Apple TV 4K Discussion Thread

[Kurvenal]

Wi-Fi 6 speeds are theoretical and unlikely to be achieved in real world. This is especially true if your access point is fighting your adjacent access points for bandwidth channels. Furthermore, RF theory in GigaHertz doesn’t favor longer distances over 20ft and obstacles like walls and doors. It would be very difficult to support claims like 10 simultaneous 4K playback over Wi-Fi.


HDMI isn’t the most ideal for audiophile grade audio. There are lower jitter SPDIF transmitters in digital coax.

One potential advantage of HDMI is the ability to play music in Atmos. Am I right that this is not possible with digital coax?

Having said that, if the only option for playing music in Atmos is through the Music app on an ATV, then without Dolby TrueHD or bitstream passthrough I don’t think lossless playback is possible. To my knowledge all streaming services are stuck using the lossy Dolby Digital Plus codec for Atmos content.

For anyone interested in listening to Atmos music in Dolby TrueHD without resorting to physical media, you may want to check out this article by Chris Connaker of Audiophile Style on using an Nvidia Shield to play downloaded MKV files.
Not a lot of Atmos music content out there yet in MKV file containers, but one can live in hope…

 

[Substance]

One potential advantage of HDMI is the ability to play music in Atmos. Am I right that this is not possible with digital coax?

Having said that, if the only option for playing music in Atmos is through the Music app on an ATV, then without Dolby TrueHD or bitstream passthrough I don’t think lossless playback is possible. To my knowledge all streaming services are stuck using the lossy Dolby Digital Plus codec for Atmos content.

For anyone interested in listening to Atmos music in Dolby TrueHD without resorting to physical media, you may want to check out this article by Chris Connaker of Audiophile Style on using an Nvidia Shield to play downloaded MKV files.
Not a lot of Atmos music content out there yet in MKV file containers, but one can live in hope…

This is correct. Digital coax is limited to PCM stereo in 24bit/192KHz. However it is debatable if Atmos or any multi-channel audio is audiophile tailored. But hey, your preference is what matters at the end of the day.

 

[Surge]

I'm saying this as a call to action vs. being a naysayer and maybe should start another thread, but I want to call attention to the fact that Apple, with their home theater device, just:

- Boosted CPU/GPU power considerably
- Added 33% more RAM
- Doubled storage
- Improved networking
- Enhanced the powerful, voice-integrated, well-built, included remote control
- Added support for another dynamic HDR standard with HDR10+
- Slimmed the chassis
- Removed the fan
- Announced additional voice control software features coming soon
- Dropped the price
- Released the first rev of their yearly, major software revision (well, a couple weeks ago they did this one)

When you look at that list, it's clear why I feel wanting from K out of CEDIA. I want K to win, it's sweet they had an amazing presence at CEDIA, and I'll still continue to sing the praises and virtues of the platform. At the same time, I really want to see active, regular advancement, features, and so on start rolling.

None of these changes actually improve image and sound quality from the Apple TV. Actually, the new one will have worse sound and image quality than the previous gen: the chassis has lost its RFI/EMI thick metal shield and it's lighter overall. Storage is irrelevant unless you game on your ATV.

The best option here is the Apple TV X (AppleTV X). I have one and it's a game-changer. Video quality is better than Kaleidescape. More detail, more sharpness, better contrast. Audio quality is much better than a stock ATV but not at the lossless level with K-scape content. We can only imagine what a "Kaleidescape-X" would be like without the constraints of streaming.
As much as I love my Kaleidescape, had I known about Apple TV X, I would have only bought the ATVX (it's that good, and about 1/4 the price).

I really hope Kaleidescape addresses this with a future product. Using a $1 power supply, and not being concerned with jitter, etc., is not the way to optimize video and audio quality.

 

[Dew1551]

This must be a joke or a scam!

 

[Surge]

This must be a joke or a scam!

Not at all. Why would you think that?
There are a few reviews online and more coming.

As I said - better picture quality than my Kaleidoscape. Audio is essentially on par.

 

[Oldred]

This must be a joke or a scam!

I don’t tend to click on links like this but I did without thinking but never got there because It was flagged with a warning by Google or Norton (can’t remember which now). I also searched on that product name and got nothing back so I will give it a miss.

