Member consensus is using their eyes… and perception..
Rmarci takes it to an entirely different analytical level that takes it passed perception and into actual scientific data.
-
Thanks for visiting the Kaleidescape Owners' Forum
This forum is for the community of Kaleidescape owners, and others interested in learning about the system, equipment, services, and the company itself.It is run by a group of enthusiastic Kaleidescape owners and dealers purely as a service to this community.
This board is not affiliated in any way with Kaleidescape, Inc.
For official technical support, product information, or customer service, please visit www.kaleidescape.com
You can dismiss this box forever by clicking the "X" in the upper right corner of this message. -
You are currently in "Guest" mode and not logged in with a registered account.
The forum is free to use and most of the forum can be used by guests who are not registered....
... but we strongly encourage you to register for a full account. There is no cost to register for a full account.
Benefits of registering for a full account:
- Participate in the discussions! You must have a registered account to make posts on the forums. You will be able to start your own thread on a topic or question, or you can reply to other threads/discussions.
- Use the "Conversation" feature (known as "private messaging" on other forums) to communicate directly with any of the other users here.
- Access the Files area. The "resources" area of the forum contains many "Favorite Scene" and Script files that can dramatically increase the enjoyment of your Kaleidescape system. Go directly to great scenes in your favorite movies, created by other owners, and add automation to playback of your system with Scripts.
- You won't see this annoying notice at the top of every screen!😊
This box goes away for registered users.
NEWS: Strato K Movie Player with 8K capability and new "4K Cinematic" full-chroma & higher bitrate support
- Thread starter josh
- Start date
Rmarci takes it to an entirely different analytical level that takes it passed perception and into actual scientific data.
The guy raised his hand, and got gently chided for it. His vote was not recorded differently than he had written it down. (I think he hadn't voted at all on that one because he couldn't tell, and then, yes, was doing the bandwagon thing that makes group evaluations notoriously unreliable.)
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2024
- Messages
- 1,038
Agreed. But the consensus could have been trending in the negative direction as well. Except for a couple of exceptions there seems to be positivity all around. Anyways let’s see what he has to say when he gets his player. Hopefully it would be soon.
Last edited:
Agreed.
“3D pop” looked fairly unanimous when only a few people had seen the Strato K. Now that more eyes and blind tests are involved, even the consensus seems to depend on the viewing angle.
And if @Rmarci finds the videos to be marginally improved at best, not at all or maybe worse, but I love what I see does that make me wrong? This is the same thinking that numbers tell the whole story in audio too. I have listened to many systems that are using components that measure flat and find them terrible to listen to. I feel there is always more to the story than just hard analysis.
For Video... and there is what projector, what VP, what screen and who calibrated.
The better the video chain the more you will observe the 'minor details' which can result in a 'much' better picture.
A 10% additional improvement in a video chain which is already dialed in to be perfect is HUGE...
You're using audiophile Ethernet cables. You can safely ignore all objective data and blind test results.
Furnace Inferno
Well-known member
Everyone can have an opinion and opinions can be proven to be wrong. It also depends what the opinion is, someone can say they prefer one thing over another but that’s very different to saying something is better than something else.
I don’t think that Youthman video shows anything other than proving once again being an “enthusiast” doesn’t mean you have any ability to pick out subtle picture quality differences. I’ve been to a few OLED shootouts and I can say for a fact most of the people there have no idea what an accurate image looks like. Just look at any of the yearly TV shoutouts, the ones where they are just compared against each other have different rankings than those compared vs. a mastering panel.
I’m still not convinced there is a big difference but equally I don’t want there to be so I don’t need to buy a K so I’m waiting to see the comparisons to know for sure.
As to your comparison with audio, video is much easier to calibrate to a standard and measure and not be impacted by the room (projector contrast withstanding). Audio has far more variables and a lot more going on than just a simple frequency sweep shows. Also when you say flat do you literally mean flat or just smooth because it’s agreed that something which follows a Harman curve is more accurate to match the sensitivity of our hearing whereas something truly flat across the frequency sounds light on bass and too sharp/shrill?
I am. And guess what? I like it. LOL.
My point was really that empirical measurements don't tell the whole story. They can tell you how close the material might be from reference, but how close YOU can actually get with your own equipment is very different and who's to say I even like reference. The endless pursuit of perfection is really one's own opinion of what they consider perfect.
Right, that's my point. Obviously you know that measurements and blind tests show that audiophile Ethernet cables make no difference. You don't care, and you like it anyway, for reasons that are unrelated to measurements and blind testing.
And so when it comes to the Strato K and the Cinematic format, we're in a situation where it is absolutely certain to be measurably different, because there is literally more data in the signal. The only open question is how significant that is for human perception. It's like 320kbps MP3 vs FLAC -- the objective truth of the situation is that you're getting a measurably better thing, and how much better is just a subjective personal response.
So if you're a person (like me) who is wary of sighted preference tests and unstructured anecdotal reports, you need to look to blind tests to get more information about how noticeable and significant this is.[1] But if your epistemology is such that you put more value on sighted tests and anecdote than blind tests, as seems to be the case... you're golden, man. There's enough sighted anecdotes to make you very comfortable about the merits of this thing. You can relax and enjoy without waiting for more detailed reports to come in.
[1] (Although for me personally, just the fact that it is objectively a higher quality signal was enough to sell me on it. My general operating theory is that if you have a format that's provably better and which at least sometimes falls inside of human perceptibility -- and there are absolutely images where any human could tell the difference between 4:2:0 and 4:4:4 or even 4:2:2 -- there's no point messing around with worrying about how significant the difference is. If I get the worse format, seeing/hearing literally any flaw will make me wonder if it would have been better with the better version, and it's worth it to get rid of that question in my head.)
