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3D video - Do you care?

MikeG

Well-known member
⭐️⭐️PATRON⭐️⭐️
MODERATOR'S NOTE: (This discussion started in another thread, and I moved it here for further discussion.)

Thanks Josh. 3D is a total non-issue for me; no way I'm I wearing glasses to watch video, sorry. My Pioneer 141 is still fantastic, and until Panasonic improves their 85" monitor, I'm happy.

The audio limitation is also an issue for me, as a Meridian fanboy; currently trying to figure a workaround.

Your plan Josh to "downgrade" the M500 to a second room is a good one as well; we think alike.
 
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3D is a total non-issue for me; no way I'm I wearing glasses to watch video, sorry.

OK, so I hear this a lot, and I don't understand it at all. You're saying you will never ever wear glasses at home for some special event or 3-D movie? Did you see Avatar in 3-D in a theater? You wore glasses for 2 hours then, didn't you?

There's this misperception out there that putting in 3D screens and players at home means you HAVE TO wear the glasses whenever you're looking at that screen. No one presumes you'll put on glasses every time you watch video content... it's for a very rare, special event or special movie experience. Outside of that, the 3-D capable flat panel screens are just outstanding high-end 2D screens. (assuming it's the 240hz active-shutter variety, not polarized lenses on your display glass with passive polarized glasses).

I'm actually excited to get a 3D-capable display at some point. It will be an outstanding normal 240hz 2D 1080p monitor 99.99% of the time. Maybe once in a month, we'd decide to do a 3-D movie... or we'd check out a game in 3D, or watch the Superbowl that way... we'd press the button to enable dual-120hz, 3D mode rather than 240hz 2D mode, and enjoy a nice 3D movie or event.

Think of it like maybe a massager/vibration mode that may be in your higher-end car seats. No one thinks you're planning to drive around all day long with vibrating, thumping, heating elements assaulting you... but once in a while if you like it, it's there. right? Would you think it odd if someone said "Sorry, I'm NOT getting that car because it has freaking massaging things in the damn drivers seat, no way, not ever, sorry!"

When it comes time to upgrade my displays, it would seem crazy not to get a high-enough end unit that CAN display 3D if someday I want it. There's no downside other than the maybe $500 or so higher price. So I feel the same way about my high-end expensive movie player... I'd sure like it to have the capability.
 
Josh, I will just wait for them to come out with the glasses free tech. Im not a fan of wearing the glasses for football games.
 
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OK, so I hear this a lot, and I don't understand it at all. You're saying you will never ever wear glasses at home for some special event or 3-D movie?

Never is a srong word. I can say regularly, even monthly, no. So now that I have a home media distribution system, the very thing we are on this board to discuss, I now I have to get up or think about it in advance and go to the place where the glasses are stored, maybe a different room on a different floor; don't you think this a step back in the user experience?


Did you see Avatar in 3-D in a theater? You wore glasses for 2 hours then, didn't you?

IMAX, looked great.


I understand that you do not need to wear the glasses to utilize the new monitors. What I am resistant to is finding glasses for my family on movie night, seven of us total, with how many extra friends floating around: "Matt, where are your glasses? I don't know Dad, I put them down over there last time...I'll just use yours..." I think you get this point.

Wouldn't you prefer a solution like this? Not saying it is the best, but at least it's a start in the right direction:
http://www.pcworld.com/article/190937/3d_imageswithout_glasses.html


I would far prefer that manufactures concentrate on increasing screening resolution. We must remember that 1080p is not HD nirvana. When it comes time for me to upgrade my monitor, if the best set is 3D, then that's what Ill buy.


Jerry, thanks for the link explaining the sex/professor comment ;)
 
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I will never, ever, never ever, ever never, never never ever, and always never wear glasses at home for a 3d sporting event using the current 3d tech. Those are enjoyed with other family and friends around and when moving around and my understanding is the 3d effect fails when you do this.

Now, in my media room with a big screen for a dedicated presentation where Im not going to move around, sure, Id be up for that. But, IMHO, 3D is not something I am convinced of. Avatar was good but I do not think its the 3D that makes the movie. I think what makes it work is its the first time a CGI driven movie where the CGI was actually believable. The 3D is a nice addition, and it was well done with Avatar.

Maybe they will come out with 3D displays that do not require glasses. I will care more then.

What would make me far more excited than 3D is full audio decoding inside the M500.
 
What would make me far more excited than 3D is full audio decoding inside the M500.

true, but as a company marketing products, I'd put 3D as a priority over improving audio decoding.

Kaleidescape Inc has just announced their all new players with full audio decoding!!!!!

or...

Kaleidescape Inc has just announced their all new players with full 3D capability!

Only one exclamation mark and I bet most would find the latter a more interesting headline.
 
I agree- Im just talking about me. I do think many people will balk at 3D at home with the issues involved with it right now. Ironically, the people most likely to adopt 3D are also probably K owners. So its another strike on the M500.
 
I understand that you do not need to wear the glasses to utilize the new monitors. What I am resistant to is finding glasses for my family on movie night, seven of us total, with how many extra friends floating around: "Matt, where are your glasses? I don't know Dad, I put them down over there last time...I'll just use yours..." I think you get this point.

