Kaleidescape back in court in May 2011?

[cinelife]

Yup, I locked myself in a hotel room for the two weeks before my Bar, my wife was there studying for the Bar as well (yes, we actually only studied). We put in 18 - 20 hour days for what turned out to be 12 straight days, and although we both passed, I really had no idea how I did on the exam until the results showed up. So don't be surprised if you come out of the exam scratching your head, it's normal.

I decided against taking more than a couple state exams, and when my defense work took me to different states, I'd file using other attorney's offices and they would come sit at the table during trial. I actually paid a guy $50K once to come sit at my table during a 12b(5) trial many years ago. He sat there reading Clavell's Taipan during most of the Prosecution's case. Those were some crazy days. Hope you have some of the same!

Hang in there and good luck!


Jim

 

[JerryL]

So, does the group think if DVD authentication becomes reality, should they simply "grin and bare it"?

Cheers

A long time ago in a galaxy... oh wait a second- it actually happened right here! I signed a bunch of papers that said I wouldn't copy things to my K system that I don't actually own. And I haven't. I suspect most are in that boat. Or I hope so. If they require us to now vault our DVDs, I would first go back to those papers to see exactly whom they are between because my distant memory was one of them was with the DVDCCA and IMHO if thats the case then my position is we had an agreement back then and, again going from memory, I don't remember there being a section that allows them to unilaterally change material terms.

However, if it is, then we have to consider the options and make a choice. It would be kind of ironic if the newer technology, Blu Ray, laid out the path to make DVD servers "legit" in the eyes of the DVDCCA.

 

[sshearer]

Here is what I think could actually pan out on this if the DVD-CCA removes their head from their ass

As an attorney I enjoyed reading your thoughts on this issue. I agree that you should do well on your bar exam. I still remember taking my bar exam 38 years ago and all the studying that went into preparing for the bar exam.

I would only take issue with one aspect of your analysis. Based on past and current history, I have serious doubts that the DVD-CCA or the underlying studios make economically rational decisions when it comes to trying to maximize their profits from sales of movies to consumers. In this case, they are alienating those purchasers who are most likely and best able to purchase more of their products and forcing users to utilize allegedly illegal third-party software and unlicensed (by DVD-CCA) hardware to best enjoy their movies.

There is an interesting article at electronichouse.com
http://www.electronichouse.com/article/why_are_digital_downloads_so_pricey/
about the pricing of digital downloads (the new UltraViolet system) and as the article indicates they are pricing ultra-violet moves at $19.99 - $22.99 when you can purchase the same movie on DVD for $7 or rent that movie for $2. Do they really think people are going to pay that much for a digital copy only? A rational person would think that the cost of a DVD or Blu-ray, which has to include the cost of manufacturing, packaging and shipping should be a great deal more than the cost of providing only an electronic copy. This type of thinking by the movie studios makes me very concerned about the eventual cost of downloaded movies through the Kaleidescape system. I certainly hope I am wrong and more rational thinking eventually happens.

Scott

 

[nineball]

Thanks.. it's those other 18 areas that are such a pita!

A very cogent and well reasoned presentation. You raise a number of positions that are compelling and frankly outside of any previous game plan from my shallow experience.

The thought that this whole thing might move to something quite positive through a re-licensing agreement is very compelling. There are too many new features and possibilities from that outcome to even contemplate here.

I do agree that time is the DVD's greatest enemy. I feel a wee bit foolish reading your assessment as I thought the DVD was already extinct (except Mr. Poindexter's of course) and BD disks are on the endangered species list. I have a couple of thousand dvd's which frankly very rarely get played because the quality difference compared to BD is like black and white compared to colour on my system.

The other notion I find confounding is that there is any legitimacy to the belief that there is ANY benefit to someone who wants to steal material through a Kaleidescape system. It's just plain stupid. If anyone is planning to invest in this expensive upscale closed system to deny the studios income they deserve to have their heads examined........ However, I do understand the difference between what is right and what is legal. Obviously the DVD_CCA does as well and they would rather be legal than right.

