Design assumptions of Strato ????

[audioguy123]

It appears that when the Strato concept was executed, two significant assumptions were made: (1) that K would have the ability to provide access EVERY released 4K movie to the user and (2) new releases would be available in a time frame similar to what is available at, for example, Amazon.

And because neither of those are anywhere close to being currently accurate, the Strato is not a very useful product -- at least to quite a number of potential users - me being one of them. The obvious solutions: A 4K compliant DV700 and/or a 4K player built into the Strato itself. Since neither of those are available and apparently never will be, how is a user supposed to deal with titles that K does not support and/or titles that are not available LONG AFTER they are available elsewhere?

The only apparent answer is to purchase an external non-K player which, by definition, takes away a key benefit of the entire Kaleidescape concept. So until there is some kind of resolution to this issue, the user is left with running two systems; having to go find the physical 4K disc to play inserting it into the player, etc, etc, etc.

So my question to K is "What should we expect from K to deal with this issue?" Or is the assumption on K's part still that they will eventually (when??) have the ability to provide us timely access to ALL 4K releases.

And there is one more issue that currently exists that K does not currently have an answer to. If you read the threads on the various 4K players AND the issues with HDR, in all cases, there is functionality built into those players that allows various functions to be executed that allow 4K to even be a viable alternative. Without those features, too many films are so dark or have crushed blacks or ...., they are unwatchable. The long term solution for this is that EVENTUALLY the studios will ALL follow some set of standards so that these options in the players will no longer be necessary.

I HATE having an external 4K player. Not a huge issue at the moment as the number of current film 4K titles is fairly small, but as that number grows, the annoyance level increases.

Answers anyone??????

 

[Pio435]

+1

Warranty of my U1, DiscVault and HD's just going to expire and I have no clue, wheter I should just renew the warranty, upgarde the Server from16 to 24GB, trade up the Server or opt in for encore-line!

As long as I don't know how to get 4K Content with German language or subtitles, I don't know why I should reinvest my money in K? For customer outside US K seem realy to be dead end :-(

A combination of U1-Server with KVault and Encore-Server with K-Discsserver (wich is capable of playing 4K Discs) with Content merged to one Movie-Guide may would be a solution for me ...

 

[cinelife]

I doubt the assumptions you (audioguy123) stated were made by K in considering the Strato. If anyone knows about dealing with the Studios, and the difficulty in getting access to their content, it's K, so I don't think they ever assumed they get all of the 4K content in the market, especially the way that content is distributed. They designed a device that could accept and playback whatever 4K content was made available to them. Obviously contracts control the access, both current and future, and the Studios have the power in determining the terms of these contracts (I suspect there are some "take it or leave it" terms).

That said, I agree with your ideas about additional support for 4K, and the current limits probably do hold back some potential sales. We all want access to every 4K title, and some of us are still hoping for 3D support based on existing collections and the fact that studios are still selling 3D content (even though at least one manufacturer (LG) has elected to leave that support out of their newly released 4K displays). Like most, I also have an external 4K Player, and agree it's a PITA to have to switch back and forth to play some 4K movies.


Jim

 

[audioguy123]

I doubt the assumptions you (audioguy123) stated were made by K in considering the Strato. If anyone knows about dealing with the Studios, and the difficulty in getting access to their content, it's K, so I don't think they ever assumed they get all of the 4K content in the market, especially the way that content is distributed. They designed a device that could accept and playback whatever 4K content was made available to them. Obviously contracts control the access, both current and future, and the Studios have the power in determining the terms of these contracts (I suspect there are some "take it or leave it" terms).

That said, I agree with your ideas about additional support for 4K, and the current limits probably do hold back some potential sales. We all want access to every 4K title, and some of us are still hoping for 3D support based on existing collections and the fact that studios are still selling 3D content (even though at least one manufacturer (LG) has elected to leave that support out of their newly released 4K displays). Like most, I also have an external 4K Player, and agree it's a PITA to have to switch back and forth to play some 4K movies.


