape.

 

[bedbuged]

This is an interesting product. On the one hand, it is an entryway into the Kaleidescape world for a much more reasonable startup cost. That part is great. From that point of view, it is not unlike the original C1, which was basically an low price point gateway into "K", albeit a DVD only system. That original C1 is what got me started. But at least with the original system, it was integratable into a larger system. This new product is not and that is a mistake from my point of view. There is no technical basis for that short coming and makes the product not easily upgradable.

I couldn't agree more. While I can see from a marketing perspective, keeping them as seperate product lines (as the intended target market is different) makes me (as a current owner) feel that maybe my Flagship/Premiere equipment has not been 'devalued' by K introducing this new system. But at the same time, it also is going to prevent me from purchasing any current and future Cinema line products because I cannot integrate them into my existing K setup.

I wonder what the long term impact this new strategy will have on dealers, now that all this new hardware is available for sale in the K-store? Despite the convenience, I would still call my dealer if i needed larger drives (unless he told me not to)... I'm sure the profit margin on a drive is small, but it all adds up. Everyone's gotta eat, right?

 

[mantonuc]

Sipester,


My thought was to combine "some" of the features from each of the 1U, M700, and DV700 units. However, it would be in a single chassis, which would still have the appeal of being a PNP system. Open the box, connect it up, and ready to go. It would only require a single BR disk drive and a single Video output circuit (whereas the M700 and DV700 each have them). These could keep cost down somewhat. Clearly, it would be more expensive than then C1, but would be a lot more of a stand alone Blue Ray solution... Essentially, it would be a souped up C1...



Matt

 

[bedbuged]

I wonder why they did not introduce this new product with a fresh new name, as oppossed to naming it after a formerly discontinued product, that wasn't a tremendous success the first time around.

 

[josh]

Kaleidescape has always prioritized easy, "bullet-proof" operation, and, like many of you, I am also puzzled by the lack of any sort of RAID feature for content security. It seems like it goes against the brand... like a cheaper Volvo that has no airbags or safety features. Just doesn't make sense to go against what the brand has long stood for.

So let me pose this question... Given the investment Kaleidescape has been making in a big data center to host and serve movie downloads, is it POSSIBLE, that they'll surprise us and say that C1 does have redundancy... but it's in the cloud. The server trickles replication of content up to the data center; your content is safe.

While I know ISP data caps and low upload speeds make this challenging, it could be doable. The cloud backup may be a few days out of date if you've recently imported content, but that wouldn't be a disaster. And of course anything you bought from the Kaleidescape store wouldn't ever need to be uploaded as the content already exists and is re-downloadable any time. It's also possible that content you bought and imported that happens to ALSO exist in the store may not have to be "uploaded"; the system just records that Josh owns Avatar Blu-ray edition, and should I lose my hard drive, the store re-supplies me with the content I already owned to restore my system. Played out to its ultimate conclusion where Kaleidescape does have all major studios on board, with permission for this content replacement, etc., then the ONLY content that would truly need to be backed up to cloud storage would be home movies and very obscure long-tail content.

So this whole thing could actually be a bold move in proving that "access" trumps true "ownership" and given that there's little reason for even ONE stored copy of digital content on big spinning disks in the home, it's really crazy to have multiple redundant (RAID) copies on multiple expensive hard drives.

Just a thought on how they could resolve this seemingly major brand/feature disparity we're sensing.

--josh

p.s. Yes, I sometimes am under NDA about Kaleidescape plans (not for a long time, though, as many of you know). This is again not one of those time... I know nothing of future Kaleidescape plans, this is just pure conjecture on my part. And probably way off base!

 

[justingn]

So let me pose this question... Given the investment Kaleidescape has been making in a big data center to host and serve movie downloads, is it POSSIBLE, that they'll surprise us and say that C1 does have redundancy... but it's in the cloud. The server trickles replication of content up to the data center; your content is safe.

While I know ISP data caps and low upload speeds make this challenging, it could be doable. The cloud backup may be a few days out of date if you've recently imported content, but that wouldn't be a disaster. And of course anything you bought from the Kaleidescape store wouldn't ever need to be uploaded as the content already exists and is re-downloadable any time. It's also possible that content you bought and imported that happens to ALSO exist in the store may not have to be "uploaded"; the system just records that Josh owns Avatar Blu-ray edition, and should I lose my hard drive, the store re-supplies me with the content I already owned to restore my system. Played out to its ultimate conclusion where Kaleidescape does have all major studios on board, with permission for this content replacement, etc., then the ONLY content that would truly need to be backed up to cloud storage would be home movies and very obscure long-tail content.

