New UHD Kaleidescape hardware

[HiFiGuy1]

I saw the new UHD ecosystem at CEDIA, and thought you guys might be interested in a quick run-down.

Disc server:
Holds 320 discs. Playable through any Alto or Strato player. $5k.

Alto player:
Same mostly, still with disc slot for local playback, SD and HD, but now has 6TB instead of 4TB, with the option for no storage (player only) when used with the Terra Server or the Disc Server. No UHD ability. Only four of the storage versions per system, but if you use the non-storage players with the Terra Server(s), that can be several more. $2300 (player-only) and $3300 (6TB) retail.

Strato player:
Black face instead of white. Like the Alto, available versions with 6TB or no storage (player only). Neither Strato has a disc slot for local playback, not even for DVD or Blu-ray, which seemed odd. So, if you want to go all-in on UHD, you won't be able to play any physical discs at all. When the UHD disc playback hardware generally is further along, maybe this will change. Not sure. $3500 (player-only) or $4500 (6TB) retail.

Terra Server:
Black face. Chassis can be linked like the Premiere 1U or 3U to increase capacity. Don't remember how many, but at least three in one system. IIRC, it can stream to as many as 7 UHD players, or 15 HD/SD streams. 12 TB chassis is field upgrade-able, but only by a dealer, at least for now. $6k (12TB) or $8k (24 TB) retail.

I am personally very disappointed that Kaleidescape apparently cannot build a Premiere Line UHD/4K player. I was told that the chipsets in the current Premiere servers can't support the copy protection required for UHD content. According to the presenter in the booth, the Premiere Line will never be able to play UHD content. So that means that all the grandfathered systems out there will eventually basically be doorstops if you ever want to commit to UHD. You will have to purchase Encore Line equipment, and of course your current Store content will be able to download to it, but I guess any movies that you have on your Premiere servers that are not already digital copy, will just be lost to the ether.

UPDATE:
Much of this info is also on the Kaleidescape website now, under Products > Encore Line. There are pictures, as well.

 

[iansilv]

Thanks man.

 

[HiFiGuy1]

You're welcome! There are some definite positives to take away from the new Encore Line, like a separate server, and the fact that there can be more than four players in a given system. I am certainly not throwing my hands up in despair, but I do think there are some glaring issues which need to be addressed sooner rather than later.

 

[Pio435]

I saw the new UHD ecosystem at CEDIA, and thought you guys might be interested in a quick run-down.

Disc server:
Holds 320 discs. Playable through any Alto or Strato player. $5k.

Alto player:
Same mostly, still with disc slot for local playback, SD and HD, but now has 6TB instead of 4TB, with the option for no storage (player only) when used with the Terra Server or the Disc Server. No UHD ability. Only four of the storage versions per system, but if you use the non-storage players with the Terra Server(s), that can be several more. $2300 (player-only) and $3300 (6TB) retail.

Strato player:
Black face instead of white. Like the Alto, available versions with 6TB or no storage (player only). Neither Strato has a disc slot for local playback, not even for DVD or Blu-ray, which seemed odd. So, if you want to go all-in on UHD, you won't be able to play any physical discs at all. When the UHD disc playback hardware generally is further along, maybe this will change. Not sure. $3500 (player-only) or $4500 (6TB) retail.

Terra Server:
Black face. Chassis can be linked like the Premiere 1U or 3U to increase capacity. Don't remember how many, but at least three in one system. IIRC, it can stream to as many as 7 UHD players, or 15 HD/SD streams. 12 TB chassis is field upgrade-able, but only by a dealer, at least for now. $6k (12TB) or $8k (24 TB) retail.

I am personally very disappointed that Kaleidescape apparently cannot build a Premiere Line UHD/4K player. I was told that the chipsets in the current Premiere servers can't support the copy protection required for UHD content. According to the presenter in the booth, the Premiere Line will never be able to play UHD content. So that means that all the grandfathered systems out there will eventually basically be doorstops if you ever want to commit to UHD. You will have to purchase Encore Line equipment, and of course your current Store content will be able to download to it, but I guess any movies that you have on your Premiere servers that are not already digital copy, will just be lost to the ether.

