Hardware Needs...

[JerryL]

They have done so in my case.

 

[Mr.Poindexter]

No sense in waiting, I think. If somebody wants to upgrade to 3D, I doubt they are going to upgrade every TV in their house and likely would only need one 3D player. At that point, you get one new player and either move the old player to a spare room or trade it in or resell it. The server and vaults would be the same.

 

[Joelc]

Joel, your comment about 3D support is noted. K does an exceptionally good job (for better or worse) of not disclosing what's coming down the pipe until release.

This is not an issue with me as I deal with other companies that do the same thing noting that I am willing to deal with them provided they do the very thing that you note below; that is, take care of their existing customers...

That said my expectation is that at some point they would have 3D support. If so, your server/storage investment need not change. Your player(s) would simply need to be upgraded to new 3D player(s). And K also does an exceptionally good job of offering its users significant savings for upgrading.

I apologize in that I should have been clearer...The issue surrounding a possible player change/upgrade has me rethinking the strategy between i) MDV + M500 now or ii) wait for the IDV and consider the lay of the land...the rationale being that it may be cheaper/easier to upgrade separate players than one or more IDVs...

I should point out -- and will expand on this below -- that at present I have no interest in 3D for a number of reasons but would like to avoid spending numbers of thousands of dollars on equipment that has a short life cycle; that is, it is different if technology change so you [i.e. when 3D was introduced to all of us] versus expecting/knowing what is around the corner with timing being the only variable..

You might then be asking why I want a 3D enabled system despite the fact that I am not interested in 3D today...the answer is I may be interested in 3D down the road...read on...

Unfortunately technology changes. We can either jump in and begin to enjoy or ride the pine in wait. Whichever you decide is fine. Just know that K takes very good care of their customers. I'm sure any member of this forum will echo that.

Kelly

I am in complete agreement...

I will be installing a brand new bulb based Runco 3-chip DLP projector in my home theatre because to me i) the image quality continues to exceed that of LED [particularly given my 22+ foot throw distance] and ii) none of the 3D projectors that I have seen are sufficiently bright for 3D viewing and iii) the glasses are a deal breaker for me...

The point being that I am purposely passing on the supposed latest and greatest HT craze -- that being 3D -- because in its current form it is NOT compelling to me and I do *NOT* want to sit on the sidelines until int becomes compelling as this maybe 3+ years away...so I hear 'ya!

With that, I would like to be as prepared as possible should that day come [and I do hope that this thread has clearly explained my thinking]...

+++++++++++++

To summarize I will be installing a K system it is more a matter of determining the best approach...


Joel


PS. Two thing that I wish the industry would move towards are i) programmable chips a la Lumagen which managed to make there VPs HDMI 1.4 compliant even though they were sold as HDMI 1.2 for the XD and HDMI 1.3 for the XE and ii) scrap HDMI in place of cat-5e/6...just my ranting...

 

[Joelc]

No sense in waiting, I think. If somebody wants to upgrade to 3D, I doubt they are going to upgrade every TV in their house and likely would only need one 3D player. At that point, you get one new player and either move the old player to a spare room or trade it in or resell it. The server and vaults would be the same.

Mike:

Excellent point as I had overlooked that...


Joel

 

[JerryL]

Joel, those desires would be nice!

My personal take is your approach of avoiding the IDV in terms of being able to upgrade the player portion easier makes sense.

My take on 3D is it might be selling in decent units but until they can make displays that do not require glasses it will not be truly mainstream- they might even sell a lot of displays since they seem to be making it fairly inexpensive for consumers to choose a 3D display. But I wonder how many people are actually using the 3D aside from a little demo here and there. My friends who have 3D displays rarely use the 3D feature. To summarize their views: its too annoying with the glasses.

Projectors: have you seen the Digital Projection Titan projector? I have not but I have heard its fantastic.

 

[Joelc]

Joel, those desires would be nice!

No kidding as doing so would make life a whole lot easier for both manufacturer's and end users...I do wonder what impact it would have on profitability as a different pricing paradigm could likely possibly be used which would be revenue neutral...one example would be similar to that used by Lumagen and TMA that should you want to upgrade from 1.3 to 1.4 then send us the money and we will send you the unlock code...

Truly am baffled as to why this is NOT done...

My personal take is your approach of avoiding the IDV in terms of being able to upgrade the player portion easier makes sense.

To a point....to the extent that upgrading the IDV means having to reload all of the disks this is yet another negative for not holding out for the IDV...that said, I am back to my original concern of where to hand/install multiple MDVs as I would like to have them all in one rack...

