rafaelsmith
Well-known member
Yeah, its bad. We really need some answers as to what their DNR approach is and why so excessive. Something doesn't add up.
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[Buyer’s Guide] Kaleidescape Quality Compared to Blu-ray & other Digital Sources
- Thread starter Rmarci
- Start date
It’s a simple answer…. Incompetence! Rmarci gave them a treasure map… and even marked the treasure with an “X” on the map. It’s incompetence.. when they do a re encode they still screw it up.
rafaelsmith
Well-known member
That is not really the question I was asking. I do not really care about identifying titles and then them fixing them...I want to know what their approach/philosophy is on DNR is the first place. More specifically, why is DNR even needed?
It’s just the opening shot that has this strong DNR, so I assume there was something in the master they wanted to remove.
I’ll have to check my UHD Blu-ray to see if I can spot anything.
For example, in IT (2017), the UHD Blu-ray has with some weird noise (black dots) that last for a few frames at 1:10:00. KS used strong DNR to remove the noise but also stripped away all the detail from the shots, then added a heavy fake grain overlay. Personally, I much prefer the UHD Blu-ray without any DNR at all, even with its defects.
They did something similar in Independence Day too.
slow.pics
I think KS should stop trying to fix or alter their masters, no matter how they are. They clearly aren’t competent enough to handle those kinds of fixes.
I’ll have to check my UHD Blu-ray to see if I can spot anything.
For example, in IT (2017), the UHD Blu-ray has with some weird noise (black dots) that last for a few frames at 1:10:00. KS used strong DNR to remove the noise but also stripped away all the detail from the shots, then added a heavy fake grain overlay. Personally, I much prefer the UHD Blu-ray without any DNR at all, even with its defects.
They did something similar in Independence Day too.
Independence.Day.1996 kscape vs uhd-bd | Slowpoke Pics
Slowpoke Pics image comparison service
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I think KS should stop trying to fix or alter their masters, no matter how they are. They clearly aren’t competent enough to handle those kinds of fixes.
They don’t know. That’s my point.
rafaelsmith
Well-known member
I agree. Brings me back to the fact that my assumption was that a K encode should be the least compromised/altered from source material of all...including disc and streaming due to no limitation of bandwidth, bitrate or storage space.
Trevor
Well-known member
^Agreed^
I just want the mezzanine file without any alterations besides the transcode to K's target average bitrate. Am I missing something? I know an encoder can allow more/less variability in the bitrate but there has to be goldilocks setting that's near visually imperceptible with 95% of content. It's not like they're targeting 40-45 mbps without a noticeable loss in quality - 65-72 is pretty decent and should be easier to work with. They chose that bitrate for a reason.
Outside of that why do they feel the need to tinker? I mean if the mez looks poor then it's baked in...K (and we) can point our finger at the studio and move on...instead they introduce additional issues & variability to a system that should be consistent and faithful to the source file.
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rafaelsmith
Well-known member
Yes, If a movie looks/sounds like crap...I would rather be confident that it is the studios fault and not K's.
Still want to know what the technical reasons are for going thru all these "alterations" given the lack of limitations K technically should have.
I'm worried they want people to see a difference. It seems it's relatively trivial not to introduce these things, it seems intentional.
rafaelsmith
Well-known member
I truely hope that is not the reason. Its ljke showrooms putting TVs on Vivid.
Kingsman: The Golden Circle 2017 (UPDATE)
- Looks like only the HDR10 metadata changed.
- Checked another source for this movie (Vudu), and it confirms Kscape colors are correct. The UHD-BD is most likely incorrect here, which makes sense since it looks like crap.
- Overcropped (because of player OS)
www.kaleidescape.com
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Heat 1995:
*** Compared to 3 different sources...
slow.pics
- Green push
- Desaturated colors
- Different brightness
- Different grain structure than other sources: most likely, their usual DNR + fake grain overlay. In many shots, MA has more grain than the uhd-bd and you can see how it truly looks like natural 35mm source grain and not fake 65mm grain like on KS.
www.kaleidescape.com
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The Best Christmas Pageant Ever 2024:
VIDEO:
slow.pics
AUDIO:
www.kaleidescape.com
- Looks like only the HDR10 metadata changed.
- Checked another source for this movie (Vudu), and it confirms Kscape colors are correct. The UHD-BD is most likely incorrect here, which makes sense since it looks like crap.
- Overcropped (because of player OS)
Kingsman: The Golden Circle
When a drug baroness destroys the Kingsman's base, Eggsy and Merlin turn to their American allies to help take her down. Directed by Matthew Vaughn. Starring Taron Egerton, Colin Firth, Julianne Moore, and Mark Strong. Purchase and download today in 4K HDR10 with Dolby Atmos audio.
www.kaleidescape.com
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Heat 1995:
*** Compared to 3 different sources...
Heat 1995 KSCAPE vs iTunes vs Movies Anywhere | Slowpoke Pics
Slowpoke Pics image comparison service
slow.pics
- Green push
- Desaturated colors
- Different brightness
- Different grain structure than other sources: most likely, their usual DNR + fake grain overlay. In many shots, MA has more grain than the uhd-bd and you can see how it truly looks like natural 35mm source grain and not fake 65mm grain like on KS.
