When should we expect luma improvements in 4K Cinematic?

[mkozlows]

In a comment on a now-closed thread, @tayloe noted that "the luma channel can look a little softer" and said "We are currently testing solutions to improve the luma."

Any update on when we should expect to see those improvements come to new encodes? Do y'all plan to go back and update the existing "softer" encodes? (I would have expected so, except that it doesn't seem like there's been any pause in the cadence of Cinematic releases, and it feels weird to keep adding to the pile of work that you need to redo... but it would also feel weird to leave these sub-standard "softer" encodes around as a trap in the library forever.)

 

[mkozlows]

In @tayloe's most recent locked-thread comment, he noted that "We have fixed most of those problems and are finalizing fixes for the remainder."

Can you provide more clarity around when we should expect to see those fixes on new content, and whether you'll be re-encoding existing 4KC content with these fixes or not?

(And is there any way that you can demonstrate those fixes without violating the DMCA? It'd be nice to see a before/after if possible.)

 

[Nathan28]

All awesome questions… I hope we get some answers soon

 

[Houseman]

Bumping this thread up.

I really hope the Kscape team follows through on fixes but also clear and regular communication with this community on these issues.

 

[Houseman]

Actually, @josh throwing out an idea to have a stickied thread for Kscape employees to provide updates on encode recipe fixes/changes, and other technical bug fixes?

These types of threads can easily get buried, so having a place where 1) users can raise issues and ask questions and 2) Kscape can respond would concentrate these discussions in one place vs muddying up this section with multiple threads (clearly there’s a group of people who aren’t interested in these types of improvements/discussions)

Thinking it could be similar to the KEAOS updates sticky thread. This would only be feasible if Kscape made some commitment to make use of it, of course.

Just a thought.

 

[erixon1138]

Is the luma thing only on certain titles? Or is it only visible on certain displays?

 

[JonProphet]

Is the luma thing only on certain titles? Or is it only visible on certain displays?

Looks like you have an older Sony PJ. I do as well. I only play SDR files so you likely won't see any benefit from a K or the newer encodes. Our projectors don't even support HDR let alone HDR10 or Dolby Vision. Doesn't mean our PQ is inferior, just that we use tone mapping to get great colors.

 

[mkozlows]

Is the luma thing only on certain titles? Or is it only visible on certain displays?

As far as we know, it's on all titles that have been encoded so far. I'm hoping that Kscape reps can tell us when we start to see fixed titles and whether older ones will be fixed, but as you can see, they haven't responded to that question yet.

As for visibility, the effect is that it makes the image somewhat softer than it would otherwise be. If you look at a chart like this:



... then imagine that this extra softness takes it back from the edge of Ultra HD capability: A maximally sharp encode would be at the teal line marking the limit of UHD resolution, and now we're... somewhere in that teal area, still sharper than 1080p, but not as sharp as the sharpest-possible UHD.

So to a large extent, this may not be visible to people at their normal seating position -- if you're 10' away from a 100" display, maybe these softer encodes are still at the limit of what your eye can resolve. (But that said, recent research shows that the eye can resolve differences with more acuity than the older research on which charts like this were based, and it's hard to say what equivalent resolution these images have, so this is all a bit of a handwave.)

 

[JonProphet]

As far as we know, it's on all titles that have been encoded so far. I'm hoping that Kscape reps can tell us when we start to see fixed titles and whether older ones will be fixed, but as you can see, they haven't responded to that question yet.

As for visibility, the effect is that it makes the image somewhat softer than it would otherwise be. If you look at a chart like this:

View attachment 12108

... then imagine that this extra softness takes it back from the edge of Ultra HD capability: A maximally sharp encode would be at the teal line marking the limit of UHD resolution, and now we're... somewhere in that teal area, still sharper than 1080p, but not as sharp as the sharpest-possible UHD.

So to a large extent, this may not be visible to people at their normal seating position -- if you're 10' away from a 100" display, maybe these softer encodes are still at the limit of what your eye can resolve. (But that said, recent research shows that the eye can resolve differences with more acuity than the older research on which charts like this were based, and it's hard to say what equivalent resolution these images have, so this is all a bit of a handwave.)

I think what he is getting at is projector vs. panels. Obviously HDR and Dolby Vision were targeted at Panel Televisions and projectors.

There are some projectors who claim they can do DV and HDR10+ but a lot of those are DLP pixel shifters who aren't doing 4K and doing some clever tricks to get around actually doing true DV or HDR10+.

Sony's newer projectors the 5000 and 5100 etc, support DV but what they are doing, I don't know. Its a lot of tone mapping on older projectors like mine. I can watch HDR and DV titles but they are dark and don't look right.

 

[mkozlows]

This has nothing to do with HDR, and doesn't matter that way.

 

[JonProphet]

This has nothing to do with HDR, and doesn't matter that way.

Help me out on what you mean?