From a business standpoint I believe the position of the DVD_CCA is profoundly stupid. You are correct in your strong suggestion that they ought to get in front of this thing. My position is that if they don't, and history suggests they won't, that Kaleidescape should look hard and long at a technology solution that bypasses any requirement for disks of any kind. From everything I have read the current plan is to amend the current technology to house DVD's (M800 DV) which can be done in a couple of months. If the plan stops there then all this becomes moot and the company will simply be a footnote in the apple history books.

Any way you look at it this company's future looks very dim without a re-licensing deal.

Again, very nice effort. I'm sure once you pass the bar your new profession will beat this common sense out of you before you know it!!!!!

Peter

 

[brodricj]

...I signed a bunch of papers that said I wouldn't copy things to my K system that I don't actually own. And I haven't. I suspect most are in that boat...

There have been a number of Kaleidescape dealer listings of 1U servers on eBay over the past 6 months or so, each stating that the servers are loaded with content. For example, here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230733125749&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:US:1123

When seeing these I ask the seller:

"Regarding the content stored on the system, are the original discs also included in the sale?"

and this is what the seller told me:

"No the original discs do not come with it but there is no need to have them. You don't need them anymore."

to which I replied:

"But you need the disc for each title on the system to comply with the Kaleidescape user agreement and copyright, true?"

to which he replied:

"Yes to put them on there but once they re on the system you don't need them anymore."

As I said, at least 3 dealers have done this in the last 6 months or so, selling servers loaded with content but without the discs. I haven't come across a single dealer sale of a server on eBay ever saying they must erase the content before selling the server.

So the practice of

...I signed a bunch of papers that said I wouldn't copy things to my K system that I don't actually own. And I haven't. I suspect most are in that boat...

at least with dealer sales on eBay, isn't in alignment with that signed bunch of papers.

 

[Mr.Poindexter]

It is also worth noting that a fully loaded 3U server with 3TB drives holds 5400 DVDs and even at full retail plus the hard disk flooding surcharge that works out to less than $7 per DVD. Taking the surcharge out, the price is just slightly over $6 per DVD so one could poke holes in the old argument that the cost of the Kaleidescape is so high that it would just be cheaper to buy the DVDs legally.

 

[cinelife]

There have been a number of Kaleidescape dealer listings of 1U servers on eBay over the past 6 months or so, each stating that the servers are loaded with content. For example, here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230733125749&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:US:1123

When seeing these I ask the seller:

"Regarding the content stored on the system, are the original discs also included in the sale?"

and this is what the seller told me:

"No the original discs do not come with it but there is no need to have them. You don't need them anymore."

to which I replied:

"But you need the disc for each title on the system to comply with the Kaleidescape user agreement and copyright, true?"

to which he replied:

"Yes to put them on there but once they re on the system you don't need them anymore."

As I said, at least 3 dealers have done this in the last 6 months or so, selling servers loaded with content but without the discs. I haven't come across a single dealer sale of a server on eBay ever saying they must erase the content before selling the server.

So the practice of



at least with dealer sales on eBay, isn't in alignment with that signed bunch of papers.

So who are these dealers? Provide some names and we can "re-educate" them regarding the licensing agreement. (A PM would be fine.) Personally, if I were K, I'd have someone inquire, and if content were included, that dealer's license with K would be terminated.

It's a very simple process to delete content before selling the Server. I never did buy the "I probably already own most of what's on the Server already, so just send it 'as is' and I'll delete the content I do not own" comment. Server content should never even be part of the conversation. Sell the Server with empty disks, no excuses (besides, then you might be able to sell a speed loader), and never consider selling one with content still already installed, unless it is coming directly from K.


Jim

 

[brodricj]

All we know are the eBay seller ID and location, their dealership isn't evident from the listings. I do know that TB has on occasion "enlightened" sellers spruiking themselves as dealers when it comes to advertising included content with eBay sales. It makes me wonder whether they are really dealers at all, because I can't imagine a dealer not knowing of the requirements in this regard.

