NEWS: Strato K Movie Player with 8K capability and new "4K Cinematic" full-chroma & higher bitrate support

[cinelife]

Reasonable minds can differ on the degree of improvement we are seeing with the K, or on the reasons we see what we see, but the K does deliver an improvement. When I played back scenes from 5 movies in both 4K HDR on a C, and the new 4K Cinematic on a K, for several non-AV related neighbors and friends, each at different times, in every case for every movie, they individually picked the content played back on the K. There was no "I think....," with their choice, there was no hedging, it was clear they favored the K content.

As usual, no matter what owners post regarding what they are seeing, there will always be the non-owners that put down their comments, challenge their beliefs, call it a placebo effect, call dealers biased, blame FOMO, etc., etc., all while they haven't even seen the product. But there are other non-owners that are just waiting for more technical info before making a decision. For those that need to examine the content from a technical numbers standpoint, go for it, post your findings, there's nothing wrong with that, it's part of the hobby as well, and also brings value to people that need that info before they make a decision.

The rest of us K owners, including us "biased" dealers , will continue to experience the improvements we see with our own eyes, whether that improvement is judged to be 1% or 10% as a simple subjective measurement, it's still an improvement, it's what we look for in this hobby.

Is the K player some major breakthrough that requires owners to sell off their current Strato player(s) to purchase a K, no, of course not, but it does add another level of quality to our systems by providing access to the 4K Cinematic content, and to my eyes improves other content as well, I'm still very satisfied with the other Strato players I own. I have two C's for sale, but those were for sale long before the K was announced, I'm keeping my other C's that support other displays.

I'm not aiming this comment at anyone, it's a general comment, and I don't disagree with those wanting to hear from those more technically skilled than the average owner. There is no reason for us disrespect each others decisions.

Jim

 

[FURY]

Tempering…

Shouldn't a dun that...One of his tells is what he originally posted and "anyways," which make it more likely than not that he isn't being ai'd...

Keep at it Kris!!

Thank you very much

FURY

 

[Spooky]

Shouldn't a dun that...One of his tells is what he originally posted and "anyways," which make it more likely than not that he isn't being ai'd...

Keep at it Kris!!

Thank you very much

FURY

I don’t think anyone would have thought for one second that AI was involved, even if he had spelt that word correctly.

 

[Golfx]

No, but I was clearly not on the BOD at your house when you decided to spend thousands of dollars on a purchase before knowing anything objective about it. That's not the way I ran my business nor is it how I decide on personal purchases whether $5K or $5MM.

And you are incorrect, sometimes I don't enjoy my purchases especially when I violate my rule of evaluating the product before making a decision. I try to avoid buying totally on emotion.

Why are some K buyers so defensive of their decision to purchase? I'm simply stating a contrary view but some people feel personally attacked when others question their decisions. Why not wait until the bugs are worked out or until another more complete version (more options) is released? It's not going away. You can still buy it this fall. What the rush? FOMO?

I've taken the anti-FOMO vaccine otherwise known as the "delayed gratification" infusion. You should consider it, as it works better than the COVID vaccines with fewer side effects.

To each his own.

So there are happy new owners enjoying their products. Bonding with one another on their observations. And then you, for some insecure reason, decide you need to throw water on their happiness.

I do not need nor want your negative logic to shape my decisions. This is an owners forum for kscape. Likely, we have already decided we want the best available kscape for our HT systems. Of course we understand measurements and their use in competitive purchasing. But we also have the available funds and desire to be early adopters.

 

[Imakeller]

No, but I was clearly not on the BOD at your house when you decided to spend thousands of dollars on a purchase before knowing anything objective about it. That's not the way I ran my business nor is it how I decide on personal purchases whether $5K or $5MM.

And you are incorrect, sometimes I don't enjoy my purchases especially when I violate my rule of evaluating the product before making a decision. I try to avoid buying totally on emotion.

Why are some K buyers so defensive of their decision to purchase? I'm simply stating a contrary view but some people feel personally attacked when others question their decisions. Why not wait until the bugs are worked out or until another more complete version (more options) is released? It's not going away. You can still buy it this fall. What the rush? FOMO?

