NEWS: Kaleidescape Will Release Upgrade Details This Week

[JerryL]

Scott, is your theater fed via the Crestron setup?

It seems to me the reason for the Strato player is the 4K to your projector.

Can your Crestron distribute the 4K signal? If not then you would have to run it in a more direct path to the projector.

What I am thinking is what if you do something like this:

* Strato Player -> Projector

* 2 original M500 players remain Premiere for Music

* Add 1 M500/ 1 M300 for the Encore movie import/playback

* Accomplish this via some kind of switch(s) that will switch between the Premiere associated M players and the Encore associated M players.

* You won't have to change the Crestron hardware, its just a little extra programming to control the switch- Im thinking your output is HDMI but if its component then that can be switched too (and probably less handshaking issues!)

Don't know if this helps- I enjoy thinking about this stuff but its just a hobby for me and its been a while too!

 

[JerryL]

Two other questions for the group: How are Terra drives replaced and are the Terra servers upgradable?

Suppose larger hard drive capacities become available and someone has purchased the 2 drive version of the Terra- could they install the 2 larger drives inside the server?

And what if there is a drive failure? Is that something the end user can replace or does the unit need to be serviced by a dealer or sent back to Kaleidescape? If there is a drive failure on the Encore system- does that mean the content is unavailable for playback?

 

[Mr.Poindexter]

Also keep in mind that there are some limitations on how many movie streams can be played simultaneously from the hard drive of a player. If your system has multiple zones, but seldom has multiple movies playing simultaneously in different zones, then this may not affect you. But if multiple simultaneous playbacks are important, having the content on servers is the best way to go. Otherwise you may find a movie that you want to watch can't be played because the player storing it is already playing other content for other zones.

How many streams can a Strato player support? I think that is a major consideration. If it is 3, I am pretty confidant that there is no issue. If it is one, I do expect to have some hiccups if the wrong content is stored on the wrong player and I am guessing we don't get to direct where content will be recorded/downloaded.

 

[JohnJ]

I suppose the next question people will have will be if there is a trade-in program on gear. I will personally keep my M-class players for audio, but I can foresee not needing my second 3U server as soon as I transfer all my store content off it and I would expect my content to shrink - especially when the last two major studios come online and if they offer disc to digital upgrades. I could see the possibility of not needing one of my vaults if that happens and they allow disc to digital upgrades of the numerous TV series I have.

I also expect the transfer of movie store content to the Encore system will rapidly eat into the 6TB drives I would have on each of the players so a Terra server will be in my immediate future.

This is the question for me. Since I can only have BR discs loaded on my 3U server, do I purchase an extra 5 vaults to match my server capacity or do stick with the configuration I have and just add a separate 4K player/server?

John

 

[JerryL]

How many streams can a Strato player support? I think that is a major consideration. If it is 3, I am pretty confidant that there is no issue. If it is one, I do expect to have some hiccups if the wrong content is stored on the wrong player and I am guessing we don't get to direct where content will be recorded/downloaded.

Thats a good question. The info on their website doesn't say for the player, but for the server it says

Serves 4K Ultra HD movies simultaneously to up to seven viewing zones
• Serves Blu-ray movies simultaneously to up to 15 viewing zones
• Serves DVD quality movies simultaneously to up to 50 viewing zones

I'll take a guess and imagine the Strato player is at least close to this if not the same.

 

[sshearer]

Jerry,

Thank you so much for your ideas and thoughts. My Crestron hardware does not distribute the video in the theater. The theater has its own dedicated M500 connected directly to a Lumagen Radiance Pro video processor which then directly feeds the 4K projector. I can replace that M500 with a Strato player to get the 4K, but I would then lose the ability to listen to music stored on the K system. I could probably live with that, but there are times when I like to listen to music in the theater and would miss that.

My primary problem relates to being able to watch movies and music throughout the rest of the house. The Crestron hardware is component video based as HDMI was not being used much when I first had the equipment installed. My problem is that I will need 2 M500 players connected to the Encore system to be able to watch the movies on the rest of the TVs in the house (currently all non-4K) and 2 M500 players connected to the Premiere system to be able to listen to music in the rest of the house. The current Crestron hardware that distributes audio and video to the rest of the house has no more inputs available for source devices. At some point if I want to be able to watch 4K video throughout the rest of the hosue, I will probably have to replace the Crestron hardware, but I am not at that point and as the distributed TVs in the rest of the house are on the relatively smaller size, I don't see a quick need to add that capability for the time being.