UPDATE:
Much of this info is also on the Kaleidescape website now, under Products > Encore Line. There are pictures, as well.

Well, my conclusion:

Never trust a dealer and the reputation of a company but only facts when you spend over 2000 bucks for a single System.

obviously, investing in K was the stupidest thing I've ever done. As customer outside US the only thing i can do, is replace the U1-Server with a new one and change the Discvault to Diskcarussel, where I loose the advantage of direct playing movie without Commercials etc. and have no possibility to download other Content, because in Switzerland the onlinestore is not available ...

Very Nice

 

[Haywood]

Well, my conclusion:

Never trust a dealer and the reputation of a company but only facts when you spend over 2000 bucks for a single System.

obviously, investing in K was the stupidest thing I've ever done. As customer outside US the only thing i can do, is replace the U1-Server with a new one and change the Discvault to Diskcarussel, where I loose the advantage of direct playing movie without Commercials etc. and have no possibility to download other Content, because in Switzerland the onlinestore is not available ...

Very Nice

Can you get around that problem with a VPN connection to the US?

 

[Pio435]

Probably I could, but with the disadvantage of download with only original Soundtrack. For me this would not be a problem, but for my family ...


Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk

 

[Mark H]

VPN works to browse the store but non US credit cards / cards not registered to a US address don't work so you can't actually buy anything

 

[smiley]

What about having someone in the US send you a pre-paid, rechargeable debit card (they are available pretty much everywhere here in the US).

https://www.myvanilladebitcard.com/myvanilla/vrn.html

 

[House72]

I agree with non US customers. Getting K is for convenience. This should not be complex to browse and buy.

I am sure K is unable to negotiate world wide licensing like Apple. I also thought even Netflix does not work outside US.

Cheers

 

[Pio435]

I agree with non US customers. Getting K is for convenience. This should not be complex to browse and buy.

I am sure K is unable to negotiate world wide licensing like Apple. I also thought even Netflix does not work outside US.

Cheers

Meanwhile, I see it the same way with licensing outside US. But when buying I was promised that there will be a Swiss-Store ... After termination of free loan-program I was told, K is working on faster bookmarking support for mainstream non US-discs an there should soon come a download store ... and what happend? Nothing but the announcement, that premier line is deadend. So, probably after a few more years (with much luck 3 - 4 with premier line Support, in bad case only 1 - 2 years) I'm sitting on an expensive pile of junk ... wow, thats just like money thrown out the window ...

 

[Mr.Poindexter]

Well, that does suck, especially for you in Switzerland and the poor store options. That said, as for an "expensive pile of junk" these things all have a certain useful lifespan. I don't expect my VCR to last 15 years and even if it does, it is obsolete. I don't have a single component left from my original Kaleidescape system - I have upgraded all my servers, readers and players. If I upgraded all my players to UHD 4K players, the old ones would be obsoleted as well and I might well want to upgrade servers at some point again like I did moving to the 3U.

My objection is not the inevitable end of life of equipment, but the manner in which our Premier line is being kicked to the curb and the lack of a well thought out explanation to the user base. This could have been handled differently and should have been. All that said, it isn't money thrown out the window. The Premier line system I have today can do everything it could when I bought it and when I bought it, 4K wasn't even on the horizon. And even if it is gone, I don't consider time spent using it as money thrown out the window any more than I feel that way watching a movie (except for crap like Ultraviolet, the movie starring Milla Jovovich, which actually was like throwing money out the window and she owes me almost two hours of my life back).

 

[JerryL]

You're right.

I don't think the problem right now is the new system so much as the surprise many of us are feeling because we all thought at least our servers would function with new players.

Right now although I'm upset, I say lets wait and see if there is a way to move from Premiere to Encore and what that would involve.

It turns out I have exactly 0 4k displays in my home along with my projector which has served me very well for 7 years and I don't feel a huge need to upgrade right now at least.

 

[Haywood]

I agree with non US customers. Getting K is for convenience. This should not be complex to browse and buy.

I am sure K is unable to negotiate world wide licensing like Apple. I also thought even Netflix does not work outside US.

Cheers

Neflix now operates in countries all over the world, but content rights vary from place to place. They are lobbying hard to fix that and so are several other companies, but it will take years to sort out.

