NEWS: New Product: Cinema One

[djb_rh]

Donnie (and dans), you can now order one for your vacation home(s).

Well alrighty then, I stand corrected. Happily!

Well, almost...I mean I'm happy about the answer, but not quite happy enough to buy one. But a LOT closer. I need another big studio or two to sign on and to upgrade a few more of my existing movies...


--Donnie

 

[cinelife]

............I need another big studio or two to sign on and to upgrade a few more of my existing movies...--Donnie

You are certainly not alone, I hear this a lot...........

On this subject I wonder if this isn't a kind of "chicken - egg" thing. Some studio's may be evaluating store sales volume, while owner's are sitting on the sideline waiting for more studio participation. I do know that K is diligently working to bring more studio's into the store as soon as possible.



Jim

 

[djb_rh]

You are certainly not alone, I hear this a lot...........

On this subject I wonder if this isn't a kind of "chicken - egg" thing. Some studio's may be evaluating store sales volume, while owner's are sitting on the sideline waiting for more studio participation. I do know that K is diligently working to bring more studio's into the store as soon as possible.

Definitely.

On top of that, we have Directv at home and the vacation house. They allow for vacation house receivers that don't require an additional account, too. And we have the full monte of movie channels, which these days includes on-demand channels for everything.

When I told my wife last night what the C1 could do for us she was pretty "meh" on it. Biggest reason was lack of content available on it now. Second biggest was amount of OD content we already have.


--Donnie

 

[cinelife]

It's probably only surprising to us videophile die-hards that have moved almost exclusively to Blu-ray (at least for all new purchases), but there are many, many folks that only have DVD collections and are perfectly happy with that quality. Given the new C1's storage limitations, it's clear it's aimed primarily at that market.



Jim

 

[cinelife]

I've had several off-forum discussions with both current K Owner's and wannabe K owners. It's interesting to listen to the arguments both for and against the new C1. Current K Owner's are unhappy with the lack of RAID (understandable given that's a significant selling point for the "Premiere" line) and the lack of compatibility with their current 1U and 3U systems, and the wannabe's are still looking for a less expensive solution (but they do have interest in the C1, especially amongst DVD owners).

I do not know the thinking behind the system compatibility issue. The obvious is the desire to keep the lines separate, but the underlying reason remains undisclosed. Perhaps it's to not offend current system owner's that spent large amounts of money to acquire what they own, but that's doubtful given the C1 spec's versus premiere line. I think we can see the value differences in the two lines. Perhaps it's just a "technical" thing, required for that platform and upcoming uses, or perhaps it's a simple cost to build factor. Whatever the reason, it has some current owner's passing on this unit (but that's probably okay considering it isn't aimed at them). The RAID issue is easier to speculate about, probably caused by the desire to keep the footprint small, and cost lower. In any case, most on this forum would be surprised at the how well the C1 is being received in the targeted market. It might not be for everyone, but it is selling. There will always be the "I want it all, and I want it for $10" people, but K is still in business for a reason, and it isn't because they price to reach those folks.


Jim

 

[justingn]

I've had several off-forum discussions with both current K Owner's and wannabe K owners. It's interesting to listen to the arguments both for and against the new C1. Current K Owner's are unhappy with the lack of RAID (understandable given that's a significant selling point for the "Premiere" line) and the lack of compatibility with their current 1U and 3U systems, and the wannabe's are still looking for a less expensive solution (but they do have interest in the C1, especially amongst DVD owners).

I do not know the thinking behind the system compatibility issue. The obvious is the desire to keep the lines separate, but the underlying reason remains undisclosed. Perhaps it's to not offend current system owner's that spent large amounts of money to acquire what they own, but that's doubtful given the C1 spec's versus premiere line. I think we can see the value differences in the two lines. Perhaps it's just a "technical" thing, required for that platform and upcoming uses, or perhaps it's a simple cost to build factor. Whatever the reason, it has some current owner's passing on this unit (but that's probably okay considering it isn't aimed at them). The RAID issue is easier to speculate about, probably caused by the desire to keep the footprint small, and cost lower. In any case, most on this forum would be surprised at the how well the C1 is being received in the targeted market. It might not be for everyone, but it is selling. There will always be the "I want it all, and I want it for $10" people, but K is still in business for a reason, and it isn't because they price to reach those folks.