I've taken the anti-FOMO vaccine otherwise known as the "delayed gratification" infusion. You should consider it, as it works better than the COVID vaccines with fewer side effects.

To each his own.

I think when @Golfx replied to your comment about why K-scape wasn’t more focused on encoding QA, he was making a tongue-in-cheek comment that K-scape is a hardware-focused company because that’s how the BOD have decided to “butter-their-bread.” A valid point, but if the files aren’t meeting high standards then hardware sales will suffer, so I’d say both are important, and K-scape is delivering on both.

As far as taking a “wait-and-see” stance on 4K Cinematic, nothing wrong with that. However, I’m only aware of two “bugs” with the Strato K — some 2.1 interoperability issues; and some reports of player conversions of DV to HDR10 are a bit overly bright. I’m sure K-scape will address these soon. Also, the early post-launch audible to include HDR 4:4:4 versions if available, was a terrific decision.

As far as waiting for the next player that will be better than the Strato K, sure, there will be another flagship player at some point. Is it worth skipping the K to wait for it? Not to me, but opinions may differ. The 4K Cinematic and 8K files are really getting close to “end of the rainbow” stuff IMHO. There’s not much further they can reasonably go, so the Strato K is a meaningful and safe jump. Maybe they’ll get to native 12-bit instead of 10-bit, but not worth the “delayed gratification” to me.

 

[josh]

Let’s stick to the topic and avoid insults and personal criticisms. It’s about time to close this mega thread “announcement” (news) thread so individual topics can be posted separately. And makes it easier for @cinelife and me to moderate this and keep things organized and civil.

 

[Trevor]

I've watched quite a bit of cinematic content and after spending some time I've got to point out that improvements across titles are highly variable. Obviously, nothing is ever worse than legacy encodes...that's a given. The cinematic format gets us closer to the mezzanine file but sometimes, when the mezzanine file isn't of particularly high fidelity, the legacy presentation already approximated the source rather well. With a title like that the cinematic version is not going to be a relative stunner compared to the legacy encode...there's just nothing additional there to resolve. The best it's ever looked? Sure...by a bit. Jaw on the floor? Not quite. Examples I've seen are the Star Wars Prequels, Captain America: The First Avenger, Hunger Games: Catching Fire, and (lesser so (IE a bit better the others)) the original Star Wars Trilogy. A bit more perceived motion resolution (this seems to be a small yet consistent improvement), a hair more stability in crazy (difficult to compress) scenes, maybe/theoretically a bit more color delineation (the jury is out on that one).

Now if the original mezzanine is exceptional, you're going to see that passed through for the first time in the Cinematic encode. Jaw droppers I've seen so far are John Wick Chapter 2 (the only one I've checked out admittedly), Rogue One, The Parent Trap (1961), and (lesser so) Mad Max: Fury Road. I'm sure there are more but these are the ones that had me and the wife saying, "that looks soooooo good..." on the regular.

So point is, if you're attempting to evaluate or demo a K don't just download one early-2010's movie shot on older digital cameras and draw your conclusions based on that alone. That's like evaluating a high-end DAC and headphone amp combo using a brick walled Red Hot Chili Peppers CD.

To state it another way...with legacy encodes and hardware:
Exceptional source = Great output
Great source = Great output
Good source = Good output

With the K and Cinematic:
Exceptional source = Exceptional output (+)
Great source = Great output (+)
Good source = Good output (+)

Do you need it? Probably not unless you're a discerning pixel peeper who wants the best. As much as KScape owners are a niche I have to say that this might be a niche within a niche. The value of viewing those exceptional titles at near full tilt boogie is your personal call.

 

[lujan]

I think when @Golfx replied to your comment about why K-scape wasn’t more focused on encoding QA, he was making a tongue-in-cheek comment that K-scape is a hardware-focused company because that’s how the BOD have decided to “butter-their-bread.” A valid point, but if the files aren’t meeting high standards then hardware sales will suffer, so I’d say both are important, and K-scape is delivering on both.

