[Buyer’s Guide] Kaleidescape Quality Compared to Blu-ray & other Digital Sources

[cinelife]

What defective players are you describing? I might have missed something.

I'm curious as well.....

I own them all, and multiple of some models, bias aside I've not encountered any problems with any of our Strato (M, E, V, C) players. Among the hundreds of owner/clients we support, I only know of two that encountered a Strato problem over the past several years. One was an Ethernet issue, and the other a drive problem, both of which were resolved quickly with an in warranty new replacement.

Jim

 

[Nathan28]

I'm curious as well.....

I own them all, and multiple of some models, bias aside I've not encountered any problems with any of our Strato (M, E, V, C) players. Among the hundreds of owner/clients we support, I only know of two that encountered a Strato problem over the past several years. One was an Ethernet issue, and the other a drive problem, both of which were resolved quickly with an in warranty new replacement.

Jim

Have you not been following this thread?
Strato V’s upscaler never being turned off, which is introducing artifacts in all of the movies, the cropping issue, grain being added, DNR being added, wrong colors (red push, green push) etc and being told it will be fixed potentially on the next update… sometime in spring some issues have been determined by K to be their encodes while they acknowledged players being the problem with the cropping and artifacts…so we have defective players awaiting an update to hopefully fix the issues. Simply look at past pages in this thread… it’s detailed.

 

[dinom]

So bugs in the firmware, not actual hardware issues? The term you use “defective players” makes it seems like you are talking about hardware failures, which doesn’t sound like what you are referring to.

 

[Nathan28]

So bugs in the firmware, not actual hardware issues? The term you use “defective players” makes it seems like you are talking about hardware failures, which doesn’t sound like what you are referring to.

No hardware failures. My K works flawless but with the described issues in the thread. Will they fix it? Is it a simple firmware fix? I do hope so… the wait time just sucks

 

[111-JEDI]

Timeline is long. I think the entire company has less than 90 people, so the niche market and related prioritization generally makes sense. Just one dude's perspective. All of my Kaleidescape gear works great. My hope is Kaleidescape continues to push the envelope ever toward perfection and I expect that journey to be non-linear.

 

[Rmarci]

I’d call it defective as well, regardless of whether the issue comes from the firmware. With the exact same source file, the $50 Fire TV Stick outputs better quality than the $3000 Kscape.

We’ll see once I get the new firmware. I’ll redo all the comparisons I’ve done so far, and even more.

 

[dinom]

Question is are these artifacts visible from normal viewing distances? I certainly think the picture quality looks great, even on a 120” scope screen.

 

[tov5005]

In all likelihood, no Kaleidescape owners would have noticed had OP not done this granular analysis. That should give you a sense of the significance (or arguable insignificance) of the issues identified to the average viewer. In fact, in OP's spreadsheet, over 62% of the comparisons are in favor of Kaleidescape or tied. I know most would argue that number should be 100% Kaleidescape due to the added cost of this platform, and I do agree, even with ignoring all the other added benefits of Kaleidescape in general.. But Kaleidescape has acknowledged, and planned, a fix for all. Because of the nature of this delivery platform we have the added benefit of receiving fixes and new encodes down the road. If you buy a disc and the encode is sub-par, as it has been in many cases per OP’s spreadsheet, you’re out of luck..

Also, IMO, comparison to other streaming platforms in a ‘buyer’s guide’ is kind of moot. I would hope nobody is sacrificing the superior audio of Kaleidescape and choosing to purchase from another platform for slightly better video quality in some cases, unless that is truly all you care about. The only accurate comparison is to UHD BD.

Certainly appreciative of OP spending the time on this analysis and providing the feedback to Kaleidescape as we will all benefit in the long run.

 

[Rmarci]

That should give you a sense of the significance (or arguable insignificance) of the issues identified to the average viewer.

Who cares what the average user sees or doesn’t see? This thread isn’t for the average user, but for those who want their crazy expensive player and encoding quality that isn’t subpar.

Also, IMO, comparison to other streaming platforms in a ‘buyer’s guide’ is kind of moot.

Not when we’re looking at color accuracy, which is a major issue with Kscape. I’ve checked around only 130 movies, and almost half of them have color issues.

Anyway, anyone who comes here just to downplay the issues and defend them, please don’t. It doesn’t matter if you personally don’t see the issues or think they’re minor. Why even bother reading this thread anyway if you think that... smh

 

[tov5005]

I find the findings in this thread interesting, that’s why I read it. Apologies if I touched a nerve, but this is a forum not your personal blog. Others can share opinions as they wish. Many users are seeing this thread and thinking there are significant issues with their K equipment and I don’t believe that to be the case. That doesn’t mean there aren’t issues that should be addressed. As I said, I also appreciate the level on analysis you are doing. All will benefit, whether they can perceive it or not..

 

[Rmarci]

Well, this isn’t a thread about subjective opinions. Any post that isn’t objective or a legitimate question about what I’ve posted is off-topic here. So I don’t know… Start your own thread about people's opinion on KScape quality...

 

[cinelife]

Have you not been following this thread?
Strato V’s upscaler never being turned off, which is introducing artifacts in all of the movies, the cropping issue, grain being added, DNR being added, wrong colors (red push, green push) etc and being told it will be fixed potentially on the next update… sometime in spring some issues have been determined by K to be their encodes while they acknowledged players being the problem with the cropping and artifacts…so we have defective players awaiting an update to hopefully fix the issues. Simply look at past pages in this thread… it’s detailed.