I know there are 4K Cinematic files with SDR but if you have a K with a projector that doesn't support HDR or DV as I stated, most of the Cinematic files are based on the DV, no? My projector supports some funky 4:4:4 at a certain hertz that I can't even play. I'm not 100% on how that hand shaking works.

 

[JWort93]

Help me out on what you mean?

I know there are 4K Cinematic files with SDR but if you have a K with a projector that doesn't support HDR or DV as I stated, most of the Cinematic files are based on the DV, no? My projector supports some funky 4:4:4 at a certain hertz that I can't even play. I'm not 100% on how that hand shaking works.

My understanding is they're based on the same mezzanine files as the normal SDR version, whether that's the studio providing a native SDR grade, or they're derived from the HDR12 (DV) mezzanine with the use of a trim pass, depends on the title. They'd still have a theoretical benefit over the 4:2:0 SDR grades, the current luma sharpness issue notwithstanding.

 

[MarvinTheAndroid]

Is there actually anything to fix? The update from K seemed to imply that the luma issues were a design choice rather than a defect. Are they going to solve the real root cause of the issue as I suspect people are expecting or are they just as likely to apply artificial sharpening or other added processing to try and mask or reduce the perception of the problem? K do have form when it comes to adding artificial sharpening on encodes and subjective testing with a likely biased audience seems to be their QA over objective measurements. Personally I hope for the former but expect the latter.

Could folks already be able to get most if not all of the improvements K will deliver by simply cranking up the sharpness on their display?

 

[mkozlows]

Could folks already be able to get most if not all of the improvements K will deliver by simply cranking up the sharpness on their display?

You can't retrieve real information that's been lost by cranking up sharpness to emphasize the information that remains. Doing destructive blur/sharpen cycles on an image is not as good as just having a sharp image to begin with.

As to how Kscape will fix the issues... well, my assumption is that they'll fix them by making the encode better, rather than by leaving it bad and turning up a sharpen knob. But all we have from them on this topic are the two posts linked at the top of this thread, so people's guesses will just be calibrated to how cynical the guesser is, and I'd rather not have the thread full of a bunch of random uninformed opinions, as I'm still holding out hope (probably vainly at this point) that @tayloe or some other Kscape person will give us more information.

 

[Nodular]

I watched No Country For Old Men 4KC HDR 10 earlier using a JVC NZ9 and Lumagen 5348 professionally calibrated and personally thought the image for an older title looked incredible.

 

[mkozlows]

I watched No Country For Old Men 4KC HDR 10 earlier using a JVC NZ9 and Lumagen 5348 professionally calibrated and personally thought the image for an older title looked incredible.

I don't want to threadcop, but can we keep impressions of different movies to a thread made for that purpose?

 

[Houseman]

Actually, @josh throwing out an idea to have a stickied thread for Kscape employees to provide updates on encode recipe fixes/changes, and other technical bug fixes?

These types of threads can easily get buried, so having a place where 1) users can raise issues and ask questions and 2) Kscape can respond would concentrate these discussions in one place vs muddying up this section with multiple threads (clearly there’s a group of people who aren’t interested in these types of improvements/discussions)

Thinking it could be similar to the KEAOS updates sticky thread. This would only be feasible if Kscape made some commitment to make use of it, of course.

Just a thought.

@josh holding out hope for your thoughts on this.

The original mega thread that captured this exchange is gone at the request of the OP. Fine.

The thread discussing the mega thread had morphed into to a venue to continue this type of discussion, and seemed to be turning a corner but was then closed at your discretion. So be it.

I’d love your thoughts on the right evergreen venue to continue these transcoding and image improvement discussions and questions for Kscape. Either an existing thread you recommend moving to, or the creation of a new one.

Despite some member departures, there’s clearly still a large appetite for it.

 

[Nodular]

I don't want to threadcop, but can we keep impressions of different movies to a thread made for that purpose?

I can post over on the "Movies Watched" Thread. Just one post from me on here highlighting the fact as a Cinematic title said movie looked superb.

 

[deejaykorn]

Personally, I think the only true fix is to increase the average bit rate of the Cinematic encodes. Going from 80Mbps for the standard 4K encodes to 115Mbps for the Cinematics isn't enough to properly compress the additional chroma data AND provide a meaningful increase in overall detail. In some cases, as we saw, the Cinematic encodes actually looked softer.

 

[Jin-X]

@josh holding out hope for your thoughts on this.

The original mega thread that captured this exchange is gone at the request of the OP. Fine.

The thread discussing the mega thread had morphed into to a venue to continue this type of discussion, and seemed to be turning a corner but was then closed at your discretion. So be it.

I’d love your thoughts on the right evergreen venue to continue these transcoding and image improvement discussions and questions for Kscape. Either an existing thread you recommend moving to, or the creation of a new one.

Despite some member departures, there’s clearly still a large appetite for it.

Yeah the first thing I wondered when the other thread was closed was: “Ok so where do we go to talk about this and not knowing what 4:2:0 title has been updated or not?”