As far as taking a “wait-and-see” stance on 4K Cinematic, nothing wrong with that. However, I’m only aware of two “bugs” with the Strato K — some 2.1 interoperability issues; and some reports of player conversions of DV to HDR10 are a bit overly bright. I’m sure K-scape will address these soon. Also, the early post-launch audible to include HDR 4:4:4 versions if available, was a terrific decision.

As far as waiting for the next player that will be better than the Strato K, sure, there will be another flagship player at some point. Is it worth skipping the K to wait for it? Not to me, but opinions may differ. The 4K Cinematic and 8K files are really getting close to “end of the rainbow” stuff IMHO. There’s not much further they can reasonably go, so the Strato K is a meaningful and safe jump. Maybe they’ll get to native 12-bit instead of 10-bit, but not worth the “delayed gratification” to me.

I'm aware of one more issue. It appears that the Strato K is reporting the wrong HDR metadata or this is the brightest movie I've ever seen:

 

[mkozlows]

Now if the original mezzanine is exceptional, you're going to see that passed through for the first time in the Cinematic encode. Jaw droppers I've seen so far are John Wick Chapter 2 (the only one I've checked out admittedly), Rogue One, The Parent Trap (1961), and (lesser so) Mad Max: Fury Road. I'm sure there are more but these are the ones that had me and the wife saying, "that looks soooooo good..." on the regular.

Some of those surprise me. Both John Wick and Fury Road have 2K DIs; their UHD releases are upscaled from that and should already be technically unimpressive compared to native 4K (or 4K scans of film), as 1080p is basically all the real resolution that's in the master. Going up to a 4:2:2 chroma is just moving the chroma upscaling from display-time to master-time.

 

[kscape360]

My experience has matched @Trevor. The level of upgrade is title dependent, but when the file has the info to give, the Cinematic format is a noticeably superior image to regular 4K. I’m eager to see a more detailed comparisons based on bitrates and screen caps once more reviewers get copies, but for now the subjective portion is, for me, settled: it’s an improvement over 4K. I can’t say if that’s being driven primarily by chroma or larger file sizes, but it’s obvious on many titles. I’ve now looked at about 15 or so more titles since doing my initial comparisons the Strato K. One of the most impressive upgrades I’ve noticed recently has been with Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Rings. Compare when we first meet Frodo in the lush greenery of the shire on the 4K DV Cinematic to the regular 4K DV disc: it’s just a cleaner, more precise image that makes the scene more impressive. This is such a long movie that it needs that extra space, even given the resolution limitations of the way it was finished.

As for the small technical glitches, Batman Begins has already been fixed with others in process, they are adding HDR10 files to every title only on DV previously, and have been adding titles very quickly to the store in the new format. My only complaint is really with Sony titles only getting SDR on some releases like Bram Stoker’s Dracula and Run Lola Run when the regular 4K has HDR available. I do not know the reason for this, but it is very disappointing. I still think it’s ridiculous that Lawrence of Arabia is only in 4K SDR when the disc and other digital stores have had DV for more than half a decade already. If a customer cares enough to upgrade to the Strato K, this is obviously the market that wants every high quality version of a title available.

 

[Steve Bruzonsky]

I was telling the majority of my clients to skip the E/V depending on their situation as I honestly wasn't a fan from the get go and felt the C was the better player so long as they had plans to get external storage (Terra) at some point. I stand by that position even today. Only reason to get a V/E over a C is if you absolutely need DV (which most don't, but you know, FOMO is a mother) or they had zero plans to ever buy a Terra in the future. No video bugs, no compatibility issues, dual HDMI outputs and a full 4K interface. The hype train on the V/E was insane and I never understood it. Would have been WAY WAY WAY easier for me to just do the typical rah rah rah stuff you see from all the influencers and such and just tried to get people to buy buy buy. Anyone that knows me knows I don't do that at all. I try everything possible to be as honest and straightforward as possible, even when it costs me sales.