 

[Surge]

Not sure why the site doesn't load for you. Works fine on my end and I have zero affiliation to the company.
Here's the main review, with more coming: Xtreme Projectors Hotrodded Apple TV 4K Video StreamerImpressions: A Brief BLAST about the Xtreme Projectors Hot-Rodded Apple TV (TVX) 4K Video Streamer - Positive Feedback

It really is legit and very impressive. If you chose to bash it because you don't believe it, that's your call of course, but not very useful

 

[Oldred]

Not sure why the site doesn't load for you. Works fine on my end and I have zero affiliation to the company.
Here's the main review, with more coming: Xtreme Projectors Hotrodded Apple TV 4K Video StreamerImpressions: A Brief BLAST about the Xtreme Projectors Hot-Rodded Apple TV (TVX) 4K Video Streamer - Positive Feedback

It really is legit and very impressive. If you chose to bash it because you don't believe it, that's your call of course, but not very useful

My post has nothing to do with belief and everything to do with unnecessary risk. I will keep a look out for the product you reference but won’t pursue the link you posted.

 

[Surge]

My post has nothing to do with belief and everything to do with unnecessary risk. I will keep a look out for the product you reference but won’t pursue the link you posted.

Got it, for sure, makes sense. I would feel the same as you if the link didn't work! Anyway, the review link above is to a different site, Positive Feedback, so you can try it.

 

[TrackZ]

This is wild. I wonder if they’ll X the new model.

 

[Xymox]

This is wild. I wonder if they’ll X the new model.

I wont be modding the new one as its a big step down in how its built. This round of engineering was meant to cheapen it up. It has no important improvements. HDR+ is only useful to people with Samsung TVs, the 128GB flash is useless as no one ever uses 32GB now. Pretty much no one games on it. If if you gamed via it, you would screen share from another device that had real power for gaming, like a iphone or laptop. You can tell how much cheapening they did, its 1/2 the weight. Tons of important shielding are gone. 1/2 the weight makes it way cheaper to ship, less metal to machine, faster assembly. They put the wifi antennas on the main board with the HDMI, Ethernet and CPU. This radiates Wifi RFI into those systems. The stock power supply went from a std 12V 2A ( 24W ) to a 4.3V 1A ( 4.3 W ) supply and they placed the board 1/8" from the HDMI/Ethernet/CPU. This radiates switching power supply noise into the main board as the only shielding in this new ATV is a 3M like shielding tape VS a 1/4" thick slab of metal in the 4K 2021.

To touch on a few of the horrors inside this device.

I was hoping maybe it might be as good, or even better then the 4K 2021, but had heard already that the main focus was to radically cheapen it. But its just junk. Well, its junk if you want performance from it. For the masses it will be cheaper and lighter.






VS the 4K 2021 which the ATVX is made from..

I don’t tend to click on links like this but I did without thinking but never got there because It was flagged with a warning by Google or Norton (can’t remember which now). I also searched on that product name and got nothing back so I will give it a miss.

Its flagged by McAfee Site Advisor as having a PUP, Potentially Unwanted Program. not a virus or issue. This is a false positive based on the huge pic file that loads on the site. Most sites don't have 20MB pics. This file looks to McAfee like its a program of some type it does not know and somehow the bytes in it are triggering some weird thing on their end. I have already started a procress to fix this but McAfee takes FOREVER ( months ) to review and fix things like this. Also they seem to think it is some kind of consumer scam, you would think the reviews would offset this, but noooo... McAfee was good before John McAfee sold it. After that it was junk.

Every other tool online shows my site as perfectly safe. For example, google Google Transparency Report

Honestly, I don't really care as I have all the sales I want, hehehe.. I am good with people not going to the site I am currently a little too busy..

So I think the ATV 4K 2021 could well go down as the best ATV ever made and units after this are most likely going to get cheaper yet and might go away completely. I have stocked up on ATV 4K 2021s and even after that could refurbish and restore used ones and provide mods to current owners. So I am staying focused on this unit.


Thank you Surge for mentioning it.