Jim

I fall into both categories: a wannabe K owner, but one who understands why the lack of RAID is such a deal breaker on this unit. I don't doubt its selling potential (it is the first piece of K gear both sold at retail and at a mass market pricepoint, at least in recent memory), but I'll agree that the deliberate lack of integration with existing systems is puzzling, to say the least. The old KCINEMA-1 had a migratory path to M-Class from what I've read, which at least gave you a way to buy in at the DVD level, then upgrade as your collection expanded, but the new C1 seems to stand solely on its own. I know it's the first Cinema product in the line, and more are expected, but segmenting the two lines so definitively seems like a misstep to me (If anything, some sort of trade-up and data migration program for C1 owners when the hard disk reaches end of life sounds like a smart way of moving people into the M-Class) at this point in time. Then again, I'm not even invested into K yet, so I'm definitely not seeing anything close to the whole picture that the rest of you all are.

Maaaan, I so want one of these. It's taking all of my self control not to spend money on this thing, both because I know the lack of RAID will bite me in the rear sooner than later, and because I don't actually have the money anyway!

 

[iansilv]

I see this as an awesome potential "step-IN" to the Kaleidescape ecosystem if it was in fact compatible with the existing servers K already sells. Right here is a device that will allow a new customer to taste the K system for a lower price, storing DVDs and downloading Bluray movies online. Then, they realize that the interface really is as special as their friends say it is, so they decide to buy more movies. They add a carousel. Then they need more storage... and a client for another room... so they buy another C1? Or at this point do they pick up a server? They can't pick up a server- they can only buy another C1.

I do not understand the incompatibility with the existing servers. I think K is missing a huge opportunity to convert those customers who do have the money but do not see the value. For a lot of people the value cannot be understood until the system is actually used in the home for a period of time.

The incompatibility with existing server systems is an unnecessary hurdle towards ownership of a full K system and more sales for installers. Having an installer say "Yeah- no problem- we can just add a server seamlessly and you can store more disks" is a heck of a lot more motivating to a customer then "... yeah.... well we can get you a second C1 to store some more disks... but if you want to store your entire collection we need to get you a server... in the premiere line... and then a new player... and- what's that? Oh yeah those new players are the exact same quality as the C1s.... I don't know why they don't work together. I can probably find a buyer for your C1 through my customer network... about 35%-50% of the original retail price..... ok let me know what you want to do... I'll call back in a few days..."

If K wants to truly differentiate the premier line, then release players that do 3d and bitstream audio for compatibility with Meridian systems. Leave the C1 as the lower end player-server combo but do not stop customers from keeping it as part of their system as they upgrade when their needs increase.

 

[justingn]

...If K wants to truly differentiate the premier line, then release players that do 3d and bitstream audio for compatibility with Meridian systems. Leave the C1 as the lower end player-server combo but do not stop customers from keeping it as part of their system as they upgrade when their needs increase.

I agree, but I'm going to sidetrack a little: has Kaleidescape ever given a definitive reason for not outputting 3D video? What about new "Mastered in 4K" Blu-Rays that include xvYCC metadata tables? Their website currently lists bitstream audio on the M300/M500 series players, so isn't that resolved? As for system integration, I'd much rather see an API available over the ethernet port for use in systems like Crestron or C4, than proprietary manufacturer integration.

But that's me. IANAI: I am not an Integrator.