Wouldn't you prefer a solution like this? Not saying it is the best, but at least it's a start in the right direction:
http://www.pcworld.com/article/190937/3d_imageswithout_glasses.html

OH MY GOD, NO, I don't want that solution. I've tried it... saw that display in person. I hear you about not wanting the hassle of glasses, but it's not going to happen.

So why does that screen look cool at a trade show and not work at home? Simple optics. You'll see the right image only if you're in one of the "64 positions" they mention in the newscast you linked to. and if you stay completely motionless. And if your head is perfectly vertical. If you shift your body just SLIGHTLY (3-4 inches is enough from some seating distances!) to the left or right, then the wrong eye gets each image. you see the REVERSE 3-D effect, which is horrible.

Think about it... somehow one discrete image needs to reach each viewer's LEFT eye, a separate one needs to reach each RIGHT eye. Blasting the images in "stripes" radiating out from the screen (like thick alternating spokes from a bike wheel) can work only in VERY unrealistic setups... each person finds one of the sweet spots and remains perfectly still. their left eye is in one of the "pie wedges" radiating out from the screen for that image, and same for right eye. move even slightly, and you get a blur or the reverse images. The issue is that the screen is just radiating out LEFT slices and RIGHT slices and of course has no idea whose head is where. How can it control which eye is currently sitting in a slice for each wedge? It can't of course. So some viewers get the inverse image, some get a blended/blurry image, and a very few, sitting perfectly still, will see the right image.
7d1249898762-autostereoscopic-displays-autostereoscopic-flip.gif

Remember those 3-D kids books? the pictures had this rough surface if you moved your finger across it? same basic technology (Lenticular Autostereoscopy), little prisms sending out one image in lots of little slices, interspersed with the other image in alternating slices. Your brain can make sense of it, but remember how the image shimmered if you moved your head or the book left and right? This is a necessary evil, your eyes are moving across the "right" and "wrong" slices.

9views-small.jpg

But it worked for a static image, primarily because it had the advantage, since it was a book and would be held in the hands, that the designers could design the lenticules knowing the typical viewing distance of about 18 inches or so. move too close, and the effect goes away, move further away, same thing. Can't really do that well when you assume multiple viewers at different viewing distances and positions. NOTE, that you WILL see laptop computers using this technology... since, like books, you can assume a relatively fixed viewing distance and typically straight-on viewing angle, (as in the picture above), but you WILL still get the shimmer effect moving left and right.

There's another technology choice for Autostereoscopy - called a Parallax Barrier. Similar to Lenticular lenses... it blocks half the image from radiating in certain angles, the other half from alternating sliced angles, so that (ideally), one eye gets one image, the other gets the other image. The barrier can be physical (tiny light-blocking bars down the display) or done with LCD crystals... but the effect is similar.

parra1.jpg

So what are the problems here? Well, probably obvious by now... set viewing spots where it works, but far more other spots where it's blurry, distorted, or the 3-d image is even completely reversed. No ability to tilt your head and preserve the 3-D effect. So forget leaning your head at an angle on your partner, or laying down... anything other than perfect 90 degree straight up-and-down head position means NO 3-D, just a blurry mess. You can see this in the pictures above... notice the lenticles are cylindrical, aligned up and down and the Parallax Barriers are also aligned vertically.

If that's not bad enough, you may already have figured out one of the other problems with Lenticular and Parallax Barrier autostereoscopy... something the breathless mainstream media articles also fail to mention: the horizontal resolution of your display is HALVED! Half the vertical columns of pixels are sending the left image, half are sending the right. So, you'll put up with 1/2 the detail/resolution! Starting to really want that display yet? :rolleyes: All those problems AND half resolution!

So, I want a no-glasses solution as much as you do, but unfortunately, the more you look into this and think about the problem with a flat 2D display trying to send out an image to one eye that's 2.5 inches away from the other eye, and doing this for multiple viewers at multiple angles and varying distances, you realize that the solution (for now) is to separate the images at each person's face, not at the display.



Your example about "Dad, I can't find my glasses" really rings true for me too. (albeit only 2 kids), but put in that display you're talking about and the experience becomes one of forcing those kids to sit in a specific spot with no movement at all, heads perfectly upright, or everyone quickly getting headaches and seeing blurriness. AND, those screens CAN'T do normal 2D without massive loss of resolution and detail. they have a lens that is distorting the image permanently. A real nightmare.

So until we have something like holodeck technology, we're forced into 3 choices:
  1. Active-shutter glasses
    Disadvantages:
    • geeky, expensive, battery-using glasses.
    Advantages:
    • Perfect 3-D images to each viewer, regardless of distance, viewing angle, or angle of head-tilt
    • a screen that does perfect normal 1080p 240hz images 99% of the time when not in 3D mode.
  2. Passive polarized glasses
    Disadvantages:
    • Requires glasses (slightly less geeky/bulky)
    • compromised 2D images unless polarized filter is physically movable,
    • dimmer image,
    • 3D performance may degrade with head-tilt positioning.
    Advantages:
    • cheaper-but-still-geeky glasses,
    • no batteries or recharging.
  3. Autostereoscopic ("Glasses-Free") Displays

    Disadvantages:
    • Half the vertical resolution for all displays
    • defined micro-sweet-spots for the right 3-D effect.
    • viewers must remain perfectly straight, can't move left-or-right without 3-D effect shimmering and swapping between "proper" and "reverse 3D",
    • dramatic loss of detail and performance for normal 1080p 2D content.
    Advantages:
    • ???


