NEWS: Strato K Movie Player with 8K capability and new "4K Cinematic" full-chroma & higher bitrate support

[KDeering]

With a chain of equipment that can manage 4.4.4 and 8K (sort of) and a large screen, I am curious to see what the cinematic files can bring.

The Kscape content that is 8K will not be 444, it will be 420. Granted, 8K 420 is already starting with more chroma information than 4K 420 anyways.

I've said this a few times already but I cannot stress enough how people REALLY shouldn't get to worked up about 422 or 444. No matter what you are starting with more information than we had before, but we are also not very sensitive to chroma resolution in the first place. The difference between raw and upscaled chroma is likely slight at best, but I will always take more resolution to begin with as anything in the pipeline of your video chain that is doing any type of processing is always taking something away (never a free lunch), so better to start with more. I think the bit rate could help with more demanding titles, but I also think it would be more in line with worst case scenarios.

I am stoked that Kscape is offering something that is objectively better video than you can get anywhere else. I just hope people keep their expectations a bit in check and not fall for the trap of FOMO or overly gushing hype that is likely unwarranted.

 

[Golfx]

The Kscape content that is 8K will not be 444, it will be 420. Granted, 8K 420 is already starting with more chroma information than 4K 420 anyways.

I've said this a few times already but I cannot stress enough how people REALLY shouldn't get to worked up about 422 or 444. No matter what you are starting with more information than we had before, but we are also not very sensitive to chroma resolution in the first place. The difference between raw and upscaled chroma is likely slight at best, but I will always take more resolution to begin with as anything in the pipeline of your video chain that is doing any type of processing is always taking something away (never a free lunch), so better to start with more. I think the bit rate could help with more demanding titles, but I also think it would be more in line with worst case scenarios.

I am stoked that Kscape is offering something that is objectively better video than you can get anywhere else. I just hope people keep their expectations a bit in check and not fall for the trap of FOMO or overly gushing hype that is likely unwarranted.

Buzz kill

 

[KDeering]

Buzz kill

LOL. Not trying to be buzz kill at all. Again, this is without a doubt objectively the best video you can source for home video. So if you want the best, this is definitely it. I just want people to understand that they may want to get their expectations under control because we are already in the quality of video that improvements are going to be subtle anyways because it is already that good. Chroma resolution is always going to be subtle at best, this is why we have the compression we do. And bitrate increase only helps if there was a need for more of it to begin with, so like I said, content that was struggling with the bandwidth available.

 

[lujan]

LOL. Not trying to be buzz kill at all. Again, this is without a doubt objectively the best video you can source for home video. So if you want the best, this is definitely it. I just want people to understand that they may want to get their expectations under control because we are already in the quality of video that improvements are going to be subtle anyways because it is already that good. Chroma resolution is always going to be subtle at best, this is why we have the compression we do. And bitrate increase only helps if there was a need for more of it to begin with, so like I said, content that was struggling with the bandwidth available.

This is true. Personally, I did notice a huge difference when I went from 2K to 4K on the video quality but not nearly as much going from 4K to 8K. The subtle differences can be seen on things like "blades of grass" and more intricate detail like that. I remember a few years ago being at Best Buy and the salesperson had two TVs right next to each other (one 4K and the other 8K). You could see the difference side-by-side on details like that.

 

[KDeering]

This is true. Personally, I did notice a huge difference when I went from 2K to 4K on the video quality but not nearly as much going from 4K to 8K. The subtle differences can be seen on things like "blades of grass" and more intricate detail like that. I remember a few years ago being at Best Buy and the salesperson had two TVs right next to each other (one 4K and the other 8K). You could see the difference side-by-side on details like that.

The problem I have with side by sides like that is they are rarely the same outside of resolution itself. So the differences seen could easily be something to do with some type of processing the 8K display was doing that the 4K was not. Blades of grass really are not that dense in terms of resolution when you are talking about approaching nyquist. So there shouldn't be a lot of difference there. That is why I would love to see something where the displays are absolutely identical in every way EXCEPT for the resolution. It may be impossible though to test unfortunately.

 

[Rmarci]

And bitrate increase only helps if there was a need for more of it to begin with, so like I said, content that was struggling with the bandwidth available.

Right, and many of those higher-bitrate encodes will just end up being bloated. Two-pass bitrate encoding, like Kaleidescape uses, is mostly a waste of time and storage. You'll see once I get mine and start doing lossless screenshot comparisons.

Anyone with encoding experience who isn't constrained by file size or bitrate knows that a single-pass CRF (constant quality) encode is the way to go. Maximum file size efficiency and consistent quality, every time. The only thing that can vary is the bitrate, never the quality.

