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Kaleidescape back in court in May 2011?

Taking from an article at:
http://www.cepro.com/article/kaleidescape_vs_dvd_cca_judge_rules_against_movie_servers/

"If it stands as written, the DVD CCA can permanently prohibit Kaleidescape from selling its DVD movie servers, unless the manufacturer adds some kind of authentication mechanism, such a carousel that stores the physical discs. The DVD CCA also can collect court costs.

This landmark case could set a precedent that would make virtually all current DVD movie servers illegal"

I take that last sentence that there is no such thing as grandfathered; old and new would need the authentication mechanism which makes sense to be "compliant".

The only released product to allow for that is the vault or the incredible experience and joy of having to place the DVD in the movie player every time you want to watch it which is not how this has been marketed.

IMHO, Kaleidescape can get ahead with alot of positive marketing spin by just having the product advertised for blu-ray and music content going forward. Doing something beyond a firmware fix and a case (like antennagate) like a timed (good for so long) merchandise credit will result in existing customer loyalty and will probably pull some upgrade sales forward or in due to a better than usual promotion. This is an easy win-win unless you are an appeals litigator.

Plus as I mentioned, I would really like to see an official statement versus speculation based on online articles. Speculation like what is happening here isn't good for marketing.

Cheers
 
Taking from an article at:
http://www.cepro.com/article/kaleidescape_vs_dvd_cca_judge_rules_against_movie_servers/

"If it stands as written, the DVD CCA can permanently prohibit Kaleidescape from selling its DVD movie servers, unless the manufacturer adds some kind of authentication mechanism, such a carousel that stores the physical discs. The DVD CCA also can collect court costs.

This landmark case could set a precedent that would make virtually all current DVD movie servers illegal"

I take that last sentence that there is no such thing as grandfathered; old and new would need the authentication mechanism which makes sense to be "compliant".

The only released product to allow for that is the vault or the incredible experience and joy of having to place the DVD in the movie player every time you want to watch it which is not how this has been marketed.

IMHO, Kaleidescape can get ahead with alot of positive marketing spin by just having the product advertised for blu-ray and music content going forward. Doing something beyond a firmware fix and a case (like antennagate) like a timed (good for so long) merchandise credit will result in existing customer loyalty and will probably pull some upgrade sales forward or in due to a better than usual promotion. This is an easy win-win unless you are an appeals litigator.

Plus as I mentioned, I would really like to see an official statement versus speculation based on online articles. Speculation like what is happening here isn't good for marketing.

Cheers

I'm not an attorney, but I think any statement from K* similar to what you propose could be construed as a sign to the DVD CCA that K* is willing to cave. So yes, perhaps they should state something publicy to get out in front of this, but I don't think it is in their best interest to plan for losing.

In regard to grandfathered or not, there's absolutely nothing the DVD CCA could do to someone with a K* system that is not connected to the internet (such as one installed in a plane or yacht). That may limit new content from being uploaded, but the DVD CCA couldn't require K* systems to be removed (this isn't North Korea!)
 
This thread seems to skewing from the OP's original subject of the lawsuit status.

So a question to this, has Kaleidescape made an official statement regarding this?

I have searched on the corporate website, and while I cannot get into the Extranet any longer, cannot find anything on the public site. I did find the same FAQ entries that seem to indicate that all is well and good regarding the use of DVD media.

So the rant portion of this reply is. . .

This ruling seems to end the commerical DVD without a vault feature; and a majority of appeals seem to be characterized as legal long shots.

For current owners who haven't yet made it to blu-ray technology, they now have a very nice music server. For us owners that did, we just lost 1/3rd of the feature set of what our product previously provided.

IMHO if a public statement has not been made yet one should be made and it should describe that this product is being positioned and advertised for it's music and blu-ray capabilities going forward; and offer recompense to current owners in the form of merchandise credit to allow them to upgrade into blu-ray vaults and larger capacity drives beyond the current upgrade promotions.

IMHO this is Kaleidescape's "antennagate" and they should acknowledge the issue, address current owners, and lead on with blu-ray until the next product launch.

Cheers


See my post earlier (#68, on page 7 of this thread), it is a statement from K's CEO regarding the tentative ruling.

Addressing the rant::D

K has always operated on a good faith belief that they had a contractual right to sell the systems being sold. One would have to read all of the legal arguments made to this point to fully understand K's position. Being a lawyer, I not only understand K's position, I agree with it. Many other lawyers I know also agree with K. Obviously, there are some that disagree.

