Apple TV 4K Discussion Thread

[Xymox]

Bitrate is super important, things in motion should not loose rez. You really need the bitdepth for every pixel in motion.

But I propose there has been a weak link. One that has been present since we started HDMI. I also propose this weak link is extremely visible. Just IMHO of course. But if that is the case, and if this link is fixed, then its possible that lower bit rate material might look a lot better then you would have thought was possible. In some ways, even better then the highest bitrate material because the weak link is gone.

Bitrate is not the only thing at play in picture quality. Its all the stuff delivering those bits.

 

[TrackZ]

@Xymox, some constructive feedback, I think folks are very interested in what you are doing here and want to constructively discuss it with you, but aspects of your replies can get in the way of positively discussing your work and product.

That said, I'm really interested to test one of these and cover it on my channel. I was supposed to chat with Bill last Friday, but he hasn't called yet.

The other comment I'll make is I think plenty of us want the newer model. It's excellent. It's much snappier and movie wall UIs work better with a faster processor and more RAM. Some of us do actually enjoy Apple Arcade and are delighted to have 128GB of space. HDR10+ is great for Samsung TV owners and JVC NZ projector users. I think you are under-estimating the need and value of offering a "clean" X variant of the latest version, wherever Apple goes with it.

 

[Substance]

@Xymox, some constructive feedback, I think folks are very interested in what you are doing here and want to constructively discuss it with you, but aspects of your replies can get in the way of positively discussing your work and product.

That said, I'm really interested to test one of these and cover it on my channel. I was supposed to chat with Bill last Friday, but he hasn't called yet.

The other comment I'll make is I think plenty of us want the newer model. It's excellent. It's much snappier and movie wall UIs work better with a faster processor and more RAM. Some of us do actually enjoy Apple Arcade and are delighted to have 128GB of space. HDR10+ is great for Samsung TV owners and JVC NZ projector users. I think you are under-estimating the need and value of offering a "clean" X variant of the latest version, wherever Apple goes with it.

Good videos on the new Apple TV. I am also a bit disappointed in the new smaller chassis not fitting the TV/Wall mount kit which I purchased literally a little more than a month ago.

I bought a new Roku Ultra around the same time because of its much better integration to Control4 and Josh.Ai. I really like the mini apps on Control4 which ATV doesn’t support (no official API).

I am keeping my ATV 2021 and considering upgrading to the 2022. What are some of the other things you use your ATV for? I am considering buying a gaming controller. Any suggestions on which one and any games to suggest from the arcade store?

 

[TrackZ]

Good videos on the new Apple TV. I am also a bit disappointed in the new smaller chassis not fitting the TV/Wall mount kit which I purchased literally a little more than a month ago.

I bought a new Roku Ultra around the same time because of its much better integration to Control4 and Josh.Ai. I really like the mini apps on Control4 which ATV doesn’t support (no official API).

I am keeping my ATV 2021 and considering upgrading to the 2022. What are some of the other things you use your ATV for? I am considering buying a gaming controller. Any suggestions on which one and any games to suggest from the arcade store?

Thanks!

We use our ATV for streaming apps, aside from K I have a 1,500+ movie collection in iTunes, Apple Music, family photos/airplay, and casual gaming. My kids enjoy Sneaky Sasquatch and tinker with other stuff Crossy Castle, Criket Through the Ages, and other easy pick up and play type games.

 

[Xymox]

@Xymox, some constructive feedback, I think folks are very interested in what you are doing here and want to constructively discuss it with you, but aspects of your replies can get in the way of positively discussing your work and product.

That said, I'm really interested to test one of these and cover it on my channel. I was supposed to chat with Bill last Friday, but he hasn't called yet.

The other comment I'll make is I think plenty of us want the newer model. It's excellent. It's much snappier and movie wall UIs work better with a faster processor and more RAM. Some of us do actually enjoy Apple Arcade and are delighted to have 128GB of space. HDR10+ is great for Samsung TV owners and JVC NZ projector users. I think you are under-estimating the need and value of offering a "clean" X variant of the latest version, wherever Apple goes with it.