All the remotes in the house (including the remote in the theater) relay on other Crestron hardware as far as the programming of the remote control codes and the distribution of the remote control codes to the various pieces of hardware in the theater and the rest of the house.

I didn't mean to turn this thread into a request for personal technical assistance (although it is greatly appreciated), but more as trying to fully understand how this new upgrade process would impact my current situation. I love doing this stuff also and am always trying to learn more and understand how everything works even though I rely on my local dealer do actually do most of the installation and programming of the system. I have no problem replacing components on my own, but don't have any expertise with Crestron hardware or programming.

Thanks again for your suggestions.

Scott

 

[MikeKobb]

Hello Jerry!

If I move my Premiere system over to Encore, and I have 1 Encore 4K Strato player, it seems all my previous movie store purchases move over to the Strato (or Terra server if present). Correct?

Correct!

What happens if I purchase a new movie in 4K? It seems the Strato is my only player capable of playing that format back. If I want to watch this movie on one of my M class players- then I will have to download a HD version of the same movie. I think I read somewhere that this is possible- but of course will take up more storage space. My question is- where will that HD version of the movie reside?

As you guessed, it will also download to the Strato (or Terra). An aspect of this upgrade architecture is that all Movie Store downloads have to reside on the Encore system. That's because the DRM updates that were required to be able to support 4K Ultra HD necessitate that of the content protected with the DRM system (of any resolution) have to be stored on Encore components.

One option would be to buy the physical disc for the HD content I guess...

You certainly could, but we expect that many if not most 4K Ultra HD titles will also include the Blu-ray quality version (sort of like how the Blu-ray quality movies today usually also include the DVD quality version).

Also for music- I do use the system for music- but not that often. I have an older multi zone K music player (forget the model now)... If I want to retain that music ability I would then keep the multizone music player associated with my Premiere system along with say an M500 for CD import?

Yes, or as HiFiGuy pointed out, you could just do the CD import with the Music Player.

Even though my Premiere servers and other Premiere devices (Vaults/ M Class Players) are now associated with Encore system, the CD data, and even newly imported CD data would still be recognizable to the remaining Premiere components (multizone music + M500 playback/import)?

Correct. The Premiere servers don't become part of the Encore system. They are still part of a separate system, running in a new special mode that still supports music, but that turns off the movie playback features in order to allow the Encore system to access the stored movies instead.

I have to say, overall I think you have done an excellent job with this program. Anyway, do I have the above correct?

Thanks!

 

[MikeKobb]

Hi again Jerry!

Two other questions for the group: How are Terra drives replaced and are the Terra servers upgradable?

The front panel of the Terra hinges open, and the four hard drive bays are behind that front panel. The drives are not hot swappable like in the 1U and 3U servers, so you turn the Terra off, swap the drive, and turn it on again. It requires an ordinary screwdriver.

Suppose larger hard drive capacities become available and someone has purchased the 2 drive version of the Terra- could they install the 2 larger drives inside the server?

I will double check, but I believe so.

And what if there is a drive failure? Is that something the end user can replace or does the unit need to be serviced by a dealer or sent back to Kaleidescape? If there is a drive failure on the Encore system- does that mean the content is unavailable for playback?

If a drive in a Terra fails, it should be well within the capabilities of a user to replace it. A drive failure in a Strato or Alto would require professional service because disassembly is required.

If a drive fails in a Terra server, the content on that drive is unavailable for playback. After the drive is replaced, the content is restored from the "cloud". You also have the option of beginning content restoration immediately, if the remaining drives in the system have enough space to accommodate it. When you restore content, it gets queued up in your download queue in the same way that Movie Store purchases do, so you could re-order that queue to prioritize which movies you want to recover first.

 

[cal87]

Just thinking a bit. It seems that with other studios coming on board, my 3U Premiere server should be able to be downsized - thinking one of the 4 drive models would be sufficient. However, 24TB on the Terra server does not seem sufficient. Any plans on using the existing 3U/14 drive/hotspare+RAID configuration for a new Encore server?

I am also curious about drives spinning down with the new components. With a Strato player in the bedroom, I was thinking I would not want a drive at all in the unit, but if they spin down when not in use, I would think about it further. Do the drives in the Terra server also spin down when not in use?