 

[cinelife]

K will act if they know who to go after. They are deadly serious when it comes to unauthorized use of a K system and will go after dealers violating the dealer agreement. Obviously, this is not always easy to do in this age of ebay, V'gon, and others, but they are willing.


Jim

 

[JerryL]

Then thats just a violation on the part of those dealers. That has nothing to do on whether there is privity of contract between myself and the DVDCCA or with K Scape. How many K systems are out there. If there are a few bad apples then they need to be rounded up.

As far as Ultraviolet is concerned- have you guys ever tried to use it? Its a horrible mess. Horrible. I'm pretty good with computers and it just makes you want to cry. I resorted to emailing their customer support that Id like a disc with an iTunes digital copy on it and after a bunch of back and forth, I got it. This is what I have to go through to do things by the book. They don't make it easy on you.

 

[Transepoch]

This thread now seems to be getting more exposure:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-31001_3-5...-copying-media-servers/?tag=mncol;editorPicks

Cheers

I would've expected better from cNet than this...

In 2004, the DVD Copy Control Association (DVD CCA) sued Kaleidescape. That group, which includes all the major Hollywood studios and some consumer electronics companies, licenses the anticopying protections on DVDs and Blu-ray discs.

No, the DVD-CCA does not handle BDs. But then, they got off their "useless box attached to tv" podium before going after TiVo for allowing us to save unwatched content longer than the 90-day limit, so who cares?

 

[carajo]

. I made the decision yesterday to never buy another DVD. It will have to be on BR or I will not own it. I will also look to only purchase releases that are BR only, not those that include the DVD, and/or digital copy. I know that might be a problem for some releases, but I'll try and wait for the BR only version. That's my response to the DVD-CCA (not that they care).


Jim

1000%, I stopped buying DVD's altogether and will only buy BR

 

[brodricj]

1000%, I stopped buying DVD's altogether and will only buy BR

I'm still buying DVDs, and I like the way things are just now:

1. Buy DVD.
2. Put DVD in player and import content to server.
3. Put DVD back in case and put in big box in cupboard.

I hope I don't have to change step 3 to "put DVD in M700" because then I will just stop buying DVDs.

I'm still buying DVDs today because the picture quality isn't that far off BR (I'm using a Lumagen), and until there's an M-Class player that can decode to LPCM the sound quality of vanilla DTS/DD is good enough for me. Capacity issues of the 1U server is another major consideration, all things considered chewing up 5 times the space on the server for a BR title over its DVD alternative is difficult to justify for me.

I will stop buying DVDs only when the next-gen player supports LPCM and the surcharge on the 3TB ends, or if I need to store it in an M700.

 

[Jerry D]

Downloads are the way forward. Teenagers today (I'm told) are already starting to regard CDs and DVDs in the same way as us 40 something yr olds think of vinyl. Quaint and old fashioned.
I think K needs a reasonably priced download service as soon as possible.

 

[iansilv]

Sure, but teenagers today also need their parents to fill out their college applications...

 

[nineball]

Downloads are the way forward. Teenagers today (I'm told) are already starting to regard CDs and DVDs in the same way as us 40 something yr olds think of vinyl. Quaint and old fashioned.
I think K needs a reasonably priced download service as soon as possible.

I agree Jerry and I have to admit that a penny just dropped for me on this whole issue. I frankly, am embarrassed to say that I had not made a distinction between BD and DVDs in the sense that I thought the legal outcome would shut the doors on the whole company and not just the DVDs. I had not realized that the BD format was legal. Personally I would NOT buy any more DVDs because the quality relative to BD is sub standard. In fact there are DVD's I haven't purchased because I will only buy BD versions. I don't think I would go to any great lengths to support DVD's even if I had to dump my library as a result of this thing. Besides, teenagers have it right all disks are dead. Our challenge will be how to deal with the downloads in the future. This is a huge challenge for Kaleidescape and there is not much time left to get in front of it. If apple does two things as the Toronto Globe and Mail article suggests they have already done then the competitive advantage is about to disappear big time. Apparently they have integrated SIRI into the interface with some attention to the medium and management of the home theater environment. So all you will have to do is call out the name of the movie and it will start playing. I expect that the other huge announcement will be that the format is now available in 1080P and that the 'purchased' movies will be formatted according to the device architecture. Better still there will never be the need to repurchase the movie as the record of your ownership will be kept in the cloud forever. For those that have the system capabilities as far as storage is concerned (like Kaleidescape) you can store the movie locally if you want for your yacht or plane providing that K will allow electronic imports!!!!

