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New Premire server announced!!

Never!!

The progression of flat panel displays is really incredible. If I were to build a small dedicated video room that 100" Sony would definitely be on my short list. These sizes and color reproduction are so good I'd never think about a projector again (for a small room remember!)
 
I have not looked at the 10TB drives on the PC market, but if they have some hardware revision, it would make sense that older hardware may not be able to address it. There was a hardware revision between the old 5U that used Paralled ATA devices, and the 3U/1U that used Serial ATA devices.

That said, given that one cannot house 4K content on the 3U chassis and a single 3U server can now hold 72TB of data, I suspect the vast majority of their client base will not have an actual need for 10TB drives in a 3U chassis, especially when the systems integration takes place and all content, even Blu-Ray quality, that comes from the Kaleidescape Store will need to migrate over to an Encore system, dramatically reducing storage need on the Premier server chassis.

My guess is that perhaps 35% of my existing content on my Premier line would need to migrate to an Encore server. Since the Terra server price per TB is less than the best Premier line per/TB price, I am not complaining and it will give me more value out of my system. I also expect to be near the end of the road on the constant need to increase capacity on my Premier line.
 
Mr.Poindexter said:
............That said, given that one cannot house 4K content on the 3U chassis and a single 3U server can now hold 72TB of data, I suspect the vast majority of their client base will not have an actual need for 10TB drives in a 3U chassis, especially when the systems integration takes place and all content, even Blu-Ray quality, that comes from the Kaleidescape Store will need to migrate over to an Encore system, dramatically reducing storage need on the Premier server chassis...............
Click to expand...


Hadn't thought of it that way.....really good point.




Jim
 
A slight thread high-jack, but I am a little confused on if there are any trade-in promotions but have waited about a month since the announcement initially appeared.

If someone knows, can they disclose what the current, if any, equipment trade-in promotions exist for Premier components. I specifically care about 3U disk array trade-ins, but I thought I would ask in general.

Thanks
 
cinelife said:
Apparently not. IIRC, code used to control the storage function was also modified, but I don't know the details.



Jim
Click to expand...

We got a presentation from Seagate and Western Digital this week on the enterprise usage of these new 10TB drives at our technology forum and they still meet the same SATA spec as all SATA drives.

There is no discernable difference (except for actual READ/WRITE performance and controller enhancements) between SATA revision version 3.0 that came out in 2008 and SATA revision version 3.3 that came out in 2016. Platters get more dense, but the underlying IO is still the same just speed and size differences. Even controller differences still have to meet the SATA spec to use the drives; there is no way around that. There is nothing in these new drives that prevents backward compatibility other than K choosing not to offer these drives for use outside of the new 1U+ configuration. A 3.5" SATA drive consumes 6.5 to 9W (max). This has been and continues to be the consistent case for all certified SATA drives. So, not even power is an issue. (this is controlled by the spec not HDD manufacturers). If you are certified, you meet the spec.

We just put five new 10TB drives in a dirt old Dell PowerEdge 300 server in our data center for testing and it boots fine, formats fine, but merely moves at the older data bus' speed, but the capacity is fully usable. Just a little confused as to why we'd try to make this more technical than it is. It's understandable that K wants to continue to sell premiere systems since the mass entry into Encore and their interoperability with older premiere systems has yet to materialize; they have to have a solid money maker somewhere right? But to say the drives are incompatible is a stretch, and doesn't meet technical muster. K hasn't really released an official reason (that I know of) - and probably won't since nothing short of "we just decided we won't be offering these for older systems" makes sense.

Directly from Wiki (Serial_ATA):

"The designers of SATA aimed for backward and forward compatibility with future revisions of the SATA standard." ...

"SATA 3 Gbit/s and SATA 6 Gbit/s are compatible with each other."
...
"SATA 1.5 Gbit/s and SATA 6 Gbit/s are compatible with each other."

I know, I know, I'm always the rabble rouser. But truth is truth. I won't argue if the truth is actually stated. But perceptions and assumptions are dangerous and cost companies money (K can't afford that). Present the facts or state its an assumption.

Now, to be clear, this is no attack on Jim; he's a great guy and tries to "interpret" K's non-statements consistently. I'm just presenting clear technical facts about the backward compatibility of SATA drives.

Food for thought :)

Lastly, I do intend to trade in my 3Us for 1U+s as soon as the process is announced.
 
Two questions I would have.

1. Is there any running temperature difference with the 10TB drives that would make the server run too hot?

2. If we just decided to buy the 10TB drives, couldn't we install them anyway into a 3U and see if they work? Just don't tell K you are planning to put them in a 3U?
 
cmcgehee said:
Two questions I would have.

1. Is there any running temperature difference with the 10TB drives that would make the server run too hot?

2. If we just decided to buy the 10TB drives, couldn't we install them anyway into a 3U and see if they work? Just don't tell K you are planning to put them in a 3U?
Click to expand...

Answer to #1

The operating temperature range for most Seagate hard drives is 5 to 50 degrees Celsius. A normal PC case should provide adequate cooling.

However, if your enclosure is unable to maintain this range, we suggest that you contact your system manufacturer for information on cooling and ventilation hardware that is compatible with your specific configuration.