That said, our legal system is an adersarial system. It allows opposing views to litigate their differences if compromise cannot be reached. K was (is) unwavering in their belief the contract they signed allows them to manufacture and sell these systems. All was well until the DVD-CCA unilaterally added restrictions to the original contract (they argue these restrictions were impliedly present). K was sued by the DVD-CCA to enforce these restrictions, and we are now at this point in the litigation. If the tentative ruling stands, K has said they will appeal, again. It's hard to say where this will all end up, or how we will be affected, assuming we are affected at all (I do not believe current owner's will be affected.)

With that as background, I personally do not believe K owes us anything. They operated in good faith, believing all along they would prevail, and they still believe that ultimately they WILL prevail. What were they supposed to do? Shutdown the business? Stop selling systems temporarily (same affect as closing the business)? Notify prospective buyers about the litigation and possible outcomes? (That was already public knowledge that any cursory search would have revealed. I suspect some did their due diligence and decided against purchasing, while others saw the value in a K system, believed as K does that they have a right to this use of their owned content, and bought a K system). K never had a doubt about their legal position, and certainly had a legal right to continue business as usual during the case. This is evidenced by the fact that no injunction was ever issued preventing K from conducting business, and they operated accordingly.

If anyone wants to place blame, it should be directed at the DVD-CCA, not K, IMO.

NOTE: Obviously this is all my opinion, and clearly I'm a K supporter. Being a dealer, I believe in the product, the right to import owned content, and K's legal position in the ongoing case with the DVD-CCA.
 
Sorry, I see others already posted links to the "official" statement from K's CEO.

Jim
 
Responding to: "What makes you think they operated in good faith?"

In short, K's introduction of new and innovative products to enhance the user experience over the years, their continuing effort to improve the KEAOS, evidenced by all of the improvements we seen over the years, the financial expenditure to make all that happen, their ongoing presence at the usual trade shows, etc., are all indications of a company believing in their own longevity (impliedly their legal position) and committed to their stated vision for the company and it's stakeholders.



Jim
 
Finally, all the product development in the world isn't going to help if the content providers are not willing to support you. How long did it take for The Beatles to be available on iTunes? Are all titles available for download via Netflix? .... And what do we do when we allow content providers to take away our films like Disney does with pulling titles for marketing reasons or just because they don't like the film any longer?

Excellent point...RE: Netflix instant... My 5 yr old son was getting (specifically) into the Spectacular Spider-Man (hard to find Superhero stuff that is age-appropriate for a 5yr old and this was a good one). One day, I go to turn on an episode for him and POOF, it's gone. The "window" or contract must have been up with the content owner (Disney). That is the big issue for Netflix and other streaming services. Guess who is going to be buying the DVD of Spectacular Spider-Man?

Apple seems to have pretty solid contracts with all the majors but contracts are not forever.

Netflix, as has been well-documented, has been spending money like drunken sailors on content contracts because the Studios realized they made a mistake the first time around by charging too little. As a result, they aren't going to be able to buy all the content in the world, and have very little of their own original content, so they are at the mercy of the Studios.


If anyone wants to place blame, it should be directed at the DVD-CCA, not K, IMO.

Since the DVD-CCA is "basically" the Six Majors, it would be interesting to see how/if this affects K's ability to get agreements for downloadable content from those Studios as part of their new download service AND whether some kind of settlement/compromise is reached in this case in order to secure those agreements?
 
That fuels the fire "I was thinking of selling my DVDs on eBay"
Then you should delete them from your server
Exactly right. that post about selling on ebay is just what the DVD-CCA is looking for. evidence that K owners sell (or borrow) discs and load the content without keeping possession of the disc itself.
Luckily, for me and most users, having the convenience of a Kaleidescape has made me buy MORE movies than I ever would have before. Destroying functionality in my Kaleidescape server will cause me to look elsewhere at solutions, legal or not, and will discourage DVD/BR purchases.
--josh
 
Regarding the dealer letter: In searching the website that I could get to, not the dealer extranet, I found no official information which is my complaint. My dealer has not shared any information thus far. Seeing an email of a posting which probably shouldn't be in the wild is nice, but public and official would be best. How many other pieces of information exist like this? I would love to see the equivalient DVD-CCA memo. :)

Regarding the point of being a K supporter: If Kaleidescape "gave in" (as someone earlier said) to the DVD-CCA at this point I would applaud that. If Kaleidescape would comply via authentication for those who have DVD content (e.g. Raiders of the Lost Ark) where no blu-ray equivalent exists; so what at this point? I would bet against the KPLAYER-6000 being Kaleidescape's go to / best selling piece since the KPLAYER-M300/M500s and vault's release due to the customer profile involved.