But Kris, you are not an "Influencer". You setup and calibrate displays professionally - you have a technical background and expertise to go along with your years of experience calibrating and setting up displays. There's a difference!

 

[LoveCinema]

I still think it’s ridiculous that Lawrence of Arabia is only in 4K SDR when the disc and other digital stores have had DV for more than half a decade already. If a customer cares enough to upgrade to the Strato K, this is obviously the market that wants every high quality version of a title available.

This. I fully appreciate the Strato K and everything it's bringing to the market. It's quite likely I will end up with one. However, I'm currently imagining that any improvement will be in the 5% area and could be eclipsed by other pending efforts like a bigger screen and processor.

But, you know what's more than a 5% improvement? Licensing updated assets from studios. King Kong (1976) which recently saw its second physical 4K UHD Blu-ray release due to popularity is currently on the K Store's home page in SD. Yup, SD. More than a decade (?) after it was available digitally in HD and more than two years after it was released digitally in 4K Dolby Vision. There are literally THOUSANDS of cases like this.

I fully appreciate that K has to pick where they spend their money, and I realize that selling a lot of new Strato K players and the same 100+ titles to new owners will generate the most funds. I get it, I'm not saying they're wrong. I'm just over here hoping that we'll finally see more of those funds pouring into the content offerings of the K Store, and not just an extra new release each week but actually going back and patching the many holes users have long identified.

 

[KDeering]

But Kris, you are not an "Influencer". You setup and calibrate displays professionally - you have a technical background and expertise to go along with your years of experience calibrating and setting up displays. There's a difference!

I get it, though many people have categorized me in that before. I am just saying that things in general would be a lot easier for me if I subscribed to that "everything is awesome" way of doing things.

On another note. After doing some more testing, I am not having the issue with DV titles being converted to HDR10 being overbrightened. I am definitely seeing where the metadata is wrong, but this appears to be an issue with some titles and not others for some reason. In many cases the Strato K is reporting all 0's for some titles. For example, I was testing today and comparing the DV Cinematic vs the standard HDR10 of Cars. If I played the HDR10 version the metadata was way off, but the processor I use ignores that (it just reports it) for the tone mapping. The DV Cinematic did not appear brighter (at some point I may measure) but it was definitely better than the HDR10. The HDR10 looks a bit washed out in comparison and black levels are not as good. This was readily apparent in the Tractor Tipping sequence but also a few others. One of the early chapters starts with the traffic signal blinking at night. The HDR10 version is noticeably raised compared to the DV Cinematic.

I also saw better contrast and deeper color with Moana. If I play back the standard HDR10 version, the metadata is all 0's on this title. The DV Cinematic looks richer in the opening sequence with Maui going to steal the heart. Blacks are a bit deeper and colors look richer.

Other comparisons haven't been as noticeable so far, but I've only been testing for a few days. I have found a few other bugs that I've reported to Kscape though. The weirdest one has to do with the main menu. Occasionally when I stop a movie and go back to the main cover art menu (the movie cover art wall if you use a Terra), the background of movies is scrolling constantly to the side and never stops until the movie you exited is reached in the library. Very bizarre, but it has happened a few times now. I captured a video of it and sent it to K.

I will report more as I do more testing. But I think displays that use metadata for any type of HDR processing are going to have issues with the output of this player with a lot of content.

 

[Trevor]

Some of those surprise me. Both John Wick and Fury Road have 2K DIs; their UHD releases are upscaled from that and should already be technically unimpressive compared to native 4K (or 4K scans of film), as 1080p is basically all the real resolution that's in the master. Going up to a 4:2:2 chroma is just moving the chroma upscaling from display-time to master-time.

I'm just as surprised as you are. I was actually looking for some correlation between DI's and what I'm seeing but I can't explain why those (and other 2K DI) titles look so good. To be clear though...Fury Road's improvements are less about resolution and more about everything else. Additionally, it's the weakest of the strong titles I listed.

 

[Spooky]

I get it, though many people have categorized me in that before. I am just saying that things in general would be a lot easier for me if I subscribed to that "everything is awesome" way of doing things.