Now if only k-scape had a app that ran on ATV to stream content from its local server Its possible because HIGHLY secure content is done this way every day on movies/shows in production via Adobe Frames.IO app at really high bit rates using impressive CODECs. So its possible. VLC can play UPnP content off a local server for example. kscape would need to seriously encrypt the stream, but, it could be done. Then it could plan on my ATVX.

 

[Xymox]

I mean,, if these guys can stream dailies of feature films during production to the AppleTV, its secure enough to stream movies for kscape I would think.

The best media I have ever seen was via Frame.io.. I have some people in the industry using ATVXs.

 

[Xymox]

A update from McAfee on my AppleTV X site.. I aimed my lawyer at them.. That worked..

Hello,

Thanks for sending your request. Upon our review, the Site Advisor rating will soon be adjusted in the database to not list appletvx.com.
Please allow a few hours for the rating to update. In case you continue to face any issues in regards to the Site Advisor rating for appletvx.com after this time frame, please contact us again.

Sincerely,
Petra
McAfee Customer Respons
e Team – Germany

Idiots..

 

[Substance]

On the contrary, the new design should have a cleaner output. The new model is a lot more efficient and consumes much less power therefore RF/EMI contamination is exponentially reduced. It does not need a large heatsink and a fan due to much lower power consumption. The inductive fan load/noise is eliminated all together with the removal of the power supply cooling fan. The clocks are already shielded. The processor operates at such high frequencies with such low voltages, the RF energy in these conditions is so small that it does not warrant larger shielding. I wouldn’t call it a cheaper design.

 

[Xymox]

On the contrary, the new design should have a cleaner output.

Cleaner.. How do you define that ? Jitter reduction on the HDMI ? Noise floor on the TDMS ? I measured those, it worse then the 2021.

Im not sure how you translate power consumption to RF/EMI in exponential terms ?

There is no "inductive fan load/noise" in real use as the fan never comes on unless your gaming or have it in a hot environment.

The clocks are already shielded.

??? Ummm.. The case on the clock chip ? haha.. What about the trace that feeds from it to the chip ? And what about the ethernet controller, or the HDMI chip. And all those traces ? But OK lets ignore all that. How about the RF/EMI radiated by the switching transformer of the power supply being 1/8" on top of the main board with a 1/32" of shielding tape ? The old design had a solid metal 1/4" plate. And the WiFi antennas being part of the main board ? VS the old one where they where on the top of the unit isolated by 1/4" of metal ? How about that 120V power wire running across the main board unshielded right next to the Ethernet traces ? VS the old one being immd isolated from the main board by 1/4" metal block ?

The changes were all to reduce cost, NOT to improve performance. They clearly could have gone to 8K. That would have been logical. But they did not. BECAUSE it would use more power, require a heat sink, require move current and of course COST more.

I am in the middle of moving to a larger facility. Once I am there, redeploy the lab and catch up on orders I will do a in-depth direct AB technically between the 2. I will also have a complete go at mods. I will then do a AB of fully modded units.

I would LOVE if you were right. All my clients would love to upgrade and I would love to have easy to get stock units, however, I did quick measurements of HDMI parameters and it had 30% more jitter, it had a number of new noise components on the HDMI signals and I could clearly see the 2.4 and 5 ghz wifi on the HDMI signals there were also a number of fundamental carriers and harmonics I had not seen before. the Ethernet had backfed RFI induced onto it. I think this was the new lower voltage PS switching harmonics. Its no longer lite-on and some cheaper manufacturer. Using a spectrum analyzer with a active probe showed all sorts of RFI, not just from the power supply, all around the unit. I saw RFI penetrating that 3M like shield tape. That tape is much less performance then a metal block.

EVERY aspect of this to me looks cheaper. Can I mod it and address all that and then get at least the same performance as the current unit ? Doubtful, but, I still hold out hope. I would LOVE to be wrong.

I guess the real question is why anyone would WANT one ? Its new "features" are 128GB of flash, a 30% faster CPU, HDR+ and some IoT things. The faster CPU is useless for std streaming and only useful for the gaming apps. The larger flash seems useless for streaming, HDR+ - well *maybe* if you have a Samsung and cant do Dolby Vision, and IoT ?!