I see Kaleidescape as a premium brand offering a premium product relevant to today's market. IMHO DVDs are yesterday's technology and Kaleidescape can evolve past it using it's existing "compliant" product offerings and does not need to stall this in court any longer or enrich litigators any further. I thank Kaleidescape legal for stalling this since 2004 and making this a pyrrhic victory for the DVD-CCA. It became pyrrhic versus a product death-blow since Kaleidescape now offers blu-ray products.

Regarding the good point of an injunction: It's pretty logical that when the judge makes the ruling after input from both parties, that the DVD-CCA injunction is likely. The legal gray area now has another ruling unlike 2004 when this began. Anyone remember RealNetworks?

So Kaleidescape should get ahead of this to fully legitimize the product and remove the cloud that hangs over this product category.

They could cut DVD all together, but that would alienate the current customer base. New customers probably wouldn't care.

If Kaleidescape complied using a vault as an authentication mechanism and compensated using a merchandise credit like other vendors have done (e.g. a credit for a free case so you can hold your iPhone in any ackward way you choose), they could avoid this alienation and spur upgrade sales and it demonstrates that they have done something about it. Some existing customers may never be satisfied, but a majority will be and will remain loyal to the brand.

Kaleidescape could also wait it out for a court to decide, work through possible injunctions, work the appeal process; but what happy ending will that provide? Based on the dealer letter's indication of court bias, probably not a good one. If this goes for another 3 years, DVDs will be as relevant as VHS is today.

Regarding the point about enforcement: If Kaleidescape issued software updates that would enable an authetication mechanism to be enforced on DVDs; having a player offline / blocked even in North Korea wouldn't make it any more legal.

Cheers
 
To me that article is simply an article written by a journalist and not legally controlling. Until things change thats my take. I really don't see much of a cloud here- maybe thats just me. I also don't see this as "antenna gate" as there there was a question over the performance of the product that was affected by foreseeable actions. Here the performance isn't being questioned. I most certainly hope they do not go to a vault authentication setup as you suggest. What a pain in the neck. I've played by the rules as I think most here have and I also think K did based on my reading of their papers (a while ago I admit). I also think DVD is still a relevant format for many things. First there are questions of content availability. Second there are times that DVD is a better choice- for example seasons of your favorite TV show. Thats a lot of storage if you go with Blu Ray.
 
but what happy ending will that provide?

Considering how many DVDs still have to be bought, because there is no BD alternative, being able to watch them without validation or vaultification is certainly a happy ending to me.

But enough of that, on to further spurious supposition: so, short of the sky falling, consensus of a loss is that existing owners are grandfathered... What does that mean when it's time to buy a new servers because the factories making larger drives decides to flood and set production back a year? Is our system as a whole grandfathered, thus purifying the new server? Are we now tainted? Do we need to group our content and replicate the BD copies onto the tainted servers so we can use the grandfathered servers for DVDs?
 
Servers are servers, but accounts are accounts. I would suspect that accounts are grandfathered, not servers. That would mean when it comes time to sell your server, the new buyer would be bound by the new license agreement. At least, that is how I would envision it. Two 3U servers is the most I can envision needing for my DVD collection, given we can now fit about 5,400 DVD titles on a single 3U server w/3TB drives. I do not believe their system is currently set up to handle 10,800 titles unless they have made changes to the way the files are indexed. Seriously though, I would have to wonder about anybody who needed to have that many titles on tap. (Is that like driving? - Anybody going faster than you is crazy and anybody slower than you is an idiot...)
 
The industry will continue to talk about this for awhile I'm sure. I made the decision yesterday to never buy another DVD. It will have to be on BR or I will not own it. I will also look to only purchase releases that are BR only, not those that include the DVD, and/or digital copy. I know that might be a problem for some releases, but I'll try and wait for the BR only version. That's my response to the DVD-CCA (not that they care).:)


Jim
 
This lawsuit is just complete bullshit. There is an incredible opportunity here for the DVD-CCA and the movie studios they represent to profit by extending the tail of the DVD market by licensing K's IP. But first, I wanted to post thoughts on potential real-world rulings in this lawsuit, as I have been studying a lot of contract law lately... for the bar this month. It's scary to type those last two words, so please forgive me for my rambling, incoherent study break.

