I for one will continue to use my V as long as I can ...but... not gonna fork out for another player or even storage. When the V dies...thats it for me... I have spent some $$ on library but that has died down ALOT and I forsee not really buying much more...might do rentals.
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[Buyer’s Guide] Kaleidescape Quality Compared to Blu-ray & other Digital Sources
- Thread starter Rmarci
- Start date
Furnace Inferno
Well-known member
I know the cost is relevant to us the consumer but it’s irrelevant to the point @LoveCinema was making. Economies of scale are in play and even if we ignore the fact Apple have huge profits both from their store and hardware sales which means they don’t have to worry about finances, the AppleTV alone sells millions vs thousands that the KScape do.
So now not only are they getting parts cheaper because they order everything in larger quantities, also helped by the fact they make their own chips cutting out another middleman, they are also able to make just as much profit if not more selling at the cheaper price. And if we think they are selling at least 100x more then comparatively the KScape players should be at least £15K. That’s also ignoring the fact they aren’t offering the same thing but let’s just keep it simple.
It’s like complaining that a handmade bit of furniture made by a few people costs loads more and takes months to make compared to something from Ikea made off an automated factory line.
Anyway we have very different opinions about it but I just don’t think comparing cost in isolation outside of the market dynamics makes any sense in the context of your grievances.
It’s a shame you guys are so disappointed with it because it is a lot of money but no point investing more if it’s not going to meet your expectations.
I appreciate the work done by @Rmarci and understand the frustration of some members, particularly regarding the release of the Strato V when so many HD titles were not available.
However, Kaleidescape has updated most, if not nearly all, of the HD titles to compatibility. The extras will take more time and are probably a lower priority as many people delete them when they're downloading or don't even watch them. And, they are probably harder to fix if they need to get mezzanine files to do so.
More importantly, @MikeKobb provided an update on May 14th (linked above), which clearly indicated the complexity and timing of resolving the block artifact issue. He indicated that a new version would hopefully be available by early summer. In