So I don't see any reason to get one.. To me its more like people just getting it because its NEW and they always get NEW things not understanding that NEW is not necessarily better. THX1138 > "Buy more, buy more now, be happy"

It reminds me of this Onion piece of classic comedy..

 

[Xymox]

BUT... and its a BIG but...

I am looking at it from a perspective of modding it heavily and then its performance.

How does it compare pic/sound with the current one unmodded ? That seemed like a toss up to me on a quick AB. Who knows, maybe the new one might have a slight advantage for some freaky reason over the 2021 doing a stock setup.

SO... Pretty much ignore me. In late dec I will do a in-depth blind AB stock and do a technical deep dive and do youtube vids. I will also do basic mods and see how it fairs technically and subjectively VS the 2021 in a blind AB. I will jump inside it and measure noise and such on the buses and stuff at the chip level, like phase noise on the clocks, radiated noise from the new chips, and see what all spurious emissions those buck/boost switching regulators are producing. Look at regulation accuracy and of course noise measured on the power supplies at the chip input pins. I will then know a lot more VS the 2021.

 

[Substance]

Your marketing strategy is not loyal bro. Why you so aggressive to prove a point?

It’s $150 device meant to watch lossy to the core Netflix and Apple TV+. To be frank, I don’t really care if it is better or worse. I don’t do Plex either. That’s why I am here at the Kaleidescape forum. Nevertheless good luck with your product.

 

[Xymox]

good luck with your product.

Thank you

I get attacked for some reason a lot over it, so I am quick to be defensive.

But what if cleaning up HDMI turned out to be more important to pic / sound quality then bitrate ?

Most people are watching series and stuff from streaming. DirecTV and cable offer apps. most k-scape owners have a streaming device they use often. Those $129 ATV boxes are just junk and most everybody would like a improved solution.

Of course I still feel that K-Scape, and high bit rate from any source, is awesome. Now if k-scape had a way to play local server content on a ATV Well then, I think that would be a awesome solution.

Next year I plan on looking at the k-scape client boxes for mods. A lot of ATVX owners have asked about this for their devices.

 

[Substance]

Are you an EE or an ECE? Do you understand the RF theory and how discrete time signals work? If you know the answer to these then you know the bitrates are more important than cleaning jitter on the HDMI. But let’s agree to disagree. I don’t want to turn this into a pages long debate. You don’t need me to agree to have your product successful.

 

[Xymox]

Yes on most items.

What I found the most interesting, and its why I am going to see about doing a SMPTE paper, is that something that is not part of the current perceptual model for vision seems to be present. Like when the audio world discovered that audio jitter mattered, and even the spectrum of that jitter mattered. THE most interesting part for me has been the visual impact the changes made. I cannot corrolate the jitter, TDMS noise or any specific thing I can measure with the large obvious visual improvement. I have intentionally jacked up jitter and looked at the pic with some blind AB, I have added all manner of noise, and these dont seem to affect picture quality like you would think. I think whatever perceptual stuff is going on needs to be better defined and some good science needs to be done. For example. Jitter on the bus between the cpu and the HDMI chip matters. WHY ? HOW ? I dont know, but I did some ABs and everyone saw it. Back at the CPU, something there matters too. How can that be ? I have measured less jitter in frame decoding, can that matter ? I donno..

I understand why audio improves of course. 3/4 streams of TDMS going at insane levels is insanely jittery and reconstruction of the streams is messy too. This all leads to messy digital audio signals in gear that picks off the audio. The way audio is packeted and transported is also not the best on HDMI.

Its the video aspects tho that are really interesting to me. I think there might be new visual science that can be done.

So I feel that fairly vast improvements can be made in the HDMI link, and that chips that feed it, that could well be far more important then you might think simply because we don't understand fully how the human visual model works.

Back in the day, just before audio jitter was isolated, most of the engineers would proclaim that digital audio was perfect. Everything measurable was near perfect. YET lots of people were saying it sounded bad. Jitter was isolated and a new parameter was discovered and equipment was tweaked to reduce it. I think there is something going on we dont know yet to measure that affects the human visual model.

Yes. I can agree to disagree. I understand your skepticism fully. I respect it too.

My plan next year is to far more deeply explore this. Its REALLLY interesting.