Regarding the possibility of past servers being suddenly rendered obsolete, I do not think it will happen because this is a contract dispute between Kaleidescape and the DVD-CCA. Contract disputes are not generally decided in a way to "punish" the breaching party, only to compensate the non-breaching party to the position they were prior to the breach.

1. DVD-CCA asks for relief in the form of K's existing servers being prevented from playing copied DVDs. Essentially, they ask for a mandatory software update to be made by K that goes out as soon as any server "phones home" to K.

WON'T HAPPEN, as the contract dispute is between K and DVD-CCA, not K's customers and DVD-CCA. Eliminating the functionality of existing customer servers does not do anything to return DVD-CCA to the position they were prior to the breach as there are better alternatives and the systems have already been sold with expectations to existing customers. It would also piss off a lot of wealthy, powerful people who watch a shiz load of movies. On jets and yachts.

2. DVD-CCA asks for relief in the form of forcing all future K servers sold require DVDs to be present in a disk vault just the same as Blu-Rays are now. This is not applied to past server sales as a software update for DVDs copied from that point forward for the same reason as #1 above. So essentially, the Vault becomes mandatory for everything except CDs in new sales...

LIKELY IF NO SETTLEMENT IS REACHED, because it is the reasonable legal remedy that the court can order and K can comply with that does not punish K beyond stopping the activity DVD-CCA has alleged infringes on their contract. K will potentially lose profit from customers who want to use the system without a vault to play DVDs, and those people don't really exist as new customers...

3. DVD-CCA asks for relief in addition to #2 above (unless their lawyers are idiots and go for this alone) in the form of monetary damages as compensation for the damages they sustained for their contract being breached. The term of the contract that they are fighting about is implemented by DVD-CCA to prevent piracy that will occur by customers either copying rental disks or reselling and continuing to enjoy DVD disks without the physical DVD that represents the "license" of the viewer to watch the movie. If the user does not possess the disk, they should not watch it, and K allows them to watch it without the disk.

NOT GOING TO HAPPEN, because DVD-CCA will have to show damages with reasonable certainty to the court. The DVD-CCA would have to show that K's customers are pirating disks, the amount of piracy, and the damages from that piracy with reasonable certainty. I just do not see it happening. K's average customer is too wealthy or too much of an enthusiast to pirate. And although K could actually provide- based on the information their own servers collect as they are all tied to their customers' K systems- an accurate and complete list of DVDs copied to their customer's systems, it would simply not be possible to show that those DVD disk copies represent an actual, tangible theft of intellectual property. I think this would be the ultimate "show down" between the 'rights-holder' and 'fair use' camps over this issue. What would the DVD-CCA do- claim they had "checked out the basements and garages" of a sample of K's customers and they couldn't find any DVD disks in boxes? This would force a judicial finding on whether the purchase of a DVD disk and subsequent copying by a consumer, even if facilitated by K, is still fair use. It's a loser argument- it simply cannot hold up. The DVD-CCA could not prove, with certainty, that piracy in any amount has actually occurred to subsequently calculate damages from. And it would, I believe, expand the legal rulings on what fair-use is to include decryption, in conflict with the DMCA. (I'm fuzzy on the details here, if anyone wants to clarify)

Here is what I think could actually pan out on this if the DVD-CCA removes their head from their ass, then gets an injunction forcing K to require Vaults to store copied DVDs, or agrees to settle first with that looming threat, and why K's continued appeals are so valuable to them of the ruling is so valuable to them:

The DVD-CCA uses the injunction or threat of injunction as a bargaining chip to license K's tech and the right to re-license it to consumer electronics manufacturers for DVD-only servers.

DVDs are a dying format. Blu-Rays are taking over, and as they do DVDs become less and less relevant. If you are an organization that solely exists to promote and license a media format, you have a limited time of relevancy because all physical media formats are eventually made obsolete. What is your ONLY business motivation? Maintain your product's relevancy in the market as long as possible! That is how everyone makes money. The studios do not care if BluRay takes over the market except for rebuys- in fact, they would probably PREFER to extend DVD sales as long as possible- costs are lower, licensing fees are lower to the people who hold rights to DVD technologies, (and not a 'bag of hurt' as Steve Jobs described Blu-Ray's to be) and they want to collect revenue as long as possible from something that is not controlled by Apple- or another company that has created a download ecosystem and therefore demands terms that are less profitable to the studios. Electronics manufacturers would love this, as the costs of DVD playing components have plummeted to the point that systems built to play DVD disks can be made extremely cheaply.