While on that topic I did have an idea...the MA racks that I have are 25.75" inches deep...I wonder whether it would be possible to mount a shelf backwards within the "extra deep" racks...hmmm, will have to give MA a call...

My take on 3D is it might be selling in decent units but until they can make displays that do not require glasses it will not be truly mainstream- they might even sell a lot of displays since they seem to be making it fairly inexpensive for consumers to choose a 3D display.

I could not agree more as the need for glasses is my personal main deterrent...

But I wonder how many people are actually using the 3D aside from a little demo here and there. My friends who have 3D displays rarely use the 3D feature. To summarize their views: its too annoying with the glasses.

Projectors: have you seen the Digital Projection Titan projector? I have not but I have heard its fantastic.

I have heard [it is extremely loud] and seen the Titan projector...I stand corrected and should amend my previous post by noting that I am not prepared the money for that this projector commands and, even were I, it still needs glasses and it would need a sound proofed equipment room as it is very load...

I think that Mike played with the idea of getting one in his home theatre but eventually backed off -- at least I think that this is what I read over at AVS in his build thread -- but may be mistaken...perhaps he can/will chime in and "fill in the blanks" so to speak...


Thanks for all the input...


Joel

 

[JerryL]

Some thoughts:

Why do you need everything in one rack? I understand why it might be preferable but what do you do about each location's cable or sat box and other "black boxes"?

I would have preferred to daisy chain several vaults together in my equipment room but thats not possible so I realized- hey in my family room we have a huge area in the cabinet under the TV thats not being used for anything except some old manuals and cables- I cleaned that out and now I have enough room for probably 4 vaults if I wanted to stack them- but easily 1 vault that I will connect to to the M300 thats currently residing there. Ill simply tell the wife and kids to not touch the black box thats sitting there- and they actually listen. I might even turn the vault around once its loaded up so they can't see the buttons- thus reducing the temptation.

I realized I have other rooms that have similar capability to host a MDV. Its not my ideal- it actually took me a few minutes to realize this would be fine- it shows my rigidity in thinking I suppose- but once I realized it, I realized its really not a big deal.

I know you said you really just want the one zone for now. How many BRs are you likely to store? You could make do with the 1 MDV for now and then see what you want to do. You could add a second MDV in your rack and link it to a M300 with no display. This would add to the cost but it would work.

Are you not running the PJ in its own space? I thought you were?

One thing you might want to do if the PJ is in your viewing area is invest in a hush box and a thermal solution.

 

[Mr.Poindexter]

I think that Mike played with the idea of getting one in his home theatre but eventually backed off -- at least I think that this is what I read over at AVS in his build thread -- but may be mistaken...perhaps he can/will chime in and "fill in the blanks" so to speak...

I did look into the Titan projector, but I backed off. There were several reasons that all combined to be a dealbreaker.

1. Limited funds and other things to look into upgrading. I actually upgraded to the 3U server and M-series player for my Kaleidescape and also upgraded to a new Lumagen Radiance scaler for the theater and also one for my mobile rack.

2. Glasses for the Titan would not be compatible with the TV I was looking at for the kids game room. I ended up scrapping the 3D set for the game room as well and just got them a 2D flat panel. Considering I would need 9 pairs of adult glasses for the theater plus perhaps 6-8 pairs for kids as well, that seemed a large cost for things that wouldn't work with other displays.

3. Cost for the 3D head-end equipment was quite expensive. I think it was an extra $40k retail for the 3D server for the titan.

4. There is not a single 3-D movie that really interests me personally. Not to bash on people's tastes, but I didn't even buy Avatar at all. I saw it in the theater and figured that I already own Pocahontas, Dances with Wolves and Fern Gulley, all three of which are basically the same thing. On top of that and not to delve too far into politics, I have a real problem with these kinds of pastorals because I have a lot of ties to agriculture and I can easily see how pastoral depictions of life get urban people to not understand what nature really is like and they simply outvote those who are knowlegeable and I feel it is moving our country to a path different than the one that put us in first place in the world. But I digress...

Granted, the animated shows are top notch and there are a lot of good titles there, like Toy Story 3, but they are not the types of films that made me want to build a home theater in the first place. Further, 3D conversions are not impressive so far as I have seen and so this is technology with a promise of content going forward but little available now.

The biggest draw I saw for 3D was ESPN 3D. It still is the biggest reason I would be interested in 3D.

Finally, I have spent a lot of time with a Mercury 5000 HD, which is nice but doesn't have a great black level - my primary concern. I don't want to have that same issue going forward and while the Titan 3D projector has a much better black level than I have now, I want to have something that is either the reference for black level, or close to it.