Heat
A withdrawn career criminal plans one final job as a lonesome detective obsesses over his capture. Thriller, Crime, Action, Drama. Directed by Michael Mann. Starring Al Pacino, Robert De Niro, Val Kilmer, and Tom Sizemore. Purchase and download today in 4K HDR10.
www.kaleidescape.com
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The Best Christmas Pageant Ever 2024:
VIDEO:
The Best Christmas Pageant Ever 2024 KSCAPE vs iTunes | Slowpoke Pics
Slowpoke Pics image comparison service
slow.pics
AUDIO:
The Best Christmas Pageant Ever
A determined mother takes over the local Christmas pageant and wrangles the notoriously unruly children in the cast. Comedy, Holiday. Directed by Dallas Jenkins. Starring Judy Greer, Pete Holmes, Molly Belle Wright, and Lauren Graham. Purchase and download today in 4K Dolby Vision.
www.kaleidescape.com
I wasn't sure what thread this question would be best asked, but here it is. Has anyone else seen such a large difference between the download size of the HDR10 version compared to the DV version? The SDR version is closer to the size of the DV version. What gives?
I don’t know if KS uses two-pass bitrate encoding (encoding houses usually do), but if they do, I’m not sure why they chose such a low bitrate for HDR10. With bitrate-based encoding, you can directly control the final file size (bitrate), which is especially practical when you’re targeting a specific size: BD-66, BD-100, low-bitrate streaming, or KS’s high-bitrate. The downside is that quality can vary, and bits can end up being wasted.
If they’re using CRF (quality-based) encoding instead, then the bitrate difference (and file size) can depend on many factors: the encoder, settings, color space, and so on but the quality is always the same no matter what. From my experience with the Dolby Encoding Engine, at the same CRF value and settings, DEE with its proprietary color space (ICTCP) requires more bitrate to achieve the same quality as HDR10 encoded with x265.exe (though they probably don’t use x265.exe). SDR also typically needs more bitrate than HDR10, since HDR10 is generally more compressible than SDR.
Based on what I’ve compared so far, DV and SDR are usually encoded slightly better than their HDR10 counterparts.
If they’re using CRF (quality-based) encoding instead, then the bitrate difference (and file size) can depend on many factors: the encoder, settings, color space, and so on but the quality is always the same no matter what. From my experience with the Dolby Encoding Engine, at the same CRF value and settings, DEE with its proprietary color space (ICTCP) requires more bitrate to achieve the same quality as HDR10 encoded with x265.exe (though they probably don’t use x265.exe). SDR also typically needs more bitrate than HDR10, since HDR10 is generally more compressible than SDR.
Based on what I’ve compared so far, DV and SDR are usually encoded slightly better than their HDR10 counterparts.
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No, I’m no longer buying old movies that have a Blu-ray release until they fix the blocking artifacts.
I still have a few to check that I bought a while ago:
Transformer Dark side of the moon
Hidden Figures
Red 2
Dawn of the planet apes
war for the planet apes
I still have a few to check that I bought a while ago:
Transformer Dark side of the moon
Hidden Figures
Red 2
Dawn of the planet apes
war for the planet apes
I'd appreciate if they could provide us more frequently updates on the progress of their investigation, to help build trust that they're taking it seriously. I likewise am holding off on purchases I would otherwise proceed with.
I can confirm that the highlight artifact issue has not been fixed in their latest encode of The Fantastic Four: First Steps (2025). Some shots also show fewer fine details than on low bitrate iTunes or Amazon, likely due to DNR or poor encoding settings. There’s also a slight color shift.
slow.pics
The Fantastic Four First Steps 2025 KSCAPE vs iTunes vs Amazon | Slowpoke Pics
Slowpoke Pics image comparison service
slow.pics
rafaelsmith
Well-known member
Boo, I have been avoiding buying movies until we get some sorta difinitive answer from K on how these issues will be handled going forward.......BUT Wife demanded we watch Fantastic Four this week...oh well.I can confirm that the highlight artifact issue has not been fixed in their latest encode of The Fantastic Four: First Steps (2025). Some shots also show fewer fine details than on low bitrate iTunes or Amazon, likely due to DNR or poor encoding settings. There’s also a slight color shift.
The Fantastic Four First Steps 2025 KSCAPE vs iTunes vs Amazon | Slowpoke Pics
Slowpoke Pics image comparison service
macfan2k24
Active member
I was surprised to see the preorder price for this was cheaper on K than iTunes so I took the bait. Guess that’s what I get for being cheap…
rafaelsmith
Well-known member
At least the reports on avsforum about the ATMOS track for this are good...
Atmos Mixes - 9.1.6 Channel Activity
The purpose of this thread is to show the 9.1.6 channel activity for different Atmos mixes. Do they use front wides? Do they use all 6 tops? Let's see... This is really just going to show activity, and so it's not necessarily an indicator of whether a mix is actually good or bad, and there...
www.avsforum.com