IMPORTANT: PLEASE PARTICIPATE This forum's future — a discussion, and an ask

[josh]

I highly value this forum and the time and effort both in it's maintenance and from some of the more prolific posters. When I first became a K owner I also became a paid member of this site which is the first and only time I have paid for such a forum. However, after the first year when my paid membership lapsed I didn't renew.

The reasons are sadly outside this forums control I am afraid to say. My enthusiasm with K has waned somewhat and it doesn't help that K's involvement with this forum has been a rather mixed bag to say the least. K has been a downgrade from the discs they replaced both in respect to Audio and Video quality but also in respect to available content. As such my ownership of K has been hanging by a thread for a considerable amount of time and will almost certainly be coming to an end soon once I have been able to rebuy all the discs I sold when purchasing K.

As such my lack of interest in paying for this forum and the valuable service it provides has absolutely nothing to do with the forum itself and its members and everything to do with the product that it relates to.

I really appreciate this candid response here... just the kind of thing I was hoping to hear and from which to learn. I understand what you're saying and can hope that in the future your enthusiasm for the product will increase again. I understand people who feel the way you do. Thank you.

 

[josh]

Is there a scenario that everyone (who, for example, wants to be able to post at all but don't care about the extra benefits) pays a little (e.g., $30/year), and then have the higher tiers for those that pay more?

I have been one of those who is here a lot, but hasn't paid anything up to now (but I have been around for less than a year). I do pay for other forums, but they are also a lot less than $80/year.

(And yes, this thread pushed me to contribute.)

thank you for joining as a supporter @by96! It is so greatly appreciated.
And yes, I'm seriously considering a model like you've suggested. VERY little (or no) content for UNREGISTERED anonymous visitors, SOME content for registered-but-not-paying users, and no restrictions for those paying at some level. This thread is a way to hear from people as I think through those decisions.

 

[josh]

I would suggest that advertising and paid membership may not be mutually exclusive with advertisements being restricted to non-paid members only.

Yes, if we ever did take advertising, it would of course completely be hidden for those paying at some threshold.

You would also think that with all the free QA services some members on here provide to K that K themselves might want to chip in a little. After all with the price they charge for storage they can probably afford it! If they did however I think conflicts of interest would need to be managed.

I've resisted asking for (or taking) money from Kaleidescape, as it does create scenarios for conflicts of interest. I want to allow critical voices here (on the products, service, etc., not about other members or personal attacks) and if we take money from Kaleidescape there could be cases where they don't like something said and then question any support dollars they're paying. It's why I no longer trust car forums, electronics forums, or watch forums (or youtube channels) that take sponsorship dollars from the manufacturers they cover. So I'm very hesitant to ask for financial support from Kaleidescape.

I'd MUCH rather have what we have today... they show their support for our community by participating, not by paying. Having @MikeKobb, @J.Green, @tayloe and others has been worth way way more to the quality of this community then any small financial commitments they'd make.
AND it's why I should have specifically listed those accounts in my list in the original post of people who I do NOT expect to pay!

 

[josh]

I would also think there could be a much more expensive dealer membership level as dealers would have access to an engaged client base and the ability to sell high margin hardware to the users. The used marketplace could probably be monetized further as well....especially from users that sell often.

I would target monetization to breakeven (or whatever profit is necessary) with these ideas: (again, just my two cents as a user not knowing what's already been explored in the past)

• members pay because they want to support (this will always be low conversion)
• sellers pay because they are transacting. Those that sell often could easily pay more.
• dealers pay because they are generating leads (this has high margin so should be worth much more)
• sponsors pay because they want access to this audience (again these are likely companies selling high margin products)

thank you again for very good thoughts. I think if dealers are getting value here, then yes, I'd hope they'd consider paying, but there could be some behavior that emerges that could be detrimental... e.g. if a dealer pays, they may think they can start to be more explicit about soliciting members to buy from them. That wouldn't be good, so it's why I still HOPE that dealers here will consider supporting the forum just to help the overall Kaleidescape community, but would refrain from any soliciting for business here that will upset other dealers, who would then complain to Kaleidescape and to me and Jim.