This outcome is either going to be very depressing or very exciting for Kaleidescape owners depending on how creative this company can be in relatively short order.

Peter

 

[JerryL]

I think if you want the full quality of what BR can offer then it still trumps downloads but yes, the writing is on the wall for physical media. It may be early days of the decline- but it is a declining proposition. Id love to see K do downloads and Id love to see even higher resolution (yes that is asking a super-dooper mega lot because they'd have to remaster the movies- but since Im asking- I figure might as well ask for the good stuff), oh and LPCM decoding please.

 

[iansilv]

OK- here is another thought on the whole downloads issue: What is the hold-up on getting Kaleidescape setup with downloadable movies? Why was this not done years ago? I keep hearing about issues of economies of scale and the size of a customer base. What is so difficult about supporting multiple client-server download ecosystems? There is this notion that the studios do not want to cater to a bunch of incompatible download systems. But why is that a problem, and why would they have to "cater" to them?

Right now, Apple is creating the only real successful download ecosystem and it is becoming quite powerful. My only complaint with it is that their highest quality files do not come close to BluRay- no 1080P or dolby True HD audio. So for me, the system is moot. But to most people who have an apple TV, it is an easy decision based on not swapping disks and instant downloads.

As the ecosystem grows larger, Apple consolidates more and more bargaining power against the movie studios. This is bad for the movie studios.

Additionally, Apple's iTunes is an open system- anyone can grab the physical file as they include their computers and windows PCs in that ecosystem. Eventually the encryption will be cracked and the original perfect digital copy will be let loose. I think it has been already, and Apple periodically updates their protection. So this is far from the studios' ideal system.

On top of that, iTunes does not have a lot of movies. This is the only way studios are fighting Apple's growing influence- by refusing to allow movies on to it. Eventually the ecosystem will, without competition, become so prevalent it will be impossible for any studio to ignore and they will be forced to cater to Apple. Unless....

They realize that they do not need to "cater" to any ecosystem. This notion of a single standard being the only way to sell to consumers has been driven by the need to consolidate costs to get a new physical media system in to peoples' homes. Costs like advertising and retail space.

If the studios simply got together and setup requirements for encryption standards and closed systems that watermark each file, are constantly or regularly connected to the internet for updates, and had no physical connection to copy media or OS access, they could let the manufacturers fight over capabilities, marketing budgets, retail space, etc.

There is no longer a cumbersome marketing movement that needs to be made to get digital downloads in front of consumers. The studios can simply create the digital file and run it through the software that each manufacturer provides to package their files for use in their system. The studios could even host the files for each manufacturer's storefront on their servers if they were paranoid. We are talking about them handling the raw files- it whatever native format they want- and releasing them directly to the consumers, through the storefronts created by the system stores hosted by each manufacturer. And every manufacturer could support different files. Some might choose to only host 720P files with dolby digital sound in a walmart-friendly system. Some might offer up to 4K with 13.1 3d positional audio. But no matter what, the studios handle the "masters" and just run the raw files through each systems' processing. I think it would not be that daunting to deal with a large number of incompatible systems as a studio. Most likely, there would be only a few standards. But encryption and individual consumer watermarking could be done in the studios' control.

THIS WOULD ALLOW DOWNLOAD SYSTEMS TO BE SOLD TO CONSUMERS AS SYSTEMS WITHOUT ANY SORT OF CONTENT LIMITS- JUST LIKE DVD AND BLURAY NEW RELEASES, EVERY MOVIE WOULD BE RELEASED TO A DOWNLOAD SYSTEM THAT CONFORMED TO THE STUDIOS' STANDARDS. And this would happen on the same release date as DVD and BluRay.