Jim

Which still leaves me with the question of "what were they thinking"?

Up until the Strato, either via a DV700 or an Alto, I could have direct access to every move I ever wanted to watch and NEVER have to touch a disc again (other than placing it into the slot on the DV700). Now I can't and maybe never will be able have a full system that provides that. So I am forced to use an external player, which now means one of the most important (at least to me) benefits of the K system, is no longer applicable. I am hopeful that they will eventually reconsider a 4K DV700 equivalent. I don't want to sound like a doomsday prophet, but I think they have really hurt themselves by either ignoring or forgetting about the consequences of their current approach to 4K.

I never realized (until I got both the Alto and DV700) what an incredible product the "K System" was. I absolutely LOVE(D) it way more than I ever anticipated, The approach they have taken with 4K has really diminished my enthusiasm.

 

[sbutter]

If I remember correctly, Kscapes Bluray solution was a few years after the formats initial release. Over that time people were frustrated that they did not have a Bluray solution while other manufacturers had players for sometime. The final solution was the Disc Vault.

Now with 4K, they were one of the first to market with downloaded 4K content. They could have easily waited a few years and released a 4K player in 2019.

Personally, I'm glad they released the product early and did not wait like they did in the past with Bluray. There will be some growing pains.

The Kscape experience is incredible and I'm patiently waiting for the studios to fully come on board.

 

[JerryL]

I think you have that right, and I also think the whole "ripping" from discs to a server was a sore spot for the content owners so that's why we don't have it for the 4K discs. I fully support IP rights and understand where the studios and owners are coming from- I wouldn't want my work stolen! But, the K system is self enclosed and I just don't think anyone buying this system would have any interest in piracy. I think they should make their 4K content more widely available. You have a group of people with the Kaleidescape clients who are willing to legally buy the content- why not provide it?

 

[Yetis]

I have been out of the loop for a while. What segment of 4K is missing? Is it a studio (s), or is it 3D? I don't mean to open wounds. Maybe someone can point me in the direction of an answer?

Thank you

 

[JerryL]

I think some of the studios are missing.

 

[audioguy123]

I have been out of the loop for a while. What segment of 4K is missing? Is it a studio (s), or is it 3D? I don't mean to open wounds. Maybe someone can point me in the direction of an answer?

Thank you

In my mind, a number of issues: (1) the studios are not all using the same "standards" for creating films using HDR. So unlike BR, there needs to be some flexibility in the player to make adjustments to deal with the variances and/or the studios need to follow some standards; (2) Just as with BluRay, K does not have access to all 4K titles AND even when they do get them, there (at least for the moment) maybe a delay well beyond that of when other sources can provide the 4k film; (3) because of (2) and because K does not currently have a method (as they do with Blu Ray using the DV700), to play 4K movies which they can't provide but are available elsewhere, we are stuck with the need to purchase a non-K 4K player to play those films.

Why K does not have access to all 4K films or why they are sometimes quite behind the time frame of other providers is an area I don't understand. But I do understand K is trying to get deals with all of the key studios to at least partially deal with these issues.

 

[SJHT]

I'm probably not the norm, but decided that the integration outweights 4K/HDR. I purchase everything I can in 4K from Kscape. If they don't offer the 4K version, I purchase either the HD version (if they sell it - which will likely be upgradable in the future as these are current studios that K has agreements with) or in the case of Paramount (or others), I only the purchase the bluray and pop it into my DV700. I'm finding that I'm watching more movies than ever before and digging deeper into my collection. All, because I don't have to stand in front of a LOT of disks and decide what to watch. With that said, I hope they offer more 4K and get Paramount. My system scales all of my content to 4K and 1080P content (done right) looks fantastic especially for projector based systems. SJ

 

[audioguy123]