So this whole thing could actually be a bold move in proving that "access" trumps true "ownership" and given that there's little reason for even ONE stored copy of digital content on big spinning disks in the home, it's really crazy to have multiple redundant (RAID) copies on multiple expensive hard drives.

As someone who deals with both the consumer side and hosting side of large cloud storage...I doubt it. My cloud services provider throttles my uploads after a terabyte of data, to discourage me against backing up my entire digital catalog to their servers due to the expense. On the hosting side, we're constantly adding new Disk Trays as-is (an investment that'd make a K-Scape Premiere owner spit out their drink in shock at the price), and we're a small organization. Combined with all the expenses of hosting such a cloud setup (multiple redundant Data Centers, power and internet providers, staff, electricity, hardware, etc) for even the limited number of K-Scape C1 owners, it's a losing proposition. Besides, the major studios already loathe K-Scape for their disc storage solutions; why would they suddenly be on board with something like cloud storage? It doesn't make any sort of sense...

...right now, that is. In a few years, with downloadable media slowly trumping physical discs, the Major Studios might start banging down their door for K-Scape to enter more markets and present a better value for physical media (perhaps even some automated iTunes encodes? You never know...).

I'd rather see K-Scape focus on delivering a compelling, turn-key solution at my demographic, and that's as easy as adding a serviceable RAID 1 array in the Cinema One they announced. For people like me (DIY Media Buffs with apartments/small homes and medium budgets), we've been dreaming of a K experience for years, and this is the closest they've come yet. If they give us redundancy (again, an extra $500 at most if they're using top-tier Server SATA drives, easily doable at the current $4000 price point), it'll be the perfect gateway product, and an instant buy from me, credit card be darned.

 

[Mr. Integration]

Kaleidescape has always prioritized easy, "bullet-proof" operation, and, like many of you, I am also puzzled by the lack of any sort of RAID feature for content security. It seems like it goes against the brand... like a cheaper Volvo that has no airbags or safety features. Just doesn't make sense to go against what the brand has long stood for.

So let me pose this question... Given the investment Kaleidescape has been making in a big data center to host and serve movie downloads, is it POSSIBLE, that they'll surprise us and say that C1 does have redundancy... but it's in the cloud. The server trickles replication of content up to the data center; your content is safe.

While I know ISP data caps and low upload speeds make this challenging, it could be doable. The cloud backup may be a few days out of date if you've recently imported content, but that wouldn't be a disaster. And of course anything you bought from the Kaleidescape store wouldn't ever need to be uploaded as the content already exists and is re-downloadable any time. It's also possible that content you bought and imported that happens to ALSO exist in the store may not have to be "uploaded"; the system just records that Josh owns Avatar Blu-ray edition, and should I lose my hard drive, the store re-supplies me with the content I already owned to restore my system. Played out to its ultimate conclusion where Kaleidescape does have all major studios on board, with permission for this content replacement, etc., then the ONLY content that would truly need to be backed up to cloud storage would be home movies and very obscure long-tail content.

So this whole thing could actually be a bold move in proving that "access" trumps true "ownership" and given that there's little reason for even ONE stored copy of digital content on big spinning disks in the home, it's really crazy to have multiple redundant (RAID) copies on multiple expensive hard drives.

Just a thought on how they could resolve this seemingly major brand/feature disparity we're sensing.

--josh

p.s. Yes, I sometimes am under NDA about Kaleidescape plans (not for a long time, though, as many of you know). This is again not one of those time... I know nothing of future Kaleidescape plans, this is just pure conjecture on my part. And probably way off base!

I agree with Josh here and I will take it one step further. This product is squarely aimed at people who are using download services that are all mediocre at best. If you take the cost of a vault you can buy a ton of Blu Ray downloads and a second unit. Most people don't have more than 200 movies they want to own. They want to "rent" and watch. I believe many people will pay for a movie download it, watch it and then clear it to make room for the next batch. I purchased 42 because I wanted to see it in Blu Ray quality. I may watch it once or twice more but then it will be deleted to make space. If I ever desire to see it again I can always redownload it. Bandwidth is cheap and getting faster all the time.

I am hopeful for the future of this product and I am under NDA

 

[justingn]

I agree with Josh here and I will take it one step further. This product is squarely aimed at people who are using download services that are all mediocre at best.