 

[House72]

Neflix now operates in countries all over the world, but content rights vary from place to place. They are lobbying hard to fix that and so are several other companies, but it will take years to sort out.

Thanks for the info

I knew Netflix was not working in India. My FIL does use VPN to make it work. Its still not rock solid as Internet speeds are not as good.

I have 150MBPS connection here and get rock solid 100MBPS plus downstream. In India he hardly gets 10MBPS.

Cheers

 

[HiFiGuy1]

You're right.

I don't think the problem right now is the new system so much as the surprise many of us are feeling because we all thought at least our servers would function with new players.

Right now although I'm upset, I say lets wait and see if there is a way to move from Premiere to Encore and what that would involve.

It turns out I have exactly 0 4k displays in my home along with my projector which has served me very well for 7 years and I don't feel a huge need to upgrade right now at least.

I agree with the UHD displays, or lack thereof, in my house. In fact, the vast majority of those who do have "4K" displays right now largely still don't have true UHD anyway, so it is a moot point at this moment. But going forward, I would have liked to see a solution that brought at least our current Premiere servers along for the ride. It's probably too much work to bring the Encore players and the Premiere servers together, and I get that, but why can't there basically be an "M3xx" and "M5xx"? If all you are doing is adding HDMI 2.0a and HDCP 2.2 to an existing platform to facilitate the existing architecture's ability to play UHD content, it would seem more approachable.

I don't really understand how we could have a Terra Server which is fully compatible with DVD/HD/UHD, but we can't get a board built for an upgrade to our existing Premiere Line servers to make them compatible with a future Premiere UHD player. I know that HDCP 2.2 is an obstacle, and copyright protection for the UHD content, and I understand that is not an inconsequential hurdle, but clearly they were able to do it in the Encore Line. It might not be economically practical to do the software side of it for the relatively small number of installed systems world-wide, I don't know.

So, let's disregard the Premiere Line for the moment, and talk about Encore. First, I am aware that there really are no UHD disc drives available as of today. However, I am not on board with the decision that was made to create a Strato that has no disc drive whatsoever. They are clearly able to build a player with or without built-in storage AND a disc drive, even if it's Blu-ray/DVD. It's called an Alto. There is no reasonable explanation for creating a completely separate player, with no drive at all, just to play downloaded UHD content. It's not even cost effective from an economy-of-scale perspective. In fact, if you're going to keep a DVD/Blu-ray only device in your lineup at all, why not strip THAT ONE of a disc reader and sell it for $1999? That price point makes sense from a marketing perspective, and it's the player that would logically be used in rooms that were for secondary viewing. If you bought a Terra Server and only one player, or certainly an all-in-one entry to the Kaleidescape ecosystem, you'd want to be able to play UHD content as well as a DVD/Blu-ray disc now and again, right?

What I think should have happened (at the most) is this:
Alto player, no drive, no storage = $1999 (M300 equivalent)
Alto player, DVD/BD drive, 6TB storage = $2999 (existing Alto + 2TB)
Strato UHD player, DVD/BD drive, no storage = $3999
Strato UHD player, DVD/BD drive, 6TB storage = $4999

This would allow us to have a clear path to UHD, even allowing for trade-ins and upgrades to the eventual Strato with a built-in UHD disc player, and relieve the time pressure on K to get something to market that can play UHD content, while allowing us to maintain playback of physical discs that we get from ("shudder") Redbox, etc., or possibly when we are entertaining our impoverished, deprived guests who didn't have the sense to buy Kaleidescape for themselves.

Also, what about legacy owners who were grandfathered for DVDs? I understand that the recent settlement agreement will not allow for the number of grandfathered systems to increase, but there's no technical reason I am aware of that we can't be allowed to convert Premiere servers to Encore servers which could be authorized to allow DVD copying. The release of the Terra server even means that the infrastructure for the Encore line basically mimics the Premiere Line conceptually, but the lack of a path for UHD in the Premiere Line seems to imply that the days of being able to record DVDs are coming to an end, unless one just chooses not to participate in UHD via K at all. So the most loyal, early-adopting K owners are getting the shaft the worst.