I'm probably not the norm, but decided that the integration outweights 4K/HDR. I purchase everything I can in 4K from Kscape. If they don't offer the 4K version, I purchase either the HD version (if they sell it - which will likely be upgradable in the future as these are current studios that K has agreements with) or in the case of Paramount (or others), I only the purchase the bluray and pop it into my DV700. I'm finding that I'm watching more movies than ever before and digging deeper into my collection. All, because I don't have to stand in front of a LOT of disks and decide what to watch. With that said, I hope they offer more 4K and get Paramount. My system scales all of my content to 4K and 1080P content (done right) looks fantastic especially for projector based systems. SJ

I like your approach. I have already by-passed a 4K version (Passengers) for the BR version and gave up Atmos along with it. But my processor does an incredible job of providing "fake" 3D audio from a 5.1 or 7.1 version and my PJ (JVC RS500) does an INCREDIBLE job on 1080P. Not a lot to give up for keeping the integration. I may just continue along this path for a few more years until the studios get the HDR standards agreed to and K will have more time to get more studios on board - and maybe K will eventually have a 4K version of the DV700.

Thanks for the thought !!!

 

[SJHT]

I like your approach. I have already by-passed a 4K version (Passengers) for the BR version and gave up Atmos along with it. But my processor does an incredible job of providing "fake" 3D audio from a 5.1 or 7.1 version and my PJ (JVC RS500) does an INCREDIBLE job on 1080P. Not a lot to give up for keeping the integration. I may just continue along this path for a few more years until the studios get the HDR standards agreed to and K will have more time to get more studios on board - and maybe K will eventually have a 4K version of the DV700.

Thanks for the thought !!!

Yeah we have similar setups as I have a RS600. With my Lumagen Pro doing all of its wonders turning everything into 4K I have a hard time complaining about how good 1080P sources look. Makes integration with K work great. Although Strato having the ability to play everything from the DV700 would be the icing to integration. On the audio side, I have a McIntosh MX160 which is a dream for audio. SJ

 

[mbmapit]

While I do agree with most of the comments made so far I think the most glaringly obvious things that have been overlooked so far are:

1. There are currently 0 third party UHD drives available to the market (Pioneer launching 2 later this month). So, if K wanted to get one in a Strato they would have needed to pay huge amounts to the likes of Sony/Samsung/Panasonic.

2. On the same token there are 0 slim UHD optical drives and 0 announced. Perhaps K are looking at doing a UHD vault but they can't do anything until the hardware physically exists.

I don't believe for one moment that they aren't considering either of the above. I am sure they are aware that currently the Encore range is nowhere near as fluid as it should be compared to how Blu-ray was/is handled on their other systems.

I know Kaleidescape are fighting tooth and nail to get more content and unfortunately things take time. I fully believe they will get the remaining studios on board but they will still need to fight for each title released within each of those studios.

I am happy to wait it out as I know K are heading in the right direction

 

[audioguy123]

While I do agree with most of the comments made so far I think the most glaringly obvious things that have been overlooked so far are:

1. There are currently 0 third party UHD drives available to the market (Pioneer launching 2 later this month). So, if K wanted to get one in a Strato they would have needed to pay huge amounts to the likes of Sony/Samsung/Panasonic.

2. On the same token there are 0 slim UHD optical drives and 0 announced. Perhaps K are looking at doing a UHD vault but they can't do anything until the hardware physically exists.

I don't believe for one moment that they aren't considering either of the above. I am sure they are aware that currently the Encore range is nowhere near as fluid as it should be compared to how Blu-ray was/is handled on their other systems.

I know Kaleidescape are fighting tooth and nail to get more content and unfortunately things take time. I fully believe they will get the remaining studios on board but they will still need to fight for each title released within each of those studios.