 

[rafaelsmith]

The problem I have with side by sides like that is they are rarely the same outside of resolution itself. So the differences seen could easily be something to do with some type of processing the 8K display was doing that the 4K was not. Blades of grass really are not that dense in terms of resolution when you are talking about approaching nyquist. So there shouldn't be a lot of difference there. That is why I would love to see something where the displays are absolutely identical in every way EXCEPT for the resolution. It may be impossible though to test unfortunately.

Also, I learned awhile ago to take side by sides at places like BB and Circuit City with grain of salt. I have spoken to people that worked at those places and they often mentioned how they would purposely make sure the TV showing the "old" -vs- whatever new shiny thing they were trying to push were setup to look their worst.

 

[cardsdoc]

Agree there is a bit of FOMO going on and some of the subjective descriptions seem a little hard to completely attribute to the new format. Always hard to eliminate bias so blind A/B testing will be useful. But I also agree it's still exciting as it's the first upgrade to 4K in over a decade. No offense to the poster as I'm sure it's what was perceived but this is my favorite review so far:

"At first viewing, the difference between the E and the K was subtle. Natural subjects, like skies of clouds or mild sunsets were smoother and more beautiful. The next thing I noticed was that every time a movie was paused, the image looked like a gorgeous high-definition photograph. Then I noticed more details in the rooms people were in, and then I noticed that I could comprehend action scenes more easily. But the big shift was when I realized that everything was more grounded and that I was much more peaceful and able to enjoy watching movies without getting fatigued -- a quiet seismic shift as the part of my brain that has always been filling in the gaps in motion and reconciling the false colors could finally relax and just enjoy the beauty and story of the movie."

 

[lujan]

The problem I have with side by sides like that is they are rarely the same outside of resolution itself. So the differences seen could easily be something to do with some type of processing the 8K display was doing that the 4K was not. Blades of grass really are not that dense in terms of resolution when you are talking about approaching nyquist. So there shouldn't be a lot of difference there. That is why I would love to see something where the displays are absolutely identical in every way EXCEPT for the resolution. It may be impossible though to test unfortunately.

It not only a side-by-side like that but I've noticed subtle differences in my own home when going from the 4K in one room to the 8K TV on another.

 

[Nathan28]

The Kscape content that is 8K will not be 444, it will be 420. Granted, 8K 420 is already starting with more chroma information than 4K 420 anyways.

I've said this a few times already but I cannot stress enough how people REALLY shouldn't get to worked up about 422 or 444. No matter what you are starting with more information than we had before, but we are also not very sensitive to chroma resolution in the first place. The difference between raw and upscaled chroma is likely slight at best, but I will always take more resolution to begin with as anything in the pipeline of your video chain that is doing any type of processing is always taking something away (never a free lunch), so better to start with more. I think the bit rate could help with more demanding titles, but I also think it would be more in line with worst case scenarios.

I am stoked that Kscape is offering something that is objectively better video than you can get anywhere else. I just hope people keep their expectations a bit in check and not fall for the trap of FOMO or overly gushing hype that is likely unwarranted.

Too late bro… more than half of this forum myself included has already fell into the trap… maybe not because it will be “way” better… but because we have invested in awesome equipment and we want the best… the K player, should be the best. How much better will that be?but I’m excited to find out

 

[grettagirl]

Agree there is a bit of FOMO going on and some of the subjective descriptions seem a little hard to completely attribute to the new format. Always hard to eliminate bias so blind A/B testing will be useful. But I also agree it's still exciting as it's the first upgrade to 4K in over a decade. No offense to the poster as I'm sure it's what was perceived but this is my favorite review so far:

"At first viewing, the difference between the E and the K was subtle. Natural subjects, like skies of clouds or mild sunsets were smoother and more beautiful. The next thing I noticed was that every time a movie was paused, the image looked like a gorgeous high-definition photograph. Then I noticed more details in the rooms people were in, and then I noticed that I could comprehend action scenes more easily. But the big shift was when I realized that everything was more grounded and that I was much more peaceful and able to enjoy watching movies without getting fatigued -- a quiet seismic shift as the part of my brain that has always been filling in the gaps in motion and reconciling the false colors could finally relax and just enjoy the beauty and story of the movie."

No offense taken; not surprising, the girl writes like a girl. I wonder though, since it is known that women generally see colors more, or see more colors, than men, if we are more affected by the increased color information than men are, and therefore find the color compression more disturbing, and the fix more positive. I was not exaggerating my experience when I said that I felt more peaceful. (actually I meant all of the above, but I understand the clash between my linguistic style and the technical specs speech which is preferred in this forum.)

p.s. I in no way mean to say that all women write like I wrote in my review, or are incapable in writing in technical specs speech.

 

[Broncowrangler]

Although objective measurements are very important to gauge performance and establish benchmarks, you cannot eliminate the human element involved in the overall experience. What i’m noticing is that all K users have exhibited similar positive experiences. I haven’t come across a single person not being impressed with their new product.