 

[JerryL]

I agree with you Mike on #4 but I still enjoy Avatar. But to each his own on that one.

Funny, ESPN 3D does nothing for me. Probably because Ive not seen it. I find ESPN in general to be annoying and grating on my intelligence as a sports fan. I used to watch it all the time, but they have somehow done something to sports that I just can't put my finger on- I wouldn't say they've cheapened it, but somehow they've made it just too much, I donno, maybe its over processed. That said I still have ESPN in my favorite channel rotation because they have a lot of content I like. The best thing they did, they backed away from under pressure from the NFL: Playmakers. That show had promise (at least IMHO).

 

[Mr.Poindexter]

The first 3D I ever saw that made me want it was NBA in 3D and I am not much of a basketball fan but wow, it really took my breath away. It was front projection, passive 3D and about a 120" or larger screen.

 

[Joelc]

Some thoughts:

Why do you need everything in one rack? I understand why it might be preferable but what do you do about each location's cable or sat box and other "black boxes"?

Apologies to all as I should have been clearer...I do not need everything in 1 rack but rather would *STRONGLY PREFER* to have everything in the 1 equipment room that I have which contains 2 44U racks with some, but not a lot [i.e. certainly enough for a 3U server, a 1U player and an MDV], free space...

The reason that I would *prefer* not to place them in other locations throughout the house despite the fact that there locations, as you note, have blu-ray player, hd cables, boxes, SONOS units, etc. as there location is that with 2+ teenagers in the house the DVDs/Blu-rays have a tendency to walk off...this will not change with the instillation of a K system as the DVDs/Blu-rays in my house prefer the food at other people's house and seem to move to and live there permanently...and, yes, they do this on their own as no one in my house has any knowledge or recollection of how they got there...

Thus the point is why install a $20, to $25,000+ system to not have the media on hand to play...

I would have preferred to daisy chain several vaults together in my equipment room but thats not possible so I realized- hey in my family room we have a huge area in the cabinet under the TV thats not being used for anything except some old manuals and cables- I cleaned that out and now I have enough room for probably 4 vaults if I wanted to stack them- but easily 1 vault that I will connect to to the M300 thats currently residing there. Ill simply tell the wife and kids to not touch the black box thats sitting there- and they actually listen. I might even turn the vault around once its loaded up so they can't see the buttons- thus reducing the temptation.

I do not have the physical space to place the MDV in the family room [1 or 2 can be located there], in the master bedroom [4+ can be located there] and perhaps even in the home theatre itself but the teenagers in my house need to come to your house for a visit because they sure do not listen nearly as well...when can they arrive?

I would agree that the ability to daisy chain MDVs would be fantastic...

I realized I have other rooms that have similar capability to host a MDV. Its not my ideal- it actually took me a few minutes to realize this would be fine- it shows my rigidity in thinking I suppose- but once I realized it, I realized its really not a big deal.

I know you said you really just want the one zone for now. How many BRs are you likely to store? You could make do with the 1 MDV for now and then see what you want to do. You could add a second MDV in your rack and link it to a M300 with no display. This would add to the cost but it would work.

Agreed....I am working on the possible layouts over the next day or two...that said, I am essentially where you are in terms of i) what would be ideal versus ii) what is possible with the only difference being that my DVDs/Blu-Rays are more independent...

Are you not running the PJ in its own space? I thought you were?

One thing you might want to do if the PJ is in your viewing area is invest in a hush box and a thermal solution.

The projector is in the equipment room and can not be heard as the equipment is very well sound proofed but, trust me, the Titan is very loud...the Titan's spec sheet does not provide the noise level...

 

[JerryL]

The first 3D I ever saw that made me want it was NBA in 3D and I am not much of a basketball fan but wow, it really took my breath away. It was front projection, passive 3D and about a 120" or larger screen.

uh oh Im not afraid to see it because Im not a huge basketball fan but I do enjoy a good game, and if this was your reaction then.... I better keep meself away from this sort of setup!

 

[JerryL]

Joel- two words:
[begin Al Gore voice]
LOCK BOX
[/end Al Gore voice]



Im guessing the teens won't accept the explanation that removing discs will cause damage to the system?

You can run a really long USB cable I believe, do you have a high shelf?

Thanks for the info on the Titan- if I ever go that route I might have to do more sound proofing. But Im not going that route- not for a while anyway.