No, this thread has no importance for me personally, so I just scan the posts to insure people are being civil to each other. I happened to see your comment about "defective players" which prompted my comment. I don't have a single client that considers their player(s) to be defective, nor do I for the dozen or so players I own, which is why I asked. That said, those folks that choose to look for issues within the movies they watch certainly have the right to do that, and to comment about what they are seeing. I understand the psychology behind those comments. We just have a difference of opinion regarding the term "defective." Personally, I'll continue to enjoy my systems as is, and let others do battle over the issues that are important to them.

Jim

 

[cinelife]

To be clear, I have no problem with Rmarci's posts, he has the right to evaluate content the way he does, and to post his findings. If others find his posts relevant, or helpful, thay's fine, that's why forums exist.

Jim

 

[thrillcat]

What defective players are you describing? I might have missed something.

You didn’t miss anything. They’re not defective. They need a firmware update. That’s all.

 

[gadgetman]

Although I have not been able to detect visually many of the issues presented by @Rmarci as I enjoy the Kaleidescape experience on my Sony Bravia 9, A95L and X95L, I value nonetheless all the work that he has done: As a life-long learner, I will become more critical as I watch movies in the hope of truly appreciating the director's intent. And, the work done by @Rmarci has already contributed to improvements in Kaleidescape's processes and a just-released firmware update, as well as a future update that will come next year. It has been noted that the visual quality of many movies has already improved, which is a testament to his work and Kaleidescape's efforts to bring us the best possible experience.

 

[MartR]

Well to be honest i’ve was the first to tell Rmarcie to leave it alone and that is was all great… but since i bought myself a Zappiti CineMike and have a Oppo and i’ve also compared uhd 1:1 discs to K and we can talk for hours and hours but he’s right. Yes he is…
Look, i dont see the macro blocking or the red push but the cropping , ratio’s from 2.39 to 2.40 , K putting out a darker picture with less lightoutput , less sharp and after all of that adding grain in compare to the disc is a fact. Not only been noticed by him , me but i know others and this is not good for a premium product.
Not if you say your the best on the market.
You can talk for hours but if you will do your own comparisons on multi movies you will see the same.
When i talk for myself i wait with a Terra purchase before this is al fixed.
K has to be better then this.

Also to mention… the audio is insanly good on K, thats is superb so kudos to them for the sound quality.

 

[rafaelsmith]

Also, IMO, comparison to other streaming platforms in a ‘buyer’s guide’ is kind of moot. I would hope nobody is sacrificing the superior audio of Kaleidescape and choosing to purchase from another platform for slightly better video quality in some cases, unless that is truly all you care about. The only accurate comparison is to UHD BD.

I disagree. I think comparing to other digital platforms is important. In all honesty PQ between the best of streaming and K is a wash most of the time. K has the advantage in audio but knowing how the audio containers used by streaming work....they could easily increase the quality...they just currently have no incentive to do so....but if they did...then IMO K would be in serious trouble.

 

[111-JEDI]

My hope is that we will continue to compare and hold the excellence bar as high as technically possible - let's shoot for perfection and ever toward that continuing horizon of what is possible. And, I'm personally encouraged by the good analysis and objective measures that rmarci and others bring to the table here - pointing out ways video can be better. Also, I believe Kaleidescape to me to be the best solution out there currently. And, I have seen Kaleidescape over the years continue to improve.

Audiophile and videophile reference level components and software will be in demand, and we who want the world's very best will continue to need to be willing to pay the high prices. dCS, Wilson Audio, Linn, Stromtank, Sony Bravia OLED, Audio Research, D'Agostino, Magico, McIntosh, Barco, Christie, Shunyata, Nordost, Transparent, etc, all have figured out the price-to-performance ratios that work for the business to clear margins that keep the lights on and R&D beakers swirling in the labs. Kaleidescape is figuring out similar dynamics. There is a difference between a device that performs as designed and a device that doesn't. The latter is defective. In this case, the Kaleidescape devices perform well and as designed, and firmware is continuously being updated and the company is listening and modifying designs of firmware and making improvements to movies based on feedback. And, from time to time some or all of us might want that gap between perfection and current design or performance to be smaller or faster. Anyway - let's all keep the great debates going in these good collaborative ways. Let's keep pushing for perfection - with acknowledgement that it's a bumpy road. Thanks for all the great input on this thread.

 

[Rmarci]

mmmm The over-cropping that was supposed to be fixed in the latest firmware update is not fixed at all. The player(or their encoding) still over-crops everything to 2.40... What the hell???



Example, The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring 2001
UHD-BD top = 275 / Bottom = 276 (2.38)
Kscape Top = 280 / Bottom = 280 (2.40)

kscape vs uhd-bd | Slowpoke Pics

Slowpoke Pics image comparison service

slow.pics

- over-cropped
- Slightly lower quality. UHD-BD has better grain retention and better fine details

 

[KDeering]

mmmm The over-cropping that was supposed to be fixed in the latest firmware update is not fixed at all. The player(or their encoding) still over-crops everything to 2.40... What the hell???

View attachment 9110

Example, The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring 2001
UHD-BD top = 275 / Bottom = 276 (2.38)
Kscape Top = 280 / Bottom = 280 (2.40)

kscape vs uhd-bd | Slowpoke Pics

Slowpoke Pics image comparison service

slow.pics

- over-cropped
- Slightly lower quality. UHD-BD has better grain retention and better fine details


View attachment 9111

View attachment 9112

It wasn't fixed in this firmware. Remember he said it would be a two part fix but that would mean something with raised blacks and I said that would cause problems with video processors so he said they would likely just wait and do it the right way but that would be spring.