NEWS: Strato K Movie Player with 8K capability and new "4K Cinematic" full-chroma & higher bitrate support

[joey_corleone]

My gut feel for now is that my TCL QM9K (as far as I know) cannot handle the native 4:4:4 HDR10 copy without turning off modes/processing. AI research seems to agree, but is vague. So, I've been opting for DV 4:2:2 even though my theater is technically my primary Kscape experience area. I'll just trust the DV -> HDR10 output of the K (knowing the point release that improves it is coming) and hope the ~12-bit depth is more valuable than the native 4:4:4.

Makes sense. I also used AI and asked for actual credible sources, as sometimes it confidently gives you garbage.

So far, I’ve been very impressed with the 4k cinematic DV movies I have watched and the conversion to HDR10 has been flawless

 

[wilson]

I would trust MadVR to do any DV to HDR conversion more than the Strato K. It seems the only reason to prefer DV is if you’re feeding a display directly that is DV capable. With all the file options, it’s going to take some downloading of multiple versions (SDR, HDR, DV) to try on specific setups to decide what looks/works best.

I assume MadVR is using LLDV like the Lumagen does? With my Lumagen, Crime 101 has raised black (easiest to see in beginning and end credits) in both LLDV and HDR mode. To verify, I connected the Strato K to my Sony OLED and there's no gray background behind the credit rolls. I guess it's always possible that my Lumagen and/or PJ are calibrated incorrectly.

--wilson

 

[todo]

Well it seems like there are good arguments to be made for 4k cinematic HDR10 and DV

With HDR10 you are getting the full 4:4:4 chroma but 10-bit color

With DV you get 4:2:2 chroma but 12-bit color

I think the MadVR is mostly not relevant because your Strato K will convert the DV to HDR10 in hardware before it goes to the Envy.

In my case, I have a theater that doesn’t support DV and a TV that does, so to me it comes down more to what gets the priority. For me, that is my theater room.

You also have to consider some displays will compress the 4:4:4 chroma down to 4:2:2 internally for processing. From what I can find so far, the JVC NZ series projectors process 4:4:4 natively, but my LG C1 compresses 4:4:4 to 4:2:2 for processing. Since my theater is the priority, my choice right now is HDR10 but I am actively researching

I’m very interested to hear others’ perspective on similar situations

In my use case Strato K - Lumagen 5348 which can do 4:2:2 Chroma Max and handles LLDV or HDR - Christie Projector which can do 4:4:4 all day long - the best 'technical' solution is DV from Strato K which will be 4:2:2 and 12 Bit to Lumagen to PJ.
And incidentally, I prefer the way DV looks versus HDR 10 so it is my preferred way to watch.

 

[Darthbishop79]

In my use case Strato K - Lumagen 5348 which can do 4:2:2 Chroma Max and handles LLDV or HDR - Christie Projector which can do 4:4:4 all day long - the best 'technical' solution is DV from Strato K which will be 4:2:2 and 12 Bit to Lumagen to PJ.
And incidentally, I prefer the way DV looks versus HDR 10 so it is my preferred way to watch.

But the LLDV is flawed on the Lumagen. Even the Lumagen founder Jim Peterson has said as much. I own the same model LRP as you. One movie that showed me how bad LLDV is is The Matrix.

Go to the scene where Neo and Morpheus are having their fight inside the simulated dojo. The skin tones on Neo push more magenta with LLDV. When I change it back to HDR only skin tones are back to normal and push more towards green. I’ve disabled LLDV ever since I notice this.

 

[Golfx]

My gut feel for now is that my TCL QM9K (as far as I know) cannot handle the native 4:4:4 HDR10 copy without turning off modes/processing. AI research seems to agree, but is vague. So, I've been opting for DV 4:2:2 even though my theater is technically my primary Kscape experience area. I'll just trust the DV -> HDR10 output of the K (knowing the point release that improves it is coming) and hope the ~12-bit depth is more valuable than the native 4:4:4.

While watching a 422 movie on my K my LG G4 allows me to enable passthrough 444. It has an obvious screen change. But then while restarting the DV cinematic 422 I did not notice any difference is detail or quality. Curiously, even after the 444 passthrough was enabled I still saw “dolby vision” sign as well as filmmaker on the screen. So I wonder if the DV just overrules the 444 passthough.