Heat and noise is definitely currently an issue with the 3U servers. Of course, I think a 2U server filled with 16TB SSDs would be more ideal.

 

[MikeKobb]

How many streams can a Strato player support? I think that is a major consideration. If it is 3, I am pretty confidant that there is no issue. If it is one, I do expect to have some hiccups if the wrong content is stored on the wrong player and I am guessing we don't get to direct where content will be recorded/downloaded.

We're doing final characterization of the Strato's streaming capacity now. I don't have final figures to share yet, I'm sorry. I can at least say that Jerry has guessed wrong in this case -- it is unlikely to be comparable to the Terra figures because of CPU and disk system differences.

In a system that contains Strato units with internal storage plus Terra servers, the storage in the Terra is filled first because it has the highest performance. Once the Terra is full, content will go to the Strato. You're correct that there's no explicit mechanism to direct where content goes -- it's all based on that algorithm.

 

[MikeKobb]

Hi Cal,

Just thinking a bit. It seems that with other studios coming on board, my 3U Premiere server should be able to be downsized - thinking one of the 4 drive models would be sufficient. However, 24TB on the Terra server does not seem sufficient. Any plans on using the existing 3U/14 drive/hotspare+RAID configuration for a new Encore server?

No plans at this point.

I am also curious about drives spinning down with the new components. With a Strato player in the bedroom, I was thinking I would not want a drive at all in the unit, but if they spin down when not in use, I would think about it further. Do the drives in the Terra server also spin down when not in use?

Yes, the drive in Strato spins down when the system is idle. (This is a slightly complicated concept in a multi-room system. You might be in the bedroom with the lights out, but if somebody in another zone is actively watching movies, the system is not idle, because they might choose a movie that happens to be stored on that Strato.)

The drives in the Terra server also spin down when the system is idle.

Heat and noise is definitely currently an issue with the 3U servers. Of course, I think a 2U server filled with 16TB SSDs would be more ideal.

Maybe someday. Or maybe we can get those neat little colored plastic storage things that they used in Star Trek. Those seemed nice.

In any event, though, the Terra is much, much quieter than a 1U or 3U server.

 

[appliedautomation]

The drives in the Terra server also spin down when the system is idle.

Slightly off topic, any chance we can have drives in a 1U or 3U spin down?

 

[Drhemi]

Hi Mike,

If I buy the Strato player without the 6TB drive, can it be added later? If so, I gather from what you said previously that it is a dealer install. What if your dealer is not close-by? Is it possible that tech support can authorize and instruct on the drive installation?

When you have completed testing, it would be interesting to see any differences in heat and noise for Strato players with/without drives.

If I do integrate the Premiere and Encore systems as is proposed, I understand that I must opt into the Disney "option." That is OK by me. If any other studios follow Disney's lead, would we then be automatically opted into those as well? The reason I ask is that currently I do not have all my Blu-rays imported into the Premiere system (for various reasons). If all of a sudden my combined system is opted into a new studio program and I have not yet imported those titles, what happens? Can I ungroup the systems, import the content and then regroup? If this is not possible, adequate warning of an upcoming change, so that one could prepare their content, would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for all you have done and for your commitment to this forum and your dedicated customers.

Wayne

 

[HCS]

will the KVAULT-10 disc vault be compatible, if so, will it function in the same way as the DV700?

 

[HiFiGuy1]

Thanks Mike for your very prompt reply. From a movie point of view, I am very satisfied with the solution and it is virtually a no-brainer for me.

However, as I thought about the music issue, the cost of involved to keep my K music collection is going to be very expensive and complicated as I understand the situation. Let me explain my current K movie and music setup. I have a distributed audio and video system that feeds everything in my house other than the theatre and one other TV. I have 2 M500 players that provide the movies to all of the rest of the TVs in the house and also provide the music that can be watched on all those TVs. In addition the music is distributed to ceiling speakers in most all of the rooms of the house. This is accomplished by hooking up 2 M500 players to a Crestron hardware and software system that distributes the movies and music throughout the house. The reason for 2 M500 players is to permit the playing of 2 different movies or 2 different music sources at the same time as not everyone may always want to watch the same movie or listen to the same music at the same time. Remote controls connected to the Crestron system control the movies and music on the TVs and Crestron wall-mounted control pads control the music going to the ceiling speakers. This system also distributes 2 DirecTV receiver signals along with a Roku and AppleTV signal throughout the house. The Crestron hardware is maxed out as far as source devices. If I want to continue to have a similar setup after adding a Strato player and Terra movie server, I would need to do at least the following:

