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New UHD Kaleidescape hardware
- Thread starter HiFiGuy1
- Start date
I am going to start a new thread in the remotes / control systems area about the possibility of Crestron, Remotescape, roomie, etc. being able to solve the problem of having two separate systems with Encore and Premiere on the same network and giving a seamless movie selection experience. I invite everyone to comment their thoughts in it.
cinelife
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My initial comment is that I don't think this can be done. I believe the access programmer's get to KEAOS is too restricted. More importantly, and not yet discussed, is the fact that if this could be done, why wouldn't K do it? I think people forget that K is all about making the experience as user friendly as possible, and if they are not doing it, then there is obviously a reason. Is it a technological limitation? Don't know. Could it be K decided against devoting very limited resources to get this done? Maybe. Without knowing for sure, I'd guess this is not being done because of contractual restrictions related to the implementation of 4K.
If the separation is intentional, and contractually required, then any attempt on our part to circumvent the restriction could be viewed as a violation of the SLA, but that's K's call.
Jim
If the separation is intentional, and contractually required, then any attempt on our part to circumvent the restriction could be viewed as a violation of the SLA, but that's K's call.
Jim
Wait, doesn't the Kapp automatically find your system on the network? If so, what's going to happen when you have TWO different systems (an Encore and Premiere, for example) on your network? Does it have an interface to make you pick from one or the other? Or is there a different app for Encore? Or is there no app for Encore?
I can't imagine any reason why the movie studios would give two shits about how your REMOTE CONTROL handles the interface to two distinct systems. There's certainly no reason to be concerned from a security-of-the-content standpoint.
In my world, the right answer is this: One Kapp that knows how to talk to both Encore and Premiere. Within the app, a configuration setting...the default being to let you pick your system of choice to control using some sort of obvious tab at the top of the screen in the app (and maybe give them custom names). The OTHER setting being "integrate all movies into one interface." In that setting, you'd HAVE to have your own custom backend system that knew how to listen to the K servers for messages telling the system if/when to switch systems and where.
If the movie studios have foreseen this kind of scenario and don't like it enough that they've precluded it already, well, I throw my hands up at the state of the entire world of movies at home. I swear.
--Donnie
I can't imagine any reason why the movie studios would give two shits about how your REMOTE CONTROL handles the interface to two distinct systems. There's certainly no reason to be concerned from a security-of-the-content standpoint.
In my world, the right answer is this: One Kapp that knows how to talk to both Encore and Premiere. Within the app, a configuration setting...the default being to let you pick your system of choice to control using some sort of obvious tab at the top of the screen in the app (and maybe give them custom names). The OTHER setting being "integrate all movies into one interface." In that setting, you'd HAVE to have your own custom backend system that knew how to listen to the K servers for messages telling the system if/when to switch systems and where.
If the movie studios have foreseen this kind of scenario and don't like it enough that they've precluded it already, well, I throw my hands up at the state of the entire world of movies at home. I swear.
--Donnie
Why is it not just as simple as until last week there was no need to do this?No one invisioned a customer having two systems that could not talk to one another that would both have unique content. If you had a premiere system your plan would never be to add an Alto. Vice versa, if you had an Alto or Cinema one and wanted to upgrade to Premiere you would only keep the old system to use as a standalone system.
Last week we found out that to get 4K we have to have an Encore system. If we also still want to load DVD/BR we have to keep our Premiere systems.
The iPad app from K works with both the Alto (and I would expect the entire Encore line) and Premiere line. There is now a reason to simultaneously combine the content together on the one app.
John
Last week we found out that to get 4K we have to have an Encore system. If we also still want to load DVD/BR we have to keep our Premiere systems.
The iPad app from K works with both the Alto (and I would expect the entire Encore line) and Premiere line. There is now a reason to simultaneously combine the content together on the one app.
John
I think what Jim is saying is that K had to agree to many things to get 4K content. Much like the BR consortium closed the loopholes and added even more restrictions than the DVD agreement, the 4K group has probably learned even more and has even more radical agendas. Which *could* mean K had to agree to something along the lines of not doing ANYTHING to "integrate" the old with the new.