I was told at CEDIA that if I had a client who would like to play UHD, but also had DVDs and/or Blu-rays lying around, maybe ones that were not available in the store, since all the studios are still not fully on-board and in the store as of this moment, that I should sell the client an Alto and a Strato, even if they only had need for a K system in one room. I currently use an Oppo BD player for occasional discs that I want to play in my theater that I either don't own (I have an M300) or that need the SACD/DVD-Audio capability, so I don't mind having two players, especially when one's only $500, but within the K system, I don't think it makes sense to have a pool of DVD/BD/UHD content on a server or servers, and have only part of that content visible on one player, and part of it visible on another player. There's no way to aggregate all this onto one interface, at this moment, because of the decision to leave any kind of drive out of all the Strato players. The ability to aggregate content, and do so with a peerless, standard-setting UI, is one of the reasons I own and sell K systems in the first place.

Through no fault of K, I have been put in the position of making excuses for the BD playback ever since they announced that capability. The Store, especially after all the studios get on board, helps a great deal to alleviate that. I use the Store frequently, and love the idea of it more every day. I would prefer not to be put back in the position of having to make excuses to my clients for the capabilities of the current iteration of Encore hardware as it relates to playback of physical DVD/BD discs. I sincerely hope that K will see the error of their judgement, and add a disc drive to the Strato before release.

Sorry for the verbose reply, but this has been eating at me ever since this past weekend, and I needed to vent.

 

[bdo21]

I feel like an idiot - I bought a 3U system earlier this year thinking I would need the extra space to accommodate 4K, assuming my server would always be the server in the background while just needing to buy 4K players. This is so disappointing and spending such a large amount of money on a system that will be obsolete soon is such a waste

 

[Pio435]

I feel like an idiot - I bought a 3U system earlier this year thinking I would need the extra space to accommodate 4K, assuming my server would always be the server in the background while just needing to buy 4K players. This is so disappointing and spending such a large amount of money on a system that will be obsolete soon is such a waste

Exactly my Feelings and what I ment about trusting a company.

Selling actual hardware and knowing, that the this peaces of hardware will not allow to "house future content" is something like cheating your customers. The dealers should have been informed much earlier about the "new k way" to make sure, nobody invests his money in a system which will not match a specific future requirement ... This way we would have had at least the chance to decide whether it is worth the risk or not!

But all this silly discussion becomes negligible when reading the lines from Jim about a little girl losing her life. That makes me realy sad

 

[djb_rh]

Exactly my Feelings and what I ment about trusting a company.

Selling actual hardware and knowing, that the this peaces of hardware will not allow to "house future content" is something like cheating your customers. The dealers should have been informed much earlier about the "new k way" to make sure, nobody invests his money in a system which will not match a specific future requirement ... This way we would have had at least the chance to decide whether it is worth the risk or not!

I doubt folks have to worry too much about the above. My guess is K will have a VERY attractive upgrade path for folks that have bought a server within the last year (which coincides nicely with non-grandfathered status). The question becomes what K will do for those of us who not only are grandfathered, but have larger collections of grandfathered content. That's the part that's scarier.


--Donnie

 

[HiFiGuy1]

The question becomes what K will do for those of us who not only are grandfathered, but have larger collections of grandfathered content. That's the part that's scarier.


--Donnie

Well said. If everything I have on my server were available as a digital copy on the Store, I wouldn't be quite as frustrated, but as it stands, even if I were on board with the new path, and willing to drop the money to replace all my hardware and go with basically a download-only strategy, I can't do it because of the number of studios and titles that are still missing in the Store. I only have a 1U, so I can't imagine extrapolating that for guys that have one or more 3U servers.

 

[Transepoch]

I was told at CEDIA that if I had a client who would like to play UHD, but also had DVDs and/or Blu-rays lying around, maybe ones that were not available in the store, since all the studios are still not fully on-board and in the store as of this moment, that I should sell the client an Alto and a Strato, even if they only had need for a K system in one room.
[...]
I don't think it makes sense to have a pool of DVD/BD/UHD content on a server or servers, and have only part of that content visible on one player, and part of it visible on another player.

Aren't both the Alto and Strato part of the Encore-line, and thus able to see content on the other?