 

[kristenmarie]

But the LLDV is flawed on the Lumagen. Even the Lumagen founder Jim Peterson has said as much. I own the same model LRP as you. One movie that showed me how bad LLDV is is The Matrix.

Go to the scene where Neo and Morpheus are having their fight inside the simulated dojo. The skin tones on Neo push more magenta with LLDV. When I change it back to HDR only skin tones are back to normal and push more towards green. I’ve disabled LLDV ever since I notice this.

Installed my Strato K a few weeks back, I also have a Lumagen 5348 with LLDV enabled, and have been evaluating different Cinematic 4K titles and formats (DV and HDR10). Impressions on the Strato K's abilities overall have been very positive - fine details are greatly improved (especially busy fabrics and facial details) due to the better chroma subsampling, and there is greater smoothness in gradients and highly transient scenes due to the higher bitrates.

I haven't noticed color shifts in LLDV vs HDR10 via the Lumagen, though that could be possible, but it does feel like there is somewhat of a different gamma response going on - LLDV seems both darker in dark scenes and brighter in bright scenes, which could indicate higher gammas (I've calibrated to 2.35). I would be curious if anyone on the forum could share their results with newer Lumagen Artisan 8K with the Strato K and any noted differences between 4:2:2 and 4:4:4. I may try this by bypassing the Lumagen to see if that provides additional improvement, but overall I've been very impressed with the quality improvements brought about by the additional chroma resolution and improved bitrates on the Strato K and the Cinematic 4K encoding.

 

[todo]

Don't want to get into a debate here but DV has higher Bit Depth (Almost 12 Bit) and HDR max is 10 Bit - my understanding is that bit rate is more critical than Chroma.
And the 5348 cannot do 4:4:4 Chroma anyway.. but the Artisan Can (and your display should be capable of 4:4:4 also). Also DV maxes out at 4:2:2...
I prefer the way Dolby encodes DV and thats a personal choice and my preference on the look of the picture.
I will receive my K on Tuesday - same day as Disclosure Day Release ..... K - 5348 - Christie PJ is my video chain will be playing DV Cinematic LLDV on the Lumagen - I will report back once I have it going, super excited.

 

[dinom]

Lumagen Artisan 8K is not released yet.

 

[kristenmarie]

Don't want to get into a debate here but DV has higher Bit Rate (Almost 12 Bit) and HDR max is 10 Bit - my understanding is that bit rate is more critical than Chroma.
And the 5348 cannot do 4:4:4 Chroma anyway.. but the Artisan Can (and your display should be capable of 4:4:4 also). Also DV maxes out at 4:2:2...
I prefer the way Dolby encodes DV and thats a personal choice and my preference on the look of the picture.
I will receive my K on Tuesday - same day as Disclosure Day Release ..... K - 5348 - Christie PJ is my video chain will be playing DV Cinematic LLDV on the Lumagen - I will report back once I have it going, super excited.

I think you meant bit depth here, and the ~11.5 bits that DV provides is definitely an improvement over HDR10's 10-bits per color, possibly reducing color banding but 10-bit (30-bit) color is generally very good already. However, I do believe that the differences between 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 will provide an equal improvement over finer details (at 4:4:4 there is no color smear and full color resolution), equal to the change from 4:2:0 to 4:2:2, provided the Cinematic 4K comes from a 4:4:4 source. Are there any titles which are confirmed as coming from 4:4:4 mezzanine sources (other than the reference that perhaps 80% of HDR content is available in 4:4:4)?

 

[todo]

I think you meant bit depth here, and the ~11.5 bits that DV provides is definitely an improvement over HDR10's 10-bits per color, possibly reducing color banding but 10-bit (30-bit) color is generally very good already. However, I do believe that the differences between 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 will provide an equal improvement over finer details (at 4:4:4 there is no color smear and full color resolution), equal to the change from 4:2:0 to 4:2:2, provided the Cinematic 4K comes from a 4:4:4 source. Are there any titles which are confirmed as coming from 4:4:4 mezzanine sources (other than the reference that perhaps 80% of HDR content is available in 4:4:4)?

The 5348 cannot play 4:4:4 so if you feed it 4:4:4 it will process it down to 4:2:2 which I understand is not reccomended.
So best to feed in DV which is 4:2:2 (and you get higher bit depth also).
I understand all HDR Cinematic Movies available on K Store are 4:4:4 (except a handful or less).
Playing 4:4:4 HDR will be fun when I get my Artisan which is months away.