That´s because a flat measure sounds unfamiliar/unusual/boring to most people not used to it. We always calbibrate towards a flat measure to get a baseline and ensure the system does what it´s supposed to do. But that´s not the calibration people (including me) usually use for watching/listening.
But even if you adjust that flat calibration to your liking with a target/house curve, the changes are still measurable so it´s a controlled adjustmenet and no guesswork.
Last edited:
Furnace Inferno
Well-known member
When it comes to video, everything is very much measurable and well understood so I don’t agree with that idea.
At the end of the day if that is how you want to operate that’s fine, it doesn’t bother me but then you need to accept your opinion is subjective and could be objectively incorrect. To be clear I’m not saying you are wrong, just that what you think is not yet proven.
Objectively it is a higher quality source so it should in theory look better, I’m just waiting to see how visible that difference from comparisons before I decide what to do as I personally think a lot of things are exaggerated good and bad. I did the same when I compared DVD to HD (I Am Legend HD download on Xbox360) and then again with Blu-ray to UHD (Avengers Infinity War using a disc backup, never actually got a UHD player) so it’s not any different to how I have always operated.
Given how much misinformation is easily spread these days I think it’s more important than ever for things to be tested and fact checked. Especially with peoples obsession with asking A.I anything and everything. Whether someone cares about that data or not is another matter.
I agree with the above statement and I would like to believe that others will too. I have asked my Kscape dealer to let me know when he installs a Strato K in his store. I told him I would like to do a blind A/B test in his store to compare the Strato V (which I have) and the Strato K to see if I can really tell the difference. I am hoping I will have the opportunity to do this side by side comparison sometime soon.
MadScientist
I watched the Youthman video and it was pretty much what I expected. Overall it seemed like the differences were subtle at best....most of the "testers" seem to struggle even telling a difference. I am no expert on statistics but I think a sample size of 3 movies is probably not ideal. Only one was animated ...which to me is where one should notice a difference....perhaps more animated samples would have been good to have.
Personally, i think with the Strato K and specifically C4k we are in the realm of diminishing returns....measured -vs- perceived. This happens across the entire hobby. But there are too many variables...equipment, chain, hell even how good those testers eyesight were. I know if I were one of those blind testers...with my ever deteriorating eyesight I probably either would have gotten most "wrong" or struggle to notice any difference.
Even reading between the lines of all the positive feedback posts on this forum ...it seems like at best its 5-10% improvement...and then only sometimes. To some $5k for that is no issue...for others it is.
I am still undecided on getting a K....most likely I will just let warranty run out on the V and then decide what to get....who knows what will be avail then...or even if I want to stay with Kaleidescape.
Personally, i think with the Strato K and specifically C4k we are in the realm of diminishing returns....measured -vs- perceived. This happens across the entire hobby. But there are too many variables...equipment, chain, hell even how good those testers eyesight were. I know if I were one of those blind testers...with my ever deteriorating eyesight I probably either would have gotten most "wrong" or struggle to notice any difference.
Even reading between the lines of all the positive feedback posts on this forum ...it seems like at best its 5-10% improvement...and then only sometimes. To some $5k for that is no issue...for others it is.
I am still undecided on getting a K....most likely I will just let warranty run out on the V and then decide what to get....who knows what will be avail then...or even if I want to stay with Kaleidescape.
I would very much like to be able to witness a comparison...ideally with a chain/display close to mine. Honestly, while I have lived in the same place my entire life...I have become more and more of hermit so really have no idea what if any good dealers are in my area. All I know there is a Best Buy around every corner which is the last place I would goto for demo or testing.
This reads to be a targeted quote to make a targeted point using me as a scapegoat. Which if so, I obviously don't appreciate.
I'm not sure what about my showing people and Youthman showing people these different formats blindly and asking what they see makes one constitute a valid test and the other dismissible as opinion. My family had no idea what they were seeing, what any difference should be, and no care about what the outcome might be to the question.
I've never oversold this in any of my posts or content nor to any customer. My home and demo systems are readily available for people to come by and see for themselves.
I find a difference as the large majority of owners posting here mention, and I'm totally happy with it regardless of the absolute magnitude. I embrace having a higher objective fidelity of content for home theater after all the time, effort, and expense I put into it.
Adding some context for people who may not have watched "Youthmans" video and may be inclined to place reliance to it instead of viewing themselves.
1. Results are based on Projector viewing. Most of the people noting improvements have high end TVs (or OLEDs).
2. Some sort of processed Dolby Vision was applied instead of native DV in TV.
3. Half of people acknowledged having eyesight issues (including Youthman if I remember correctly)
4. It is not clear what setup was exactly used for evaluation and what setup individuals have at home that they compared against
5. One person who got everything right seemed to have similar setup at home.
1. Results are based on Projector viewing. Most of the people noting improvements have high end TVs (or OLEDs).
2. Some sort of processed Dolby Vision was applied instead of native DV in TV.
3. Half of people acknowledged having eyesight issues (including Youthman if I remember correctly)
4. It is not clear what setup was exactly used for evaluation and what setup individuals have at home that they compared against
5. One person who got everything right seemed to have similar setup at home.
This is a good point, IMO, as it gets to the core of this discussion. Also per @mkozlows recent post as well. Kaleidescape has delivered objectively the highest video fidelity available (which I hope @Rmarci analysis corroborates). This alone is enough for some people, including me. I've been on this platform for close to a decade and enjoyed it immensely all that time, long before I started selling it ~2 years ago.
How much of that difference each person perceives and how substantial the price tag is on your wallet are individual concerns. If the cost load is heavy, you're probably not going to get what you need from reading subjective takes. You should probably get a direct demo.