On another note. After doing some more testing, I am not having the issue with DV titles being converted to HDR10 being overbrightened. I am definitely seeing where the metadata is wrong, but this appears to be an issue with some titles and not others for some reason. In many cases the Strato K is reporting all 0's for some titles. For example, I was testing today and comparing the DV Cinematic vs the standard HDR10 of Cars. If I played the HDR10 version the metadata was way off, but the processor I use ignores that (it just reports it) for the tone mapping. The DV Cinematic did not appear brighter (at some point I may measure) but it was definitely better than the HDR10. The HDR10 looks a bit washed out in comparison and black levels are not as good. This was readily apparent in the Tractor Tipping sequence but also a few others. One of the early chapters starts with the traffic signal blinking at night. The HDR10 version is noticeably raised compared to the DV Cinematic.

I also saw better contrast and deeper color with Moana. If I play back the standard HDR10 version, the metadata is all 0's on this title. The DV Cinematic looks richer in the opening sequence with Maui going to steal the heart. Blacks are a bit deeper and colors look richer.

Other comparisons haven't been as noticeable so far, but I've only been testing for a few days. I have found a few other bugs that I've reported to Kscape though. The weirdest one has to do with the main menu. Occasionally when I stop a movie and go back to the main cover art menu (the movie cover art wall if you use a Terra), the background of movies is scrolling constantly to the side and never stops until the movie you exited is reached in the library. Very bizarre, but it has happened a few times now. I captured a video of it and sent it to K.

I will report more as I do more testing. But I think displays that use metadata for any type of HDR processing are going to have issues with the output of this player with a lot of content.

what was the equipment chain that you were using?

 

[KDeering]

what was the equipment chain that you were using?

Right now with this testing I am using a Strato K that is going through a Lumagen to a NZ900 projector.

 

[txfeinbergs]

Okay, I am eligible for the K. I scored a 0:

Score:​

• Gender Male
• Select Age Range 50 - 59
• Best Score for your Gender -2147483648
• Worst Score for your Gender 2147483647

 

[txfeinbergs]

I fully expect to read that my laundry has better colors when I did the wash while using the K.

That only works if you put the K in the washing machine with the laundry.

 

[Rmarci]

I am not having the issue with DV titles being converted to HDR10 being overbrightened.

Right now with this testing I am using a Strato K that is going through a Lumagen to a NZ900 projector.

Yes, you are getting this issue; everybody does. My captures are unquestionable and show exactly what the player outputs during the conversion, unless the K uses a different method than the E, which is very unlikely.

And it is not a slight over-brightening; it is a major issue. For example, in Eraser, some shots are natively 1000 nits, but the player artificially boosts them to 4000 nits.

Then you have your display, a low-nit projector, so of course the difference will be smaller. But in reality, your player is incorrectly outputting a 4000-nit image and tone-mapping it to whatever brightness your display is capable of, instead of starting from the native 1000-nit image.

Converting DV5 to HDR10 is a simple operation and should in no way alter the dynamic range. We've had open-source algorithms (libplacebo) that have been doing this flawlessly for years. The fact that Kscape missed that issue, and worse, even called it an improvement in the firmware notes, is hilarious. At the same time, they didn't even mention the major fix for the block artifacts, which is far more important and affected practically every movie with bright white scenes.

 

[Rmarci]

Then you have your display, a low-nit projector, so of course the difference will be smaller. But in reality, your player is incorrectly outputting a 4000-nit image and tone-mapping it to whatever brightness your display is capable of, instead of starting from the native 1000-nit image.

Obviously, I meant the Lumagen, or whatever video processor someone uses for tone mapping. Not the player...

Also, when comparing the new 4:4:4/4:2:2 releases with the older 4:2:0 releases, people have to keep in mind that about half of the older catalog is flawed, with color inaccuracies (green or red push), poor compression, and the strongest DNR I've ever seen. So, of course, these new high-bitrate encodes will look better, thanks to Kaleidescape's latest compression improvements and much better quality control.