I beg to differ here. At $1000, it'd be competing with those users. At $4000, it's squarely aimed at the middle-class media aficionado with a healthy amount of disks that would warrant the purchase price. The price point of the new C1 is higher than that of the display it'll likely be used on in a majority of cases, and without 4K/3D support, it certainly won't be as appealing a proposition to those of us upgrading our displays in the upcoming years (kind of surprised they don't let the internal scaler handle such duties). Yeah, 4K and 3D are niche, but therein lies the allure of the K experience: I'm confident I can load my niche films/series into the system and still get metadata, whereas on my AppleTV setup I'm tracking it down by hand, and it's often incomplete.

If you take the cost of a vault you can buy a ton of Blu Ray downloads and a second unit. Most people don't have more than 200 movies they want to own. They want to "rent" and watch. I believe many people will pay for a movie, download it, watch it and then clear it to make room for the next batch. I purchased 42 because I wanted to see it in Blu Ray quality. I may watch it once or twice more but then it will be deleted to make space. If I ever desire to see it again I can always redownload it. Bandwidth is cheap and getting faster all the time.

I won't argue there, though I will say that the current prices on K-store movies is a bit high, considering the physical BDs themselves are cheaper off the likes of Amazon or Best Buy (Case in point, The Matrix on the K-Store, and [ame="http://www.amazon.com/The-Matrix-Blu-ray-Keanu-Reeves/dp/B00319ECGK/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1374677824&sr=8-2&keywords=the+matrix+blu+ray"]The Matrix off Amazon[/ame]), and don't require downloading (which, even over my 50Mbps FiOS connection, a 25GB BD ISO would take over an hour). Sure, the K-Store offers BD quality over an internet connection, but if I'm in an impulsive enough mood to buy something from them, I'll also want to stream it right away rather than wait for it to download. Just like the Olive music systems are geared towards CD owners and FLAC downloaders with its premium price point, so is the C1 geared towards those of us with large disc collections as is, but without the money to outfit our home with a Premiere System (or the home to outfit at all, as is the case with renters like myself).

I don't mind swapping BDs in the short term if the C1 offered redundant storage of my vast DVD collection, so the vault issue is moot for the forseeable future (besides, if the C1 takes off and does reasonably well, it's safe to assume a cheaper, smaller, networked vault will be forthcoming at a $1000 or $2000 price point late next year). I love the idea of the Cinema line being offered to the DIY set (even if a few Integrators don't - sorry!), and the C1 offering is a great start in theory, it's just the hardware execution I'm ultimately concerned about, downloadable films or not.

 

[Transepoch]

An interesting product that reminds me of Crestron's Prodigy line... kinda gets your foot in the door, ostensibly targeted at DIY, but doesn't play well with its established kin that you want to expand/transition into later.

though I will say that the current prices on K-store movies is a bit high, considering the physical BDs themselves are cheaper off the likes of Amazon or Best Buy

Except downloads don't require choosing between manually swapping to watch or buying storage at MSRP of $17-22 per disc. I prefer closing my eyes to that number too, but it's still there. One of these days I can see myself using it for the more marginal titles I'd be interested in getting.

 

[Mr. Integration]

my suspicion is that these two lines will eventually play nice with each other. I emphatically stated they needed to when I saw this a few months ago. I am confident they took it under advisement. More users is good for all of us. Based on the traffic I have seen this will be a big seller.

 

[tweaks]

Good discussion points here all around.

From a much simpler perspective, this price point allows me to buy this as a gift for my parents. They have long been admirers of my K system but the price point has been a stumbling block. Now, at least at this price point, buying this as a gift becomes a real option.

I'm not going to analyze what the actual market for this kind of purchase might be. I'm just throwing this out there to show there is another dynamic for some with this product.

 

[brodricj]

Will it connect to any DV700 already in the Kaleidescape Premiere environment, or only its own dedicated DV700?

 

[cinelife]

It does not connect to any existing 1U or 3U system. It is an independent component (but can be linked to one additional C1), and would need it's own dedicated DV700.



Jim

 

[justingn]

It does not connect to any existing 1U or 3U system. It is an independent component (but can be linked to one additional C1), and would need it's own dedicated DV700.



Jim

Wait, you're capped at 2 C1s per network? That's...disappointing. I mean, yeah, when you've added three or more to a single home you've entered Premiere territory, but still, that's a disappointment to someone who'd like to invest today, and expand the system as I expand my home, you know? Then again, the K-Scape used market is still pretty hot in terms of retaining their value...

I guess that's another "wait and see" point for the Cinema series. Less of an issue if they give us some sort of playback device sans hard disk, but that seems highly unlikely.

 

[cinelife]

Someone wanting to expand past two C1's is better served moving to a 1U, IMO.


Jim