I am happy to wait it out as I know K are heading in the right direction

I am not aware of 1 or 2. BUT, what would be nice, is if K were to affirm your next paragraph, that indeed a product plan (no dates, since that got them into trouble last time) would be for a 4K compliant DV700 once cost effective drives were available - and/or a drive in the Strato itself. I have no doubt the first sentence of your next paragraph is true.

And "waiting it out" is exactly what I am doing. As SJHT said, I am perfectly OK with 1080P in my system, including the Alto and DV700. In a couple of years, K will hopefully have all studios on board, have 4K drives in their 4K products and there actually may be HDR standards that the studios can follow.

I certainly have faith that eventually K will get all of this done or I would not have purchased additional products since the they re-opened their doors.

 

[JerryL]

I think you guys are simply missing the fact that the studios will not allow any kind of "ripping". From my limited understanding, I think this is in the "never gonna happen" category. I also don't think they will need to fight for each title, as I understand it (limited), I think the deals include most titles. The real question is why the studios would want to partner with Kaleidescape right now.

To the other thread and quality, VUDU, etc.... All that has to happen is for someone like Amazon, who has deals with all the studios, to decide to charge a fee for super resolution and they can deliver the content.

Sorry for throwing cold water on things, its just how I see it.

 

[audioguy123]

I think you guys are simply missing the fact that the studios will not allow any kind of "ripping". From my limited understanding, I think this is in the "never gonna happen" category. I also don't think they will need to fight for each title, as I understand it (limited), I think the deals include most titles. The real question is why the studios would want to partner with Kaleidescape right now.

To the other thread and quality, VUDU, etc.... All that has to happen is for someone like Amazon, who has deals with all the studios, to decide to charge a fee for super resolution and they can deliver the content.

Sorry for throwing cold water on things, its just how I see it.

It has absolutely ZERO to do with ripping. And the only way Amazon could do what K does it to build a device to be used at the user end to capture the data, similar to the Alto or Strato. Streaming 4K HDR non compressed video along with a full bandwidth audio signal, also non-compressed is not realistic at this moment. And the user interface that Amazon provides with their current 4K box is a joke compared to the K capability. And why, after 12 years, would the studios all of a sudden not want to partner with K?????? And lastly, Amazon would be foolish to chase the niche high end audio/video market. They can spend their money and resources elsewhere and get a much larger return.

 

[JerryL]

I think you are not understanding the nature of some of the attitudes out there among the professionals that make up the deals with Kaleidescape. My opinion, only partially informed, is they would view the placement of any kind of disc reader into the device as a clear intention by Kaleidescape to re-engage with "ripping". And they just can't stomach that. Hence we have downloading only. Go back to the DVDCCA episode for more insight. Consider the Disney Opt In....

As to the streaming services, I was told they either have it now or will have it soon. Its really no big deal- they all get the data in the same format and then adjust it as they need it.

I agree K still has the best UI, but Amazon (or any other streaming company) can give you max quality at home and compressed on the go via your device. I think that is the risk Kaleidescape faces. I hope they find a way to stay relevant, I think for the ultra high end there still is a place for them. But I also think with every day, that space shrinks.

 

[audioguy123]

My opinion, only partially informed, is they would view the placement of any kind of disc reader into the device as a clear intention by Kaleidescape to re-engage with "ripping". And they just can't stomach that. Hence we have downloading only.

.

Then how do you explain the Alto which does have a disc reader? I don't have any insight into what goes on inside of K, but at the time the Strato was announced, I am not aware of any available 4K readers they could have used. BUT lack of a reader only becomes a serious issue if K does not get access to all of the major studios films ON A TIMELY BASIS, OR, never develops a DV700 product for the Strato.

But I also think with every day, that space shrinks.

On that point, I wholeheartedly agree !!

 

[JerryL]

.

Then how do you explain the Alto which does have a disc reader? I don't have any insight into what goes on inside of K, but at the time the Strato was announced, I am not aware of any available 4K readers they could have used. BUT lack of a reader only becomes a serious issue if K does not get access to all of the major studios films ON A TIMELY BASIS, OR, never develops a DV700 product for the Strato.