    Disadvantages: Advantages: ??​

Personally, I'll take #1... and rarely use 3D, but enjoy my outstanding 2D performing screen 99% of the time... and very rarely deciding to switch into 3D mode, but when I do, knowing each viewer is getting the full effect regardless of location or head angle.

Fun discussions, would like to hear what others think who have experienced the various technologies.
 
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So one followup to my long post above.... maybe this will give SOME hope to Jerry and Mike. It is THEORETICALLY possible to design a display that could adjust the parallax barrier crystals so that images were sent to each viewer's eyes if some serious processing power and cameras were mounted to the display capable of locating and picking out human heads, and detecting the location and positions of their eyeballs.

funktionsprinzip_C-i_s.jpg

Sounds crazy, but it has been done in a lab, but only for a single viewer. Cameras track and locate the head, find the eyes, and adjust the crystals on the display to account for that person's location.

The problem is that it takes enormous real-time processing, and cameras pointed at the viewing area from the TV. AND it can really only work for one viewer... so far. Too much computation and it is likely outside the limits on adjusting crystals to separate the image differently for each viewer.

But, even with this slight glimmer of hope for real no-glasses 3D, two of the inherent problems mentioned above with autostereoscopic displays remain. Resolution is halved, and viewers need to remain with heads upright. (Remember, the display is interlacing (vertically) the left and right images, which are then separated by the crystal barriers.)

So I'm afraid that, while promising, and while very interesting technologically, making this affordable and practical is likely a LONG LONG way off.

--josh
 
I will wait until it's well and truely established (and a format has been chosen) :rolleyes: When and if K integrate it, then I'll probably adopt.

For now it's still a treat popping down to the Multiplex to see a 3D movie, yes I still do on occasion... + can't deny the little 'uns their pick 'n mix!

P.
 
So I'm afraid that, while promising, and while very interesting technologically, making this affordable and practical is likely a LONG LONG way off.

So be it. I can wait :)

Thanks for that detailed explaination Josh. Wow. Very informative.
 
Thanks Josh for that- I think Im with you- but I think the mass market will be with the last one- they won't care about the resolution loss- they will want it to be cheap and to wear no glasses.

Mike, I never made any link about sex and professors but if there is one then I could be curious as to what it is because the only link I ever found in college was inverse!

I also think one thing people are ignoring about 3D is the size of the screen- in the theater it is huge- the 3D affect works great. But at home even a 60" plasma at a normal viewing distance does not fill your field of vision like in a theater. So even if we had that magic 3D display that required no glasses and you could move around freely, the simple size of most people's displays- I bet the average is somewhere around 38-45"- at a normal viewing distance this is just simply unconvincing.
 
Adding my 2 cents, I've seen most methods of delivering 3D and although I believe 3D has an attraction, it is far from meeting my standards at this point. I also doubt I'll ever be able to wear 3D glasses on a regular basis, so it would have to be a no glasses setup to get me interested.

Everyone watches 2D**, not everyone watches or cares about 3D. I've got a friend with significant vision loss in one eye, essentially blind in that eye, he obviously could care less about 3D, and then there are those that just will not wear glasses to watch a movie. I'm sure there is a market for 3D, and for those that can live with the current video quality limitations and other issues, the usual marketing techniques will likely locate these folks and they'll be bringing 3D home. I may one day be one of those folks, but not until 3D improves substantially.

**I say everyone, but I actually had a Professor in law school (Property) that claimed to have NEVER watched TV and had never been to a movie. As a child it was forbidden in his home because his parent's believed it destroyed the intellect and created cultural ""zombies." His education and exposure to "the world" came only from reading a diverse selection books, newspapers, and debating with his family, a practice he continues to this day. (BTW, he is a great guy, wonderful sense of humor, and probably wouldn't be interested in 3D!:))


Jim
 
TV and movies are ruining the youth!

Oh wait, thats rock-n-roll. Oh wait, thats comics, oh wait, thats talkies. Oh wait, thats moving pictures. Oh wait...... it must be the internet! ;) You get the idea.
 
TV and movies are ruining the youth!

Oh wait, thats rock-n-roll. Oh wait, thats comics, oh wait, thats talkies. Oh wait, thats moving pictures. Oh wait...... it must be the internet! ;) You get the idea.

I don't understand. It must be the new math...
 
When books first appeared on the scene, those in power did not like the idea of the masses reading and becoming learned, therefore those who were educated said books would destroy the youth of the time. And so it goes.
 
I wonder if cavemen thought kids playing with fire would be the end of civilization...
 
Nah- its too difficult to burn down those caves. The problem is that those pesky dinosaurs don't decode PCM internally! ;)
 
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