 

[razer]

Question for Strato K owners. Does the K use the same remote control as the Strato V? Thanks.

 

[Balthazar2k4]

Question for Strato K owners. Does the K use the same remote control as the Strato V? Thanks.

Yes and no. The remote changed with the E, but the V remote should still work.

 

[Imakeller]

Question for Strato K owners. Does the K use the same remote control as the Strato V? Thanks.

Yes.

 

[Broncowrangler]

Question for Strato K owners. Does the K use the same remote control as the Strato V? Thanks.

Yes, but if you have both players in the same vicinity, use the Kscape app to power on the specific player or both players will power on if you use the physical remote. Lol. Learnt it the hard way..

Once you have powered it on with the app you can use the physical remote subsequently.

 

[111-JEDI]

An updated Batman Begins 4K_C DV encode is now available that fixes the black levels. They look proper (as good as they get for that title anyway) and the letterboxes stay dead black now. I let support know that it's a good fix and reminded them to hit up Blade Runner 2049 (and maybe review anything else from Warner Bros that shares the same DV encode recipe).

Thanks! Just checking to see if Kaleidescape updated Blade Runner 2049 4K_C DV

 

[MikeKobb]

Thanks! Just checking to see if Kaleidescape updated Blade Runner 2049 4K_C DV

I know this is a known issue, but I believe it's still in the works.

 

[kristenmarie]

The 5348 cannot play 4:4:4 so if you feed it 4:4:4 it will process it down to 4:2:2 which I understand is not reccomended.
So best to feed in DV which is 4:2:2 (and you get higher bit depth also).
I understand all HDR Cinematic Movies available on K Store are 4:4:4 (except a handful or less).
Playing 4:4:4 HDR will be fun when I get my Artisan which is months away.

Thanks @todo - yes, understood, that was the reason why I was initially asking about the Lumagen Artisan 8K, but it sounds like that's not quite available yet. I can still test by bypassing the Lumagen 5348 and go direct to my audio processor (Trinnov Altitude 16), and from there out to the display. I have an older Trinnov but upgraded it last year to the newer HDMI 2.1 input card (and DACs, which is a separate story, but that's been a great upgrade in terms of sound quality).

So long story short, still would love to know if there are any known Cinematic 4K HDR10 titles which are known to have been derived from 4:4:4 mezzanine files so I can see the differences from 4:2:2.

 

[OUTATIME]

Thanks @todo - yes, understood, that was the reason why I was initially asking about the Lumagen Artisan 8K, but it sounds like that's not quite available yet. I can still test by bypassing the Lumagen 5348 and go direct to my audio processor (Trinnov Altitude 16), and from there out to the display. I have an older Trinnov but upgraded it last year to the newer HDMI 2.1 input card (and DACs, which is a separate story, but that's been a great upgrade in terms of sound quality).

So long story short, still would love to know if there are any known Cinematic 4K HDR10 titles which are known to have been derived from 4:4:4 mezzanine files so I can see the differences from 4:2:2.

Here was the list as of a few days ago: 4K Cinematic titles with 4:4:4 chroma sampling

 

[kristenmarie]

Here was the list as of a few days ago: 4K Cinematic titles with 4:4:4 chroma sampling

Many thanks @OUTATIME !

 

[rafaelsmith]

I had a question/thought I was hoping someone could clarify...I admit I really have no clue if my thinking/assumptions are correct but:

Given a chain of Strato V -> Cinema 30 AVR -> RS1100. Currently 4k HDR files from K have source of 4:2:0....which the V is upsampling to 4:2:2?

If switching to a Strato K...and assuming playing a 4k Cinematic 4:4:4 sourced file it would then be the Strato K outputing a 4:4:4 signal which then the JVC will internally downsample to 4:2:2?

So I would be swapping upsampling by the player to downsampling by the JVC? If all that is true then in the end which is better? I have no clue if modern hardware like a Strato and AVR are better at upsampling a "lesser" source-vs- a display downsampling a "greater" source?

If I am totally confused let me know

BTW: I recommend not asking any of these Strato K type question to AI....man on man it just spits out total BS...it even thinks the Strato K has two HDMI outputs and does not do DV....lol