That could be possible as they want to build a wall where people who BUY movies have to buy them AGAIN to get them all in one place. Seems a little far-fetched since they probably can't make Netflix or Apple do anything even remotely similar, but perhaps they have plans in those arenas we don't yet know about, too.
Or maybe this is all just more "we're scared" speculation and things aren't that dire and we just have to wait a bit for K to get the kinks worked out and give us some better integration. Like I said before, for now the SERIOUSLY hard core with $texas won't mind dual systems too much if they want 4K now. Folks who aren't dying for it as badly won't be dying for it too much worse in six months, giving K time to address this before the demand curve goes up too terribly badly.
I'm in the camp that doubts there is anything precluding some more integration than we currently have possible other than K's engineering time to do it, so I'm just going to be patient.
K has said they couldn't add 4K to Premiere due to hardware limitations, but is there any reason why they still couldn't do Premiere2 that *could* do DVD/BR/4K? And if they did and you add it to your legacy system it could still rip DVD content. Or not?
Obviously that's not completely ideal, but in theory a reasonable upgrade program wouldn't make it too terrible. *shrug* Right?
--Donnie
That could be possible as they want to build a wall where people who BUY movies have to buy them AGAIN to get them all in one place. Seems a little far-fetched since they probably can't make Netflix or Apple do anything even remotely similar, but perhaps they have plans in those arenas we don't yet know about, too.
Or maybe this is all just more "we're scared" speculation and things aren't that dire and we just have to wait a bit for K to get the kinks worked out and give us some better integration. Like I said before, for now the SERIOUSLY hard core with $texas won't mind dual systems too much if they want 4K now. Folks who aren't dying for it as badly won't be dying for it too much worse in six months, giving K time to address this before the demand curve goes up too terribly badly.
I'm in the camp that doubts there is anything precluding some more integration than we currently have possible other than K's engineering time to do it, so I'm just going to be patient.
K has said they couldn't add 4K to Premiere due to hardware limitations, but is there any reason why they still couldn't do Premiere2 that *could* do DVD/BR/4K? And if they did and you add it to your legacy system it could still rip DVD content. Or not?
Obviously that's not completely ideal, but in theory a reasonable upgrade program wouldn't make it too terrible. *shrug* Right?
--Donnie
cinelife
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First, at this point I'm guessing, because I still do not have all of the answers relating to the integration of this new line, and because this is still a bit fluid. K mentioned as well that they are still looking into some of the issues we have been discussing in the forum, so clearly some minor things might change.
To be clear, all I'm referring to is the "joining" of both systems (Premiere/Encore) to be able to view the two separate collections as a single unified collection, and be able to select a movie, as we currently do, from this unified List/Covers/Collections, etc. view. I "think" that it might not be possible to do this because of contractual restrictions related to download , storage, and access to 4K content. I could be wrong here, my comment is based on conversations I've had with K over the past few weeks. When I asked if there was any way to join the two systems for viewing and selecting purposes I was told "that's not going to be possible," and then a discussion about 4K security requirements hinted at the reason it was not possible, BUT I never asked for an exact reason why it could not be done. I will try to get that answer from K.
Jim
To be clear, all I'm referring to is the "joining" of both systems (Premiere/Encore) to be able to view the two separate collections as a single unified collection, and be able to select a movie, as we currently do, from this unified List/Covers/Collections, etc. view. I "think" that it might not be possible to do this because of contractual restrictions related to download , storage, and access to 4K content. I could be wrong here, my comment is based on conversations I've had with K over the past few weeks. When I asked if there was any way to join the two systems for viewing and selecting purposes I was told "that's not going to be possible," and then a discussion about 4K security requirements hinted at the reason it was not possible, BUT I never asked for an exact reason why it could not be done. I will try to get that answer from K.
Jim
Transepoch
Well-known member
They just got done lowering it... Unless there is still a classic-DV700, I am less than amused by this news.
John,
As a dealer, I have had many times that two discrete and separate systems were on my network - usually mine and one customer's system but sometimes my home system and my office one when I would have it at the house for replication and downloading (my office network speed averages under 1mbps and much of that is used for cloud backup of my data).