I am going to focus on the hardware platform that produces the best picture and sound. My focus is on performance of the picture and sound. a 1" 2 track Studer takes a lot longer to thread up to play music and has a lot narrower set of applications, but its performance is what counts not its snappy UI. A ATVX is not for everybody. I am not after mass appeal at all. Gaming with the appleTV is a very small market, as I had mentioned in email, a good way to game with the same games would be from a far more capable iphone and screen share on the appleTV. I dont know of any streaming use that requires more then 32GB of flash ? I have seen ATVs that got messed up after updates and needed a full reset to regain space tho.

Almost every client I have now is doing SDR as all TVs and projs are SDR. The clients that do other things are doing Dolby Vision. To date with over 100 installed worldwide I have no one using a device that needs HDR+. This might change if a display device ever becomes HDR, IE no tone mapping required. But until then SDR or Dolby Vision is the way to go. Dolby Vision of course has a list of issues as well.

Mostly I prefer word of mouth marketing. Nearly all my sales have been from someone who owns one showing or telling a friend. Also the press guys and high end AV mfgrs I have known for decades also quietly spread the word. The only reason I post in forums is to defend my users who post post and get accused of fraud and get trampled on, like what happened here. You will have to excuse my mannerisms in forums but for the ATVX I have been under constant attack and now I just come out fighting right away. I don't like it when my product is bashed as a fraudulent scam and its happy users get attacked.

I am currently making the right number of units per month. I do not want to make more units then I am making now. These were never going to be a mass market product. 20 a month is perfect. I think I also need to think about a maximum installed base of units. I will want to update and maintain my clients for a decade and so I don't want too many in total so I can provide the best level of service because I email and get to know each client, its a relationship. So I may limit production at some point.

I am going to fully explore the 2022. I am moving to a bigger facility with more lab room. I should be back up mid december, then I have a backlog to fill in production which will occupy me thru december. Then in early jan I will jump into the new ATV 2022. As I have posted its *possible* it might be as good as the 2021. Its unlikely, but I still hold out some hope. There is more room inside so I can put in more stuff. But its a low power lesser HDMI chip made for low performance applications. Its not 48G. BUT I will do extensive mods and testing. I do not want to make/maintain 2 SKUs if one is lesser performance.

ANYWAY.. sorry for interuptions in the discussion of stock 4K 2021 VS 2022. A quick AB I did showed them to look and sound about the same. So for stock units, the cheaper price and faster UI plus larger flash for gaming might indeed be the selling points. For my use tho, its different.

 

[Substance]

I think if you post screens shots of a stock ATV and your ATVX showing the same frame will do the best marketing. If there is a significant improvement and its clearly shown on the screenshots, you won’t have to deal with the naysayers anymore. Since you already made claims that your ATVX beats Kaleidescape, I would even throw in some captures from a Strato C showing the same frame.

 

[Xymox]

Whats to stop me, or others, from doing photoshop ? I sure would never trust a pic of a pic.

Plus a picture of a picture posted on the internet and displayed on a random uncalibrated monitor, or phone, is about as far as you can get from objective proper evaluation. The correct way is a independent well established reviewer AND of course real life users with established forum profiles who have documented systems who have done careful AB doing posts of thier experence. Which I already have a lot of. My units are currently mostly selling the way I like, people go see it in person at a friends house where they can do AB or they hear about it from a known trusted source.

Remember. I don't need marketing. I have all the sales I want now. In fact I already throttle back users and reviews. I would rather it be a cool low key product you gotta know someone to get.

BUT we should drop talking about it here and get back to the forum topic, the stock ATV 4K 2022. I think there is not much more to say about the ATVX. So best to move on Lets just agree to disagree and let it go.

 

[Surge]

Your marketing strategy is not loyal bro. Why you so aggressive to prove a point?