 

[JerryL]

The first 3D I ever saw that made me want it was NBA in 3D and I am not much of a basketball fan but wow, it really took my breath away. It was front projection, passive 3D and about a 120" or larger screen.

uh oh Im not afraid to see it because Im not a huge basketball fan but I do enjoy a good game, and if this was your reaction then.... I better keep meself away from this sort of setup!

 

[Joelc]

Joel- two words:
[begin Al Gore voice]
LOCK BOX
[/end Al Gore voice]

I hate to admit this but we were so concerned about the very real possible "lack of respect" (read trashing) of the home theatre one needs and access code to enter the theatre and guess what, the kids do not have ut...it pains me but such is life...

Im guessing the teens won't accept the explanation that removing discs will cause damage to the system?

Teens are proving to be a challenge and, no, that will not work...let me give you an example, despite being warned not to balance their drinks and their laptop on the couch they continued to do so and the inevitable/predictable happened and they spilled juice all over the laptop....one hour later they asked me when I was going to fix it...would you believe that it is still not fixed and they still do not get that this will be their cost and their responsibility...

What little hair I have left is leaving me as a result of the teenage years...

You can run a really long USB cable I believe, do you have a high shelf?

I am a mere 5' 7"....the boys are both pushing 6' and the girl will be taller than me in a year...so, what shelf are you referring too other than the one that they can reach and I can not...


And, for all those that do not know me well, while all of what I say is true please understand that I am responding in a joking manner and that while the problem of walking Blu-rays is real it is not, of course, that bad or the end of the world...

Thanks for the info on the Titan- if I ever go that route I might have to do more sound proofing. But Im not going that route- not for a while anyway.

No problem...by the way, I will e-mail you the final pictures of my theatre near month end once the photographer has taken them and sent them back to me...

 

[Mr.Poindexter]

You can run a really long USB cable I believe, do you have a high shelf?

I am a mere 5' 7"....the boys are both pushing 6' and the girl will be taller than me in a year...so, what shelf are you referring too other than the one that they can reach and I can not...

Have you thought about putting them on a low shelf?

 

[Transepoch]

While on that topic I did have an idea...the MA racks that I have are 25.75" inches deep...I wonder whether it would be possible to mount a shelf backwards within the "extra deep" racks...hmmm, will have to give MA a call...

Even if you get shelves deep enough for a pair, the IDV will still hold more, so it is a more efficient use of the 5U. Unless/until they no longer need a workaround solution for BRs, I'd rather just get an updated player should anything that wizzbang-enough come along and keep using the vault as a vault.

 

[JerryL]

Im truly sorry to hear of your troubles Joel. I hope they are merely a temporary growing pains phase.

In all seriousness I mean a shelf high enough that it would be reachable by ladder but not convenient to take discs from.

I would very much like to see the pictures. Until then, happy new year.

 

[Joelc]

Even if you get shelves deep enough for a pair, the IDV will still hold more, so it is a more efficient use of the 5U. Unless/until they no longer need a workaround solution for BRs, I'd rather just get an updated player should anything that wizzbang-enough come along and keep using the vault as a vault.

Apologies but I must I am having trouble shaking the cobwebs this morning...

The first part of your post, at leas as I read it, suggests that I would be better off waiting for the IDV because it alone will hold more BRs than a pair of MDVs...

The second part of your post suggests using multiple vaults so that the player and vault can be "separately upgraded"...

What am I missing?

Thanks,


Joel

 

[Joelc]

Im truly sorry to hear of your troubles Joel. I hope they are merely a temporary growing pains phase.

Not only do I hope so as well but I also hope that neither you nor anyone else goes through the challenges that we are going through with the two boys...it is not only exhausting but also frustrating as it is damn near impossible making a 17 or 18 year old do something that they do not want to do...

Well, enough of that, let's get back to the "good stuff"....

In all seriousness I mean a shelf high enough that it would be reachable by ladder but not convenient to take discs from.

I might have solved my IDV/MDV location problem without using any rack space other than for the first one or two IDVs/MDVs...

I might have room on the top of the MA racks...

Without going into all the wherefores and whys I installed one ATM Cool-Stack II cooling unit [see http://www.activethermal.com/Cool-StackII.htm ] in each of my racks with the units venting through the top of my racks...this means that there may be room on the top of my racks to place 1 to 4 IDV/MDV units...the only caveat which needs to be checked is the usability of the space because I need to see how neatly the power cables, etc. that "come into"/feed the rack are coiled on top...

I would very much like to see the pictures. Until then, happy new year.

And so you shall...

And, to everyone here, I hope that 2011 is a year filled with fantastic memories, good health and prosperity...