We are not talking about shipping pallets of Star wars on BluRay. We are talking about digital downloads. If the studios got on this right, they could fragment the marketplace for download and play systems (muddy the waters), charge whatever they wanted and control their IP as well as their bargaining position. There is no need for rigid standards when physical media is no longer used and codecs are largely interchangeable.

What amazes me is that Kaleidescape is the MOST IDEAL example of a download capable system ever. How freaking hard is it for a studio manager to say, "OK- so- Bob- that computer over there with the file on it that we put on all those shiny disks- send it over to those Kaleidescope guys. Like, use dropbox or something. Why? Because they are going to pay us $10 every time someone downloads it off their servers. HOW MANY? I don't know- a shizz load. They are all oil billionaires. I guess they like Kazaam..."

That's an obvious over simplification, but I just do not understand why they have not done this yet. Even if Kaleidescape was a total of 1000 customers in the whole world- where are the costs associated with handling the market? There is no longer a need for standards and economies of scale because no physical media production, marketing and distribution needs to be done with digital media.

And as for worrying about the strength and reliability of the broadband connections to consumers' homes? Let that sort itself out. People are decent problem solvers when Batman won't download.

I would think that ideally, the Studios would want as many small, incompatible digital download ecosystems as possible to better consolidate their bargaining power. And I would think that letting the system manufacturers handle the production of systems and the customer service would be in their best interests too.

This whole Ultraviolet thing is like the stupid rich kid being promoted in the office by his father. It's just got "P.I.T.A." written all over it. "Buy a disk through an online digital library that you can stream, download, print, watch, scan, and butt F any way you want!!" Are you kidding me? I do not give an F about "Digital online libraries I can stream from." Cut the cord already studios! CREATE THE STANDARD by which electronics manufacturers can build systems with the knowledge that they will be able to offer every single movie available as a new release as they are released, and back-catalogs of movies will be released quickly to their customers, and the manufacturers will build and sell those systems. Leave the quality and operation parameters up to the manufacturers, only include in the standards how encryption works and how physical interfaces do not exist for copying media. The end.

Suddenly, we have small, slick-looking servers and smaller clients that are sitting under televisions throughout the house. LG, Samsung, Sony, Sharp, Panasonic, Dell- they are all fighting and competing to build them. Clients are around $99 bucks- no moving parts, silent, wireless or wired depending on the model. Servers are a little bit more expensive, but are expandable with off-the-shelf hard drives. One goes bad, it gets replaced. System croaks? You can re-download your movies for free. Heck- sprinkle some peer-to-peer in there for file transfer and you have reduced bandwidth needs. And they are all- yes that's right- incompatible with each other because each manufacturer controls their own system. Which is annoying for the consumer, but whatever...

And if you really want this to work- convince Kaleidescape to license a version of their OS like Android is licensed to run these systems. Call your standard "K-Scape." Or "M-Scape." Or something. Just do not let Apple dictate the movement on digital downloads.

 

[JerryL]

My WILD CRAZY guess is among the many many different kinds of people in this world, there are movie people and computer people. And it seems they are often at odds with each other- which is silly because another group of people: we the consumers of content (WTCoC) just wants to use our computing devices to watch the movie or show. But it seems to me that the content producers and owners for whatever reason(s) don't like K Scape and thus won't want to work with them on any kind of download system. It just seems more political to me than anything else. Thats a shame. Theres an opportunity here. But they are too stubborn to take it.

 

[iansilv]

I just wish they would realize that the future is in fact downloads and decide on the standards for what concerns them most- encryption and copy protection. Watermarking files, encryption updates, and closed systems are all ways to combat copying. They exist now... and dragging BluRay coexistence along is just complicating things with ultraviolet.

Does anyone have an idea of when movie downloads will be setup on Kaleidescape? I know its in testing right now...