I have not really worked the iPad ap a lot during those times, but I do not recall having any issues getting the ap to work when there were two systems on my network and I think it allowed me to pick which system I wanted to connect to when I would swap systems in the controls.
Well, I was thinking about this. Any 4K title currently in the new store should be available for download into our old Premier systems as HD or DVD quality when we buy the 4K version, so our Premier server can show all the content in one place - it would just need a way to denote that we have it in 4K on the Encore. The Strato player might have a more difficult time seeing what we have on Premier if the two really cannot talk to each other.
As I won't have 4K in every room, I do plan to have all my 4K content in 1080p resolution on my old system as well. This will work for all as long as we have space and Disney is not involved as many (most?) legacy Premier systems have not opted in to the Disney store option and with the Encore line, we won't have to lose importing on our Premier to be able to access 4K Disney content from the store either. There is our silver lining I guess.
As I won't have 4K in every room, I do plan to have all my 4K content in 1080p resolution on my old system as well. This will work for all as long as we have space and Disney is not involved as many (most?) legacy Premier systems have not opted in to the Disney store option and with the Encore line, we won't have to lose importing on our Premier to be able to access 4K Disney content from the store either. There is our silver lining I guess.
I wouldn't care for any system that *relied* on this situation because at some point there WILL be movies released on 4K that there are no HD/DVD quality versions of. Case in point, they've said that they plan to support 3D on 4K, but we're NEVER getting 3D on Premiere. So as soon as one buys a 3D 4K movie, unless you happen to get the 2D version of that for free as well (possible, but maybe not likely), you've broken the above paradigm.
--Donnie
Every time I have purchased an HD film from the online store, when I look I have had the option to download the DVD version to any system I own at no charge.
If we are talking hypothetically, yes there will be 4K versions of films not available in DVD much like there are HD films not available on VHS. Is there a single title in the store that is available in HD that is not available in DVD quality? I don't really foresee films being released exclusively in 4K and not in HD versions until HD is such a thing of the past that it is dying. DVD isn't even dead yet.
Getting 3D support on the Stratos but not the premier line is not a case in point. That is a hardware limitation of the premier line players and for Kaleidescape to retool and make a new player with 3D capability isn't going to sell enough to cover the costs of developing it if it doesn't add 4k or something more compelling that just an upgrade to add 3D for thousands of dollars.
I do think the example I listed would work. One other downfall I see though is that your catalog that shows all your titles would be on the premier and so it wouldn't be in 4K like the Stratos player would be.
If we are talking hypothetically, yes there will be 4K versions of films not available in DVD much like there are HD films not available on VHS. Is there a single title in the store that is available in HD that is not available in DVD quality? I don't really foresee films being released exclusively in 4K and not in HD versions until HD is such a thing of the past that it is dying. DVD isn't even dead yet.
Getting 3D support on the Stratos but not the premier line is not a case in point. That is a hardware limitation of the premier line players and for Kaleidescape to retool and make a new player with 3D capability isn't going to sell enough to cover the costs of developing it if it doesn't add 4k or something more compelling that just an upgrade to add 3D for thousands of dollars.
I do think the example I listed would work. One other downfall I see though is that your catalog that shows all your titles would be on the premier and so it wouldn't be in 4K like the Stratos player would be.
The one exception is Disney - as far as I can tell there are ONLY HD versions with no DVD versions available on the store. It doesn't really affect me since I have no plans to opt-in.
In general, I like your idea - a decent work around if there is no other solution. I could even see going in and modifying the movie data to change the title on 4K movies to add something like "4K Available" (or add 4K cover art) so we know to check the "other" server for the 4K version.
On 3D, although the FAQ say that the Strato could support 3D at some point, Kaleidescape has never said that they would offer 3D in the store (not said that they wouldn't either). So for now, 3D is up in the air.
John
Transepoch
Well-known member
There's still existing non-4k features to be added, like in-device audio decoding. However, I suspect 3D would probably be a bigger draw than folks may want to give it credit.