 

[josh]

That...or Epson could do it here as well. Or JVC or Harman or Trinnov etc. Those targeted and relevant sponsorships would be way better than random banner ads advertising unrelated brands. There is obviously a passionate audience here that is willing to spend on premium products. The value should be there for these types of A/V brands (and Dealers) to pay to get in front of the audience.

interesting. While I wouldn't want Kaleidescape being a financial sponsor for reasons stated above, I don't see the same issues with someone like Trinnov or Marantz or JVC. Appreciate these ideas.

 

[josh]

I agree. I decided to buy a membership after reading this post. I didn't notice the link, so went hunting for the page. Eventually found it but it wasn't easy. Sales fundamental: the buying process must be simple and easy.

Interesting. I thought I had gone too far the OTHER way... that non-paying members were getting non-dismissable banners, occasional login reminders, etc. But will check this since it seems you weren't seeing those. (possibly ad blocker you were using?)
But more importantly, thank you @Kabillyhop for joining as a paid member. Very much appreciated!

 

[flitebynite]

I guess the question is: If this site became financially viable, would you stay? Or has it become too much?
I'm not a tech/internet-savvy guy, but I bet there are guys here who could help. Some already do....

 

[paulc]

I'm a Patron member but I'm willing to chip in more to ensure it continues to thrive. Perhaps, you can create a higher tier of membership so I can do so, or I am happy to contribute in any other way you deem appropriate. Hopefully, those who do more set an example for those who have not upgraded to paid status. (You and Jim have certainly set an example in so many ways.)

Interesting discussion.

I am with Gadgetman from the above quote. I would also be willing to help further beyond the Patrol level. Not sure what vehicle we would use to do that. Maybe consider a "benefactor" level of support. However, I do understand and appreciate having a more even distribution of member support.

Just let us know and I'm sure that many of us would step up to help out further. I know we have many good folks supporting in so many ways.

I also want to take this opportunity to thank you (Josh), Jim and all the others contributing time and resources to this very successful community.

Paul

 

[josh]

I guess the question is: If this site became financially viable, would you stay? Or has it become too much?
I'm not a tech/internet-savvy guy, but I bet there are guys here who could help. Some already do....

thank you. I think right now it's the combination of the hours of work that are required, much of which no one here will ever see or know about, along with the costs continuing to rise far more than the membership contributions. So some combination of reducing the work or reducing my own personal financial ouflows would have to occur to keep it going.

So, could volunteers offering to help make the work less? possibly... but sometimes adding people doing parts of this can add its own layers of complexity, so i've resisted help on the technical side while welcoming the help on the forum content that people see... most notably from Jim but also the incredibly volunteers who track movie releases, sales, pricing, availability, and who answer so many users!

A lot of the work no one sees is the weeding out of *daily* or **hourly** spammer registrations and trying to figure out which are real users trying to register (maybe 20%?) and which are commercial or foreign spam bots getting FAR more sophisticated. Then there's deflecting fraud attempts, updating and maintaining software, certifications, forum add-ons, licenses, hosting issues, email providers, , etc. The site breaks is some way more often than you see or know, or generates server errors that have to be dealt with for at least a couple of hours per week, and sometimes that rises dramatically into many hours in a day... etc. Maintaining the marketplace listings can also get time-consuming. Then just regular moderating, moving posts/threads, accepting/rejecting requests or edits, etc. all takes time.

It's hard to share in much of that work, as the interplay of the software from Xenforo, the add-ons I either need or desire from independent developers, the hosting provider and their server/hosting setup issues, email providers, domain hosts, fraud and DDOS prevention tools to maintain, billing issues from vendors, etc. are all complex and interconnected in ways that have taken me many years to learn and figure out. Just accepting an offer to help in some of those areas could take more time to offload or oversee than it's worth. maybe.