10TB Seagate
◦Environmental Temperature (°C)
  • Operating (ambient, min): 5
  • Operating (drive case, max): 70
  • Nonoperating (ambient, min): –40
  • Nonoperating (ambient, max): 70

1TB Seagate
  • Operating (ambient, min): 5
  • Operating (drive case, max): 50
  • Nonoperating (ambient, min): –40
  • Nonoperating (ambient, max): 50

Answer #2

All K drive are "initialized" with a special RAID. Since the servers expect that, if they don't see it the server won't operate correctly. Its the special sauce that keeps tech savy folks from expanding their systems without K. Makes $ense since the drives they provide are thoroughly tested and "Certified" for this purpose. The ones sold to Amazon (exact same model but for a much more mission critical purpose), that run the datacenters of the world are...I guess...less tested and certified. :D:D:D Plus, the drives come with a gold ingot attached which is why they cost so much (juuuuusssst joking:D:D). The MTBF rate on K Drives are no different than the same exact model sold to the public. That special sauce is something else!! :):):):)
 
I understand that Andre, but when we order a 6TB drive from K right now, they don't know if we are putting it in a 1U, a 3U, or otherwise. We are just ordering one of their proprietary drives. Why couldn't we just order a 10TB K drive and say that we are putting it in a 1U+, but then really put it into our 3U to see if it works?
 
cmcgehee said:
I understand that Andre, but when we order a 6TB drive from K right now, they don't know if we are putting it in a 1U, a 3U, or otherwise. We are just ordering one of their proprietary drives. Why couldn't we just order a 10TB K drive and say that we are putting it in a 1U+, but then really put it into our 3U to see if it works?
Click to expand...

I'm referring to just the 10TB drives. The 6TB drives are available from K for all systems. I don't know if they sell the 10TB drives separate from the 1U+. Might not make as much sense to (from a $$$ bottom line standpoint), then people would merely upgrade their existing Premiere system instead of buying the new 1U+. Toss up. (note: keep in mind you have to buy from a dealer and he SHOULD, ask for a server serial number for verification of compatibility. He'll then know what you are trying to stick it in. (IF they sell the drives separate from the 1U+)
 
Just got a quote from a local Georgia K dealer and the upgrade takes about $2800 off of the MSRP that has already been posted here for the 18TB configuration (when trading in a 3U regardless of size) and about $4000 off of the MSRP for the 30TB configuration (when trading in a 3U regardless of size). You pay $15K+/$20K+ for a fully loaded 3U and they only offer you about $3K-$4K on trade-in; that's worse than a used car! :) That says a lot about whether these items actually retain significant value. Apparently, K doesn't think so (and mine are still under warranty) :) Oh well, K technology values seem to be on par as regular technology values; they drop significantly after purchase.
 
cmcgehee said:
I understand that Andre, but when we order a 6TB drive from K right now, they don't know if we are putting it in a 1U, a 3U, or otherwise. We are just ordering one of their proprietary drives. Why couldn't we just order a 10TB K drive and say that we are putting it in a 1U+, but then really put it into our 3U to see if it works?
Click to expand...


That's an easy answer, there are no single 10TB drive purchases available from K. You can only get 10TB drives by purchasing a pre-configured Four 10TB 1U+ Server. Obviously, that fills up a 1U, and given that the drives are pre-installed, they will belong only to that 1U+.



Jim
 
Regarding upgrades, keep in mind that you can always sell privately, you don't have to "sell" it back to K. The reason for the lower price from K is that they don't really need these components, they are just providing an alternative if someone is looking to upgrade without having to go through the process of a private sale. They are certainly not making a statement as to what they think they are worth, but as with any business they are looking to make a profit, not break even, so they aren't going to provide a trade credit that wipes out their profit.



Jim
 
BTW, that's not intended to negate comments related to the low upgrade credit, I agree it's low when you consider the cost of a new 3U, it's just simple math at K, they still need a profit on the sale of every new component.



Jim
 
From what I recall, the only SATA hardware limitation on drive size was 2TB, and that was years ago. Obviously, 1U/3U servers do not have this limitation. I would like to know why K is not offering 10TB drives to 1U/3U owners as a separate purchase?
 
They will eventually but just keep in mind the cost difference is going to be a lot!
If you look at the price difference between the 6tb Strato and the 10tb. Strato
it's a $ 1,500.00 price difference between the to.
Now if you add in the current cost of the 6tb drive at $ 895.00 plus the up charge of $ 1,500.00 for the 10tb. drive I would guess it would be somewhere
around $ 2,395.00 for the drive?
At that price it's cheaper to buy a 3U chassis and keep adding 6tb drives.
 
1highvelocity said:
They will eventually but just keep in mind the cost difference is going to be a lot!
If you look at the price difference between the 6tb Strato and the 10tb. Strato
it's a $ 1,500.00 price difference between the to.
Now if you add in the current cost of the 6tb drive at $ 895.00 plus the up charge of $ 1,500.00 for the 10tb. drive I would guess it would be somewhere
around $ 2,395.00 for the drive?
At that price it's cheaper to buy a 3U chassis and keep adding 6tb drives.
Click to expand...

Is that upcharge really based on the drive size or the HW and K developed technology that uses that drive? Prices for drives have dropped significantly over the years. So, my assumption would be that the upcharge is more K charging for THEIR HW than the drive. Just my opinion though.
 
Well if you look at the current price of a 6tb drive on amazon and look at the price of a 10tb drive it's a little over double the price.
So if that is true you have to factor in the Kaleidescape math!
Then that price sounds about right:)
 
Prices for drives have dropped significantly over the years but when ever they come out with a larger drive it's always way over priced.
The only thing that has changed is that rather then the prices staying high they tend to come down a lot faster then they did in the past.
 
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