So why would the DVD-CCA not pursue a settlement that includes a licensing agreement for K's technology regarding DVDs? The K system is a closed system- you cannot copy from it. It is a system that can support the downloading of movies. By negotiating with K over licensing their IP for DVD systems the DVD-CCA and movie studios could profit from the seeding of systems that would support downloadable movies directly from the studios. By marketing to consumers that they can watch their existing DVDs with more convenience and without investing in new disks, they could get something in to the average consumer's living room that can bypass Apple, Netflix, whoever and sell HD movies as downloads as people are ready. AND K WOULD BENEFIT- What K does is their IP, whether they are allowed to do it is based on a licensing scheme controlled by the DVD-CCA. Licensing it to other manufacturers to produce DVD-only systems would not hurt or diminish K in the marketplace as K's customers are moving towards BluRay. K would stay at the top of the market as they own the IP that allows them to play BluRays from a server, and the BluRay consortium licenses them to play BluRays in any format.

K gets to profit from the licensing arrangement because other electronics manufacturers would love to jump in to the market K created and is now leaving in terms of the DVD market. K could also profit from the licensing of their metadata directly to the system manufacturers. I can imagine LG or Vizio being able to produce a client-server system that functionally does what K does with 90% of its polish and probably 90% of its reliability, but with 10% of its customer support (LGScapeOwners.com would take care of the majority of that) at a price Walmart and Costco shoppers would pay.

Sure, these systems won't be installed on any oil-billionaires' yachts, but they are enjoying Kaleidescape with BluRay so we do not have to worry about them. :)

DVD-CCA gets to continue the DVD revenue stream. Can you imagine how many people will stop caring immediately that they are not getting BluRay's "1080P picture and Dolby TrueHD Lossless audio cinema experience" in their living room, if they had the convenience of not switching disks and K's UI? Most people SIMPLY DO NOT KNOW THE DIFFERENCE. Once you no longer had to "Be Kind and Rewind," most people were pretty much placated with DVD's convenience. BluRay has had a huge marketing effort to get it to this point, and DVDs exist in everyone's house. I think that a purely Dvd-playing K clone system would sell, even in 2012, because of what K adds to the movie watching experience- convenience. Switching disks is the new "rewind."

With every system sold, licensing fees are collected from the manufacturers that are split between K, the DVD-CCa, and movie studios in whatever way they negotiate.

Movie studios would probably love it for the licensing revenue, as they have to be included in the negotiations as the DVD-CCA guarantees them certain protections against piracy by not allowing copying. If they leave out the vaults in K-like licensed systems, they would have to address that. And to continue DVDs in the market, they would have to leave the vaults out for cost and complexity reasons.

Movie studios would also love it because it would be another salvo against Apple and the iTunes / Apple TV ecosystem that is becoming more powerful each day. Apple's negotiating strength on the terms by which it licenses movies and media will continue to grow. A new market of K clones that play only DVDs would be beneficial to movie studios in fighting Apple simply because it represents the convenience Apple is marketing but is not Apple. And- if these systems could be upgraded to download movies from an online store it would bypass the iTunes ecosystem as well, sending movies directly to consumers. K could be involved, the DVD-CCA could be along for the ride collecting licensing fees... who knows- but no matter what it gives the Studios a new outlet to sell movies around Apple. And K's technology of a closed system and tamper-proof software would prevent piracy from downloaded movies.

Basically, I keep hearing everyone saying "Who cares, DVDs are a dying technology," and this includes myself. So if the DVD-CCA wants to profit from this conflict, they have to negotiate with K. And the longer K holds out, the less and less valuable DVD-CCA's asset becomes. They have a chance to really change the market through licensing arrangements and not continuing to fight, as what started out as a dispute over the DVD-CCA trying to defend something of value is starting to look more and more like the DVD-CCA is a dung beetle protecting a rabbit pellet.

I'll be employable to set this negotiation up in a couple months- K and DVD-CCA, feel free to pm me! :)

(Although I doubt I am treading on any new ground!)
 
You should do fine on the contract's section of your Bar. You should now concentrate on the other 18 areas likely to be tested (if Remedies shows up you should do fine on that section as well).:D



Jim
 
You should do fine on the contract's section of your Bar. You should now concentrate on the other 18 areas likely to be tested (if Remedies shows up you should do fine on that section as well).:D



Jim

Thanks.. it's those other 18 areas that are such a pita! :)
 
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