 

[iansilv]

I agree, but I'm going to sidetrack a little: has Kaleidescape ever given a definitive reason for not outputting 3D video? What about new "Mastered in 4K" Blu-Rays that include xvYCC metadata tables? Their website currently lists bitstream audio on the M300/M500 series players, so isn't that resolved? As for system integration, I'd much rather see an API available over the ethernet port for use in systems like Crestron or C4, than proprietary manufacturer integration.

But that's me. IANAI: I am not an Integrator.

I would guess that implementation of 3d, bitstreaming audio, xyz color- all that stuff, including 4K is coming, but it is likely a quality / research / roi issue as to when.

I just really hope that they will reconsider the C1 compatibility with an add-on server idea, and update the players at the same price points as I think that upgrade path is potentially phenomenal for new customers who get sold on a C1 at Magnolia. It's the start of an ecosystem!

 

[djb_rh]

As for system integration, I'd much rather see an API available over the ethernet port for use in systems like Crestron or C4, than proprietary manufacturer integration.

We have that on the Premier line and I just assumed that was available on the new C1. Is it not?


--Donnie

 

[justingn]

We have that on the Premier line and I just assumed that was available on the new C1. Is it not?


--Donnie

No idea. To be honest, another poster mentioned Meridian Integration, so I assumed that K-Scape didn't have anything specific beyond the usual trigger interface and the iPad app. Glad I'm wrong, because that's one more thing I'd love to root around in someday.

 

[sipester]

No idea. To be honest, another poster mentioned Meridian Integration, so I assumed that K-Scape didn't have anything specific beyond the usual trigger interface and the iPad app. Glad I'm wrong, because that's one more thing I'd love to root around in someday.

By Meridian integration I think he was referring to the ability to decode the Dolby True HD/DTS HD and output as LPCM (like almost every other blu-ray player out there). There are several older, but still capable, processors that can'd to the decoding, so this is a limitation of the K* (and quite unnecessary, given how most other, and far less expensive blu-ray players handle this).

 

[Transepoch]

I agree, but I'm going to sidetrack a little: has Kaleidescape ever given a definitive reason for not outputting 3D video? What about new "Mastered in 4K" Blu-Rays that include xvYCC metadata tables? Their website currently lists bitstream audio on the M300/M500 series players, so isn't that resolved? As for system integration, I'd much rather see an API available over the ethernet port for use in systems like Crestron or C4, than proprietary manufacturer integration.

But that's me. IANAI: I am not an Integrator.

As I recall, the official answer was all that stuff takes processing currently in use for the pretty new interface (and 3D was just starting to hit its upswing.) And bitstream is pass-thru/bypass-only, not decode/encode.

We have that on the Premier line and I just assumed that was available on the new C1. Is it not?


--Donnie

It's listed on the page as being there.

 

[justingn]

As I recall, the official answer was all that stuff takes processing currently in use for the pretty new interface (and 3D was just starting to hit its upswing.) And bitstream is pass-thru/bypass-only, not decode/encode.

Waaaaaaait a second. You mean K-Scape doesn't decode DTHD/DTSHDMA into multichannel LPCM? Doesn't that seriously affect certain special features on BD's, as well as the menu sound effects (No real loss on the latter, but the former could be a big deal)?

 

[cinelife]

Waaaaaaait a second. You mean K-Scape doesn't decode DTHD/DTSHDMA into multichannel LPCM? Doesn't that seriously affect certain special features on BD's, as well as the menu sound effects (No real loss on the latter, but the former could be a big deal)?

Not really. This is a non-issue for 99% of AV home theatre setups.

It's, funny, K get's all the blame for not decoding the HD Codecs (Dolby THD and DTS-MA) internally, while the PrePro manufacturer (usually Meridian/Levinson) gets a pass. Given the cost and size (available space inside the case for additional chips) of those prepro's, THEY should have the decoding capability as well. Every other prepro and Receiver that I'm aware of that has been manufactured in the past several years has that capability.