It’s $150 device meant to watch lossy to the core Netflix and Apple TV+. To be frank, I don’t really care if it is better or worse. I don’t do Plex either. That’s why I am here at the Kaleidescape forum. Nevertheless good luck with your product.

You "don't care" yet you bothered to explain why it's better -- you're wrong, BTW. If you care about A/V quality, that is. If you are using a 40" display in the kitchen, then yeah, it doesn't matter.

 

[Surge]

Are you an EE or an ECE? Do you understand the RF theory and how discrete time signals work? If you know the answer to these then you know the bitrates are more important than cleaning jitter on the HDMI. But let’s agree to disagree. I don’t want to turn this into a pages long debate. You don’t need me to agree to have your product successful.

Totally wrong. In theory, maybe, but not in practice my friend, not in practice. If you were right, then something like a Lumagen 5348 would have no benefit over the 4000 series. And a high end DAC would have no audible benefit over a low cost DAC. I don't intend to start this debate here. All you have to do is read a review or better yet watch/listen for yourself.

 

[Surge]

I think if you post screens shots of a stock ATV and your ATVX showing the same frame will do the best marketing. If there is a significant improvement and its clearly shown on the screenshots, you won’t have to deal with the naysayers anymore. Since you already made claims that your ATVX beats Kaleidescape, I would even throw in some captures from a Strato C showing the same frame.

Best thing you have said in this thread . I'll post one tonight. Video quality is considerably better than the Strato. Audio is close; but the Strato is better simply because it's lossless. But it's so close, even on my ~$400K audio system it's not enough to make me choose Kaleidescape over ATVX, and since video is better, I choose ATVX.

 

[TrackZ]

Best thing you have said in this thread . I'll post one tonight. Video quality is considerably better than the Strato. Audio is close; but the Strato is better simply because it's lossless. But it's so close, even on my ~$400K audio system it's not enough to make me choose Kaleidescape over ATVX, and since video is better, I choose ATVX.

I really wish they would consider sending me a demo. I could cover it really well, I think.

 

[Surge]

I really wish they would consider sending me a demo. I could cover it really well, I think.

I’m not speaking for the company but I know he generally welcomes reviews. There are a few in the works actually. I think they are moving to a new facility, so that’s why perhaps you haven’t heard back.

 

[Substance]

None of you answered my simple question, do you hold a degree in electrical engineering, electrical and computer engineering or electronics engineering? It is not a shame if you don’t but how did you come to learn (and master) how RF works and discreet time signals are processed?

Better picture than Kaleidescape? First thing you learn in engineering (and programming) is garbage in = garbage out, there isn’t a whole lot you can do about it. There are no free lunches. You hope to design a power and signal delivery system with minimal losses, you never ever dream of gaining anything along delivery and execution, physics won’t allow it. You can’t magically add extra bits and resolution.

You can filter the power sections all you want, spend so much time and money there. And yes, it will measure better on the scope. There are diminishing returns. Certain components such as FPGAs and asics don’t care and don’t see those improvements. Cleaner power stages will however lower the electrical noise on the HDMI output and reduce jitter. This will maybe improve (faster) handshaking with HDMI (source>sink) and reduce cross noise contamination to other equipment (relevant on poorly designed hardware). Again, you will not magically add extra bits and resolution to any video or audio.

I didn’t want to revisit this subject and I will say these. Beside debatable technical merits, this device is not professionally presented. It doesn’t look good. You can buy similar linear power supplies on eBay for $200. He could place that linear supply in a custom, much attractive looking enclosure with such asking price.The website is crap. I already expressed my opinion on the marketing work. It simply doesn’t give a premium feeling, With such asking price, you are in the premium market, everything matters. Learn a thing or two from Kaleidescape instead making claims that your product beats it.

 

[Substance]

Totally wrong. In theory, maybe, but not in practice my friend, not in practice. If you were right, then something like a Lumagen 5348 would have no benefit over the 4000 series. And a high end DAC would have no audible benefit over a low cost DAC. I don't intend to start this debate here. All you have to do is read a review or better yet watch/listen for yourself.