All that said, I've truly enjoyed the big expansion of this community and am especially pleased that there's more and more discussion of the content of movies (LOVE working in and reading the movie recommendations forum area), seeing recommendations among members, etc. Seeing tools like @OUTATIME's "Popcorn Ready" emerge from this forum has been fantastic. And the quick technical answers that come from the community for new users has also been enjoyable to see. Seeing Kaleidescape employees like @J.Green and @MikeKobb and others who spend many hours a week on the forum helping, learning, responding... that's all rewarding to me as well.

So it's not all drudgery and frustration! I do hope to keep it going as I get personal enjoyment as both an end-user of the equipment as well as the admin of the site. I just need to reduce the burden and the impact of the hundreds (and often the hundreds-of-thousands) of people who have caused the workload and cost to rise so much with fewer than ever (percentage wise) contributing to the costs.

Will keep people up-to-date. At the very least, if I reach the point of wanting to be done with this, I'll of course seek to turn it over to someone within the community to keep it running and maybe find much better ways to creatively administer it, make it more valuable as a resource, and grow it even more.

 

[111-JEDI]

I've been running this forum for 19 years (with incredible help, time and support from Jim, and with amazing assistance from a few super-members who manage major parts of the forum areas). There's no advertising, I receive zero financial support from Kaleidescape, there's no selling of your data — just my (our) own time and money, helped by a few members who pay to keep the forum running.

Lately I'll be honest: the trend I'm seeing is dispiriting.

First - the good news:

In February plus the first half of March, this forum had a record 376,897 unique visitors — people actively browsing, not just bouncing. That's remarkable growth, and reflects how much this community has become the go-to resource for Kaleidescape owners.​

Other record-setting high numbers:​

• 3,266 registered members of the site
• 656 highly-active members, coming more than twice a month and spending 20+ minutes on the site

What's more, two key metrics that show the value of the site — average time-on-site per visit and average page views per visit — are also both at record highs. Jim and I are proud of that. The content here is clearly engaging and helpful.​

And... the bad:

Here's the number that is also setting a record, but in the wrong direction: only 136 people are choosing to pay for a premium membership that helps this forum continue to pay its bills and show Jim and me that this place has real value to them. That's 0.03% of visitors, but the better way to look at it is we're at 4% of our membership base, or 16% of those highly active members here.​

​

That last number (16% of highly-engaged/active members) is the lowest it's been in over six years — despite the forum seemingly having more valuable content and more engaged discussion than ever before.​

I don't say this to guilt anyone — but after 19 years of keeping the lights on and putting in countles hours and a lot money, I'd be lying if I said it didn't sting a little.

That said, there are many people visiting here who are absolutely not expected to pay anything to use the site:

• Any owners coming occasionally to ask a question, see when a movie is released, or read about some hardware issues. We love supporting new and casual users who visit a few times per month or less. Casual users are welcomed here, paying or not.
• Someone looking to browse and buy equipment in the marketplace... Our model has been that sellers have to pay to list eqiupment but buyers are welcomed and of course we'd not have a marketplace if people didn't come and engage with sellers.
• And definitely not those well-known 6-7 prized super-members who contribute incredible hours to updating movie releases, prices, sales, availability, updates, etc.! They contribute something more valuable than money to this community, and nothing more is ever asked or expected of them.

The question for me is those 600+ members here for hours and hours, some visiting almost daily, who have been here often for many many years and that clearly seem to get a lot from the forum but haven't yet been convinced to contribute to the costs, even at the lowest support tier.

For any members here who have not paid for a premium tier membership, I'm genuinely curious: what would make a paid membership feel more worth it to you, or what has stopped you from doing it? More perks, more utility, something else entirely? And it's OK to say "I just get all the value for free so I don't see why I'd pay" — even that very honest answer helps me think through what to do with the forum going forward.

But I'll throw in an ask as well. If you've gotten value from this forum — found the answer to a frustrating problem, bought or sold gear safely, learned about new movie releases, or taken advantage of a posted price change, or just enjoyed spending time here being among people who get it, it would mean a lot if you considered upgrading to a Premium or Patron membership. I deliberately keep the membership costs quite modest — what matters more to me is the signal it sends that this place is worth keeping around.