In this hobby even incremental improvements are huge steps. I’m absolutely on board with folks challenging conventions.

 

[artur9]

... The biggest "improvement" most people will likely see in their setups at this point is moving to better displays with ...

... much higher refresh rates...

Motion with current tech is still very juddery to my eyes. I'm wanting that 480 frames/sec to even higher to address. Or something akin to how the old plasmas (Panny, in my case) did it.

 

[KDeering]

No offense taken; not surprising, the girl writes like a girl. I wonder though, since it is known that women generally see colors more, or see more colors, than men, if we are more affected by the increased color information than men are, and therefore find the color compression more disturbing, and the fix more positive. I was not exaggerating my experience when I said that I felt more peaceful. (actually I meant all of the above, but I understand the clash between my linguistic style and the technical specs speech which is preferred in this forum.)

p.s. I in no way mean to say that all women write like I wrote in my review, or are incapable in writing in technical specs speech.

Except there really isn't "more" color information. The players were ALWAYS upscaling color before. So even though the file was 420, the player was ALWAYS outputting either 422 or 444. The only difference is that the color now is native and not an upscale. So the likelihood that you'd notice the difference between native and upscaled with chroma (which we are insensitive to already) is why I say that it is highly unlikely unless there was something lacking or straight wrong in the chroma upscaling.

Again, I am GLAD K did this as you definitely have a better version to work with. I'm just tampering expectations to what that actually delivers subjectively vs what you are watching now.

 

[grettagirl]

Except there really isn't "more" color information. The players were ALWAYS upscaling color before. So even though the file was 420, the player was ALWAYS outputting either 422 or 444. The only difference is that the color now is native and not an upscale. So the likelihood that you'd notice the difference between native and upscaled with chroma (which we are insensitive to already) is why I say that it is highly unlikely unless there was something lacking or straight wrong in the chroma upscaling.

Again, I am GLAD K did this as you definitely have a better version to work with. I'm just tampering expectations to what that actually delivers subjectively vs what you are watching now.

So perhaps I'm confused in the mechanics (or electronics), but what I'm seeing is more accurate, natural colors. Not more intense, more saturated, punchy colors, but more reality in the colors. Isn't that consistent with having more chroma information? Especially if I am naturally more sensitive to color differentiations?

 

[KDeering]

So perhaps I'm confused in the mechanics (or electronics), but what I'm seeing is more accurate, natural colors. Not more intense, more saturated, punchy colors, but more reality in the colors. Isn't that consistent with having more chroma information?

The colors are definitely NOT more accurate. There was never any issue with the accuracy of the output. The color gamut is exactly the same (2020 for HDR, 709 for SDR). There is ZERO change in saturation, chrome resolution has absolutely NOTHING to do with the saturation of colors.

 

[Broncowrangler]

The colors are definitely NOT more accurate. There was never any issue with the accuracy of the output. The color gamut is exactly the same (2020 for HDR, 709 for SDR). There is ZERO change in saturation, chrome resolution has absolutely NOTHING to do with the saturation of colors.

No offense, but have you observed this first hand?

 

[KDeering]

No offense, but have you observed this first hand?

The colors are exactly the same. Again, I don't think most people here understand color science and how it works. Chroma resolution and Color gamut/volume are not the same thing. One has nothing to do with the other.

 

[mkozlows]

Except there really isn't "more" color information. The players were ALWAYS upscaling color before. So even though the file was 420, the player was ALWAYS outputting either 422 or 444. The only difference is that the color now is native and not an upscale.

Okay, but there is more color information. Just as there's more luma information in a 4K image than a 1080p image upscaled to 4K (or a 480p image upscaled to 4K). Upscaling doesn't add information, it just tries to represent the information that's there in as congenial a way as possible.

That it's subtle, and that it might not be noticeable on most content, is true. But it is more information.

 

[KDeering]

Okay, but there is more color information. Just as there's more luma information in a 4K image than a 1080p image upscaled to 4K (or a 480p image upscaled to 4K). Upscaling doesn't add information, it just tries to represent the information that's there in as congenial a way as possible.

That it's subtle, and that it might not be noticeable on most content, is true. But it is more information.

As I said in the comment you quoted the difference is whether the display is getting the native color resolution or upscaled. So that goes back to whether there was an issue with the scaling and whether you’d notice that difference. Back in the day there were issues with chroma scaling (back in the DVD days and early Blu ray, look up CUE and you may find more). So yes, the benefit is starting off with more chroma resolution vs upscaled chroma. But there are actually displays that have issues with different chroma resolutions or will convert no matter what (and could have issues there too). But there is zero difference in color gamut/volume which would cover luminance/saturation of the color you are watching.