1. Purchase 2 new M500 players and find rack space for them.
2. Replace the current Crestron hardware to provide the ability to add the two new M500 players (for music).
3. Do reprogramming of the remote controls and the Crestron control pads to access the new M500 players used for music and make any associated changes to take into account having to change to the web browser interface for the music.

I would need to have my dealer perform all these tasks and reprogramming. In my case, this would be a very expensive process. I would like to hope there would be a much easier and less expensive solution for me, but based on my understanding I will need to do the above.

Is there any chance the K might add music capability to the Encore system in the future?

This is going to be a very difficult decision for me that will either require a huge expense or altering dramatically my current setup in my house. Any suggestions or comments would be appreciated.

Scott

Scott,
Haven't read the couple of pages between this post and the most recent, but a four output K Music player from eBay or a trusted member on here would be more flexible than another pair of M500s, and way more cost effective. You can find one in excellent shape for $500 or so. If you need them in physically separate locations, you could use the K Music player and one or more M300s for music, since they're much less expensive than the M500s. They don't have disc trays, but with the new architecture, I am not sure they'd be useful anyway.

 

[JerryL]

Scott, you are welcome. Perhaps we can move this to another thread? I think you actually have the easiest options with your theater since its not as tied into the Crestron system. You could add an M300 or M500 to your theater and that would be grouped with the Premiere system for music duty. You'd just program your remote differently for music and movies.

I understand where you are at with the maxed out Crestron inputs- which is why I wonder if you could get some kind of external switcher to feed the Crestron- that really shouldn't be an issue. Extron used to make some really great ones which are Crestron controllable. I might even have a spare one in my basement if you really can't find one- I can go have a look.

As to the dedicated music player, I thought about this too but I think the issue for Scott would be that it seems he is using the music along with the on screen interface. I don't think the music player has an onscreen interface...

Mike thanks for the info- I guess that makes sense. I would hope the Strato could play at least a few simultaneous streams.

 

[sshearer]

Jerry and HiFiGuy1. Thank you both for your great suggestions. I was not aware of the 4 output K music player and will have to take a look at that and see about how I would incorporate a music interface into the system. Jerry, your idea of resolving the Crestron hardware issue with an external Crestron controllable switcher is also an excellent suggestion.

I really appreciate the suggestions and advice from all the people on this forum.

Scott

 

[MikeKobb]

A couple of folks have asked about the sound levels produced by the Strato player. We have not done formal measurements in the anechoic chamber yet, but we have done those measurements with a representative Alto player, and subjectively, Strato sounds the same or slightly quieter than Alto.

Measurements of the Alto player were 24dBA at 1 meter from the front of the unit, with the unit sitting on a tabletop in an open room. When the hard drive spins down, that drops to 22dBA. The fan continues to run in standby because the CPU is still active so that the player can remain responsive to the network, be available for downloads, or playback requests from another zone, etc.

There's a low-power standby option that shuts the CPU down, and at that point the fan turns off and the unit is almost silent, barring any slight hum from the power supply. In that mode, the player is essentially no longer part of the system, though, so if somebody elsewhere in the house wanted to play a movie on its hard drive, they could not.

Please note that these measurements were for a representative player, and may not be the same on all players.

 

[MikeKobb]

Slightly off topic, any chance we can have drives in a 1U or 3U spin down?

We don't have any plans to add drive spin-down to these servers. It would be a substantial project.

 

[MikeKobb]

will the KVAULT-10 disc vault be compatible, if so, will it function in the same way as the DV700?

Right now, we don't expect the KVAULT-10 to be supported on the Encore system. You could leave it (and its associated player) grouped with the Premiere system to use for disc import, but it would not be able to provide disc presence for playback of imported Blu-ray discs in that configuration.

I'm sorry, that's probably disappointing news for some customers. It's a lot of effort to support it, unfortunately, and given the fact that it's not able to perform playback from optical disc as the M700/DV700 can, it's not a very good fit for Encore systems.