While gaining new premium members from this post would be nice, I am also hoping to start a dialog about the future of the forum and how to keep it going here in a way most effective and helpful to the users. I have my own theories and some ideas, and there are definitely things I can do to boost the revenue to cover costs, but I'd really rather hear your thoughts and ideas first.

Thank you!

--josh

This is the best forum I've seen - special thanks to you Josh! Thank you to you and Jim for serving it up hot every day! I've gotten tons of great ideas and the ability to have a space for buying/selling old gear, the great movies recommendations, the insights and collaboration with the Kaleidescape team. All very well done!

 

[audio-videophile]

Thanks @josh and @cinelife for all you do to make this forum (KOF) the excellent source of information that it is! Providing this forum and ensuring that the discussions & comments are civil is an important factor in the success of this forum!

Many of Josh's comments in his initial post are similar to what I have read from the social network that I use, Mastodon (specifically Mastodon.world). However, one difference is that the Mastodon instance that I use provides financial updates (sometimes just once per year) that spell out monthly donations vs. expenses (income & outflows), as well as user trends, etc. This helps users see when donations are crucial as well as rationale behind the request for donations.

I am not asking for this information from @josh , but instead just providing this Mastodon.world information as a comparison.

I have been on the fence about donating to KOF since I joined last year after having been a lurker for awhile. However, this data filled post and request by @josh has been the impetus to get me to join as a paying member.

Thanks again @josh and @cinelife!

 

[OUTATIME]

Thanks @josh and @cinelife for all you do to make this forum (KOF) the excellent source of information that it is! Providing this forum and ensuring that the discussions & comments are civil is an important factor in the success of this forum!

Many of Josh's comments in his initial post are similar to what I have read from the social network that I use, Mastodon (specifically Mastodon.world). However, one difference is that the Mastodon instance that I use provides financial updates (sometimes just once per year) that spell out monthly donations vs. expenses (income & outflows), as well as user trends, etc. This helps users see when donations are crucial as well as rationale behind the request for donations.

I am not asking for this information from @josh , but instead just providing this Mastodon.world information as a comparison.

I have been on the fence about donating to KOF since I joined last year after having been a lurker for awhile. However, this data filled post and request by @josh has been the impetus to get me to join as a paying member.

Thanks again @josh and @cinelife!

That sounds like a reasonable model from Mastodon. Transparency coupled with membership drives a few times per year would increase conversion of regular members into paid members. I'm thinking of NPR membership drives too and they often have matching donations, etc as part of that process. Maybe dealers, sponsors, vendors, and heavy users of the marketplace for sales would chip in significantly as part of a matching program during a membership drive to help increase the size and commitment of the community. All of those specific groups can gain financially from a larger community so they should be the most likely to offer some sort of matching on a membership drive in my opinion.


And I also agree that this forum is great! And it's even better the more active it becomes!!!

 

[josh]

Thanks @josh and @cinelife for all you do to make this forum (KOF) the excellent source of information that it is! Providing this forum and ensuring that the discussions & comments are civil is an important factor in the success of this forum!

Many of Josh's comments in his initial post are similar to what I have read from the social network that I use, Mastodon (specifically Mastodon.world). However, one difference is that the Mastodon instance that I use provides financial updates (sometimes just once per year) that spell out monthly donations vs. expenses (income & outflows), as well as user trends, etc. This helps users see when donations are crucial as well as rationale behind the request for donations.

I am not asking for this information from @josh , but instead just providing this Mastodon.world information as a comparison.

I have been on the fence about donating to KOF since I joined last year after having been a lurker for awhile. However, this data filled post and request by @josh has been the impetus to get me to join as a paying member.

Thanks again @josh and @cinelife!

thank you so much for joining the ranks of generous financial supporters!
Very much appreciated.