Not apples and apples. Lumagen 5348 regenerates (and re-clocks) the signal in a buffer, while using better dc to dc converters in its power sections to create their power inputs. In other words, it natively creates cleaner power and more consistent signal. Furthermore, Jim at Lumagen openly admits on the tech document on the Lumagen website that we should not expect improvements on the video side. ATVX is merely attempting to reverse the damage Apple made with better filtering which the later electronics in the chain may or may not care. Yet claims to bring 16mbps at best Netflix streaming to upwards of 100mbps Kaleidescape downloads level or beyond?

Expensive DAC vs cheap DAC? How do you connect this to upgrading the Apple TV? Did you create a new product from ground to up against the stock Apple TV? We are talking about a digital device with zero analog outputs. Did you somehow alter the closed source Apple code?

 

[Substance]

Best thing you have said in this thread . I'll post one tonight. Video quality is considerably better than the Strato. Audio is close; but the Strato is better simply because it's lossless. But it's so close, even on my ~$400K audio system it's not enough to make me choose Kaleidescape over ATVX, and since video is better, I choose ATVX.

Good for you.

 

[cinelife]

Personally, I only trust comparisons I get to see in person, I no longer trust pics and videos, especially if I think there is "backdoor" marketing involved. This is because we can make any image slightly better or worse in a pic or video just by manipulating the equipment before filming.

Although, like Track, I'd rather see it myself, I'd accept Kris Deering's evaluation, send one to him.


Jim

 

[Surge]

Personally, I only trust comparisons I get to see in person, I no longer trust pics and videos, especially if I think there is "backdoor" marketing involved. This is because we can make any image slightly better or worse in a pic or video just by manipulating the equipment before filming.

Although, like Track, I'd rather see it myself, I'd accept Kris Deering's evaluation, send one to him.


Jim

Kris is reviewing it. Not sure why you don’t just stick to trusting only what you see. Why trust Kris? Anyway, he’s reviewing it.

 

[cinelife]

Please reread my post, I said "Although.....I'd rather see it myself, I'd ACCEPT" Kris's evaluation." (That's because of my respect for Kris.)

We created this sub-forum to allow members to discuss alternatives to K, so we're not bothered by the discussion, BUT, I will not allow snarky comments or baiting for an argument, those belong on a different Forum.

That said, I do respect your right to have an opinion, and to post what you've experienced with a different product, that's why this thread exists, but let's please use a more friendly tone when we deal with other.

Jim

 

[Surge]

The reason why I'm posting here is because my hope is that Kaleidescape will apply similar updates to the Strato as was done with Apple TVX. Either in partnership with ATVX or not. The Kaleidescape platform is capable of a lot more in terms of AV quality.

The first evidence of this can be seen and heard when you replace the stock, poor quality, power supply with a linear unit. These cost $500+ (again, @Substance is incorrect, they do not cost $200). But they are nevertheless a worthwhile upgrade to the Kaleidescape.

Another point I feel compelled to clarify, because many of you are Lumagen owners: @Substance is incorrect about video quality improvements with the 5348. What Jim said is, and I quote: "I believe I did see an improvement, and you can test this for yourself, assuming you have both a 4XXX and a 5348."

 

[Surge]

I think it’s funny that you singled out Kris Deering as the only reviewer you trust, when he recently said he sees no difference in video quality from Kaleidoscape vs streaming platforms . Odd person to trust on this topic.
Here’s the quote and link:
“I'm using the more dominant streaming services, the quality is nearly imperceptible to K for most of the content I am watching.”

Kaleidescape Strato Movie Player 4K HDR

You and a lot of other people. I don't know the answer to this, but if Apple's content s no more inclusive/complete than K's, I don't know if I would switch (My cost of entry expense is already gone). But for those contemplating K, and given the cost of entry, K would be in deep trouble. If...

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