Easy, the Alto is a BR machine and not a UHD machine. UHD has a different set of rules.

Also, consider the K Scape 4K stuff does not use any kind of RAID and the answer to the question on why is because your content is all provided from download so any drive replacement will replace from the cloud, not local source. Hence, this assumes no need for a drive. As an editorial comment, I disagree with, because the K model is still local storage playback and if you are short on bandwidth or if its interrupted and you have a drive failure, then you can be down your playback ability. Not so with the Premiere. I wish they kept the RAID storage concept for UHD.

I'm sure Kaleidescape was aware of whatever readers were or would be available. I just don't think their 4K solution was ever intended to include a disc reader.

And with that in mind, I have to say I've never really understood the Alto- it strikes me as a product intended to crossover between both systems- but it doesn't give me the robust advantages of the the Premiere with its RAID and it doesn't give me any real integration with 4K/ UHD content.

See, while you can store BR content on the Terra and play it back on the Alto, its not subject to the same rules as UHD content.

I can turn this around: they had an Encore product with a reader in it. Then why remove a feature for the higher end product? Answer: they had to.

.

On that point, I wholeheartedly agree !!

Yeah, it makes me concerned for our beloved Kaleidescape and sad about it too.

Just last week I read a story that Apple might be bringing a 4K Apple TV soon and it might even feature in theater movies?! This is just from a few Apple fan websites, but what's stopping them from doing this right now? Its not technological. And it doesn't have to be Apple, it could be any one of the usual suspects. As soon as they can work it out with the legal side, they will. And then what happens? My Apple TV outputs a solid 60P frame rate, not exactly what I want for movies shot/ mastered in 24, so I really don't want to end up using this as my prime source, but something like this could be a real problem. Imagine how I might feel if I had just bought into Prima Cinema?! (I'm not even sure if they are around).

 

[o0OBillO0o]

It appears that when the Strato concept was executed, two significant assumptions were made: (1) that K would have the ability to provide access EVERY released 4K movie to the user and (2) new releases would be available in a time frame similar to what is available at, for example, Amazon.

And because neither of those are anywhere close to being currently accurate, the Strato is not a very useful product -- at least to quite a number of potential users - me being one of them. The obvious solutions: A 4K compliant DV700 and/or a 4K player built into the Strato itself. Since neither of those are available and apparently never will be, how is a user supposed to deal with titles that K does not support and/or titles that are not available LONG AFTER they are available elsewhere?

The only apparent answer is to purchase an external non-K player which, by definition, takes away a key benefit of the entire Kaleidescape concept. So until there is some kind of resolution to this issue, the user is left with running two systems; having to go find the physical 4K disc to play inserting it into the player, etc, etc, etc.

So my question to K is "What should we expect from K to deal with this issue?" Or is the assumption on K's part still that they will eventually (when??) have the ability to provide us timely access to ALL 4K releases.

And there is one more issue that currently exists that K does not currently have an answer to. If you read the threads on the various 4K players AND the issues with HDR, in all cases, there is functionality built into those players that allows various functions to be executed that allow 4K to even be a viable alternative. Without those features, too many films are so dark or have crushed blacks or ...., they are unwatchable. The long term solution for this is that EVENTUALLY the studios will ALL follow some set of standards so that these options in the players will no longer be necessary.

I HATE having an external 4K player. Not a huge issue at the moment as the number of current film 4K titles is fairly small, but as that number grows, the annoyance level increases.

Answers anyone??????

I really empathize here. I want a UHD Disc Vault. Or even use the current DV700 to verify the Blu-ray Disc that came with the UHD Disc, for credit towards a UHD movie store version.

However, I understand the path forward. Digital.

Be going “not physical” this reduces the risk of potential sources for theives.

Kaleidescape played inside the rules and honored the requirements of many studios. Good on them.