As for transparency, I've already posted the number of paying members... though don't forget there are many people in that count who are paying at the "supporter" level (usually because they're selling equipment), so they pay just $15 and typically just for 1 month... so average value of a premium user is less than you might otherwise guess or calculate.

On the costs side, I'd rather not post it publicly, but the costs are probably higher than you'd guess unless you've run medium-scale public usergroup forums recently. And I'm not counting value of my time or opportunity cost in any way, though those things are an issue for me in terms of motivation.

 

[elee532]

This forum was incredibly helpful with my entry into the Kaleidescape Premiere system. I happily paid for a year based on that value. I do still stop by, and make the occasional post. However, at this point I feel like the cost is not in line with the amount I use the forum. The people here are incredible, and when I have had a question the responses have been quite helpful.

Is there an option for a lower tier or contribute a custom amount option? I’d be happy to pay something in the $30 or so range right now if that were possible. This feels more in line with what some of the other forums I’m active with suggest for a contribution amount.

Thanks so much for what you do!!

 

[Edgar]

I can honestly say this is the ONLY forum I've ever upgraded to a paid membership. I get more out of this community than any other and I'm happy to chip in.

Very similar experience for me. Plus I also pay for Bill Hunt's Patreon as well. These two are it. Like @thrillcat I value this community and its contributors. I feel more at home here than almost anywhere else online. In fact, I only visit this site, The Digital Bits, the Bits' Patreon, AVSForum, and my game guild's Discord channel. I don't do any other online chat or social media. Even if for nothing else, I value the movie recommendations here, such as Drive, It Follows, and others, that I didn't even know about but have now become core collection movies for me. I feel like the members are self-selecting movie fans of my generation, with my sensibilities, who genuinely love cinema. You even have a guy whose name is @LoveCinema! Who happens to be the only other person in the world I've ever met who even knows what Under the Skin is, and loves it as much as I do.

I have found my people. And I'm happy to support them.

 

[Edgar]

Thanks @josh and @cinelife for all you do to make this forum (KOF) the excellent source of information that it is! Providing this forum and ensuring that the discussions & comments are civil is an important factor in the success of this forum!

Many of Josh's comments in his initial post are similar to what I have read from the social network that I use, Mastodon (specifically Mastodon.world). However, one difference is that the Mastodon instance that I use provides financial updates (sometimes just once per year) that spell out monthly donations vs. expenses (income & outflows), as well as user trends, etc. This helps users see when donations are crucial as well as rationale behind the request for donations.

I am not asking for this information from @josh , but instead just providing this Mastodon.world information as a comparison.

I have been on the fence about donating to KOF since I joined last year after having been a lurker for awhile. However, this data filled post and request by @josh has been the impetus to get me to join as a paying member.

Thanks again @josh and @cinelife!

I also made the decision to become a paying member because Josh wrote a thoughtful and honest post about the realities of running this forum. I don't really take advantage of the extra perks, except perhaps editing my typos, beyond the huge perk of keeping this site alive. I'm not even consistently here, given the focus I have to give in other areas of my life. But when I am here, it's quality time. I like the site as is, and hope more members see the benefit of just keeping it going as is.

 

[soGM]

I've been running this forum for 19 years (with incredible help, time and support from Jim, and with amazing assistance from a few super-members who manage major parts of the forum areas). There's no advertising, I receive zero financial support from Kaleidescape, there's no selling of your data — just my (our) own time and money, helped by a few members who pay to keep the forum running.

Lately I'll be honest: the trend I'm seeing is dispiriting.

First - the good news:

In February plus the first half of March, this forum had a record 376,897 unique visitors — people actively browsing, not just bouncing. That's remarkable growth, and reflects how much this community has become the go-to resource for Kaleidescape owners.​

Other record-setting high numbers:​

• 3,266 registered members of the site
• 656 highly-active members, coming more than twice a month and spending 20+ minutes on the site

What's more, two key metrics that show the value of the site — average time-on-site per visit and average page views per visit — are also both at record highs. Jim and I are proud of that. The content here is clearly engaging and helpful.​

And... the bad:

Here's the number that is also setting a record, but in the wrong direction: only 136 people are choosing to pay for a premium membership that helps this forum continue to pay its bills and show Jim and me that this place has real value to them. That's 0.03% of visitors, but the better way to look at it is we're at 4% of our membership base, or 16% of those highly active members here.​

​

That last number (16% of highly-engaged/active members) is the lowest it's been in over six years — despite the forum seemingly having more valuable content and more engaged discussion than ever before.​

I don't say this to guilt anyone — but after 19 years of keeping the lights on and putting in countles hours and a lot money, I'd be lying if I said it didn't sting a little.