I'm one of those that was initially disappointed that the K Player's did not decode HD. I had a Halcro Prepro at the time, and my unit did not decode HD so I moved on to another prepro. After giving it more thought, I came to believe that audio specific components that cost $10K, $20K, $30K should be responsible for providing the decoding.

The comments against the K Player are usually "come on, even $200 Receiver's provide the decoding, why can't K?" My question is: "If $200 Receiver's have the capability, why don't $30k prepro's." (Also, most of these companies could, if they wanted to, provide upgrades to accommodate the HD decoding.)


Jim

 

[justingn]

Not really. This is a non-issue for 99% of AV home theatre setups.

It's, funny, K get's all the blame for not decoding the HD Codecs (Dolby THD and DTS-MA) internally, while the PrePro manufacturer (usually Meridian/Levinson) gets a pass. Given the cost and size (available space inside the case for additional chips) of those prepro's, THEY should have the decoding capability as well. Every other prepro and Receiver that I'm aware of that has been manufactured in the past several years has that capability.

I'm one of those that was initially disappointed that the K Player's did not decode HD. I had a Halcro Prepro at the time, and my unit did not decode HD so I moved on to another prepro. After giving it more thought, I came to believe that audio specific components that cost $10K, $20K, $30K should be responsible for providing the decoding.

The comments against the K Player are usually "come on, even $200 Receiver's provide the decoding, why can't K?" My question is: "If $200 Receiver's have the capability, why don't $30k prepro's." (Also, most of these companies could, if they wanted to, provide upgrades to accommodate the HD decoding.)


Jim

I'm squarely with you in that camp, Jim. If my $1000 Marantz AVR can decode the bitstreams, I see no reason why more expensive Pre/Pros couldn't. I know on the cheaper end (like mine), decoding the bitstream of BD content actually disables advanced features on the AVR like the Room Correction/Equalizer, which may be of concern to some folks. Meridian's solution to the problem of HDMI video/audio seems elegant (I do like the in-place upgrade, since it provides more value to your expensive components), but the lack of THD/HDMA decoding (at least according to their current manuals, which suggest PCM from the source) ultimately dropped the ball, especially since their technology is at the heart of THD!

Then again, if you have the money to spend on a brand new K System, you surely have the $500 or so for an AVR that decodes THD/HDMA streams and outputs over pre-outs to your amps. I was more concerned that some earlier BD discs/players that did bitstream output claimed it would affect special features, since they couldn't mux in the secondary audio into the hard-coded audio stream for the main feature (My PS3 still claims this when I switch to bitstream for DVDs, vs LPCM for BDs). Since that's not an issue, I've got no problems with K focusing on passing the rawest of the source material available, rather than mucking about with audio streams and the like internally. It's a desirable trait in this day and age of "Every device does everything".

 

[JohnJ]

I don't have a problem with the new C1 not integrating with the premiere line as long as K has an upgrade path to get to a 1U server. With the old C1 there never was an upgrade path. If you wanted to get rid if the C1 and get a 1U instead you were on your own to sell it.

Does anyone know if there is an upgrade path planned?

John

 

[cinelife]

I don't have a problem with the new C1 not integrating with the premiere line as long as K has an upgrade path to get to a 1U server. With the old C1 there never was an upgrade path. If you wanted to get rid if the C1 and get a 1U instead you were on your own to sell it.

Does anyone know if there is an upgrade path planned?

John

This has not been discussed, probably because the C1 is just being released.


Jim

 

[Croptop]

We have that on the Premier line and I just assumed that was available on the new C1. Is it not?


--Donnie

The Cinema line supports the same control protocol as the Premiere line and can be integrated with Creston, AMX, Control4, etc.

 

[baltz]

How does playback work on this if you haven't ripped the disc? Do you still have access to scenes, jump to the main movie, etc.? Or, is it equivalent to the "Play Disc" option? I ask because I have about 400 Blu-rays and wouldn't have room to rip them all.