That said, there are many people visiting here who are absolutely not expected to pay anything to use the site:

• Any owners coming occasionally to ask a question, see when a movie is released, or read about some hardware issues. We love supporting new and casual users who visit a few times per month or less. Casual users are welcomed here, paying or not.
• Someone looking to browse and buy equipment in the marketplace... Our model has been that sellers have to pay to list eqiupment but buyers are welcomed and of course we'd not have a marketplace if people didn't come and engage with sellers.
• And definitely not those well-known 6-7 prized super-members who contribute incredible hours to updating movie releases, prices, sales, availability, updates, etc.! They contribute something more valuable than money to this community, and nothing more is ever asked or expected of them.

The question for me is those 600+ members here for hours and hours, some visiting almost daily, who have been here often for many many years and that clearly seem to get a lot from the forum but haven't yet been convinced to contribute to the costs, even at the lowest support tier.

For any members here who have not paid for a premium tier membership, I'm genuinely curious: what would make a paid membership feel more worth it to you, or what has stopped you from doing it? More perks, more utility, something else entirely? And it's OK to say "I just get all the value for free so I don't see why I'd pay" — even that very honest answer helps me think through what to do with the forum going forward.

But I'll throw in an ask as well. If you've gotten value from this forum — found the answer to a frustrating problem, bought or sold gear safely, learned about new movie releases, or taken advantage of a posted price change, or just enjoyed spending time here being among people who get it, it would mean a lot if you considered upgrading to a Premium or Patron membership. I deliberately keep the membership costs quite modest — what matters more to me is the signal it sends that this place is worth keeping around.

While gaining new premium members from this post would be nice, I am also hoping to start a dialog about the future of the forum and how to keep it going here in a way most effective and helpful to the users. I have my own theories and some ideas, and there are definitely things I can do to boost the revenue to cover costs, but I'd really rather hear your thoughts and ideas first.

Thank you!

--josh

Thanks Josh, why not charge a $2 month minimum to registered users ? Non-registered, unique visitors .. $2 per day. Put a big pay button on the first page, so one click, payment goes through. No hunt and search how to pay. The benefit on non-registered is -0- to the you. It may be a benefit to the dealers, and dealers should have an up charge. Peace. Thank you for what you do.

 

[Johnraiders]

Curious how many users actually own some Kscape gear, dont think I started paying until I'd actually bought something.
I visit every day, the info is still really useful and wouldn't have bought so many movies if it wasn't for this forum.

 

[josh]

Curious how many users actually own some Kscape gear, dont think I started paying until I'd actually bought something.
I visit every day, the info is still really useful and wouldn't have bought so many movies if it wasn't for this forum.

Not sure what % of our members own the gear already, but I'm guessing it's pretty high. We do get some "researching" members, but mostly once they register and join they are owners. I'd guess 70% of our registered members are owners.

 

[josh]

Thanks Josh, why not charge a $2 month minimum to registered users ? Non-registered, unique visitors .. $2 per day. Put a big pay button on the first page, so one click, payment goes through. No hunt and search how to pay. The benefit on non-registered is -0- to the you. It may be a benefit to the dealers, and dealers should have an up charge. Peace. Thank you for what you do.

Possible. It will dramatically cut the number of members for sure... there are just a large number of people who won't pay anything, maybe out of principle or maybe out of the hassle of entering purchase information and seeing a recurring charge. But it's something I'm going to consider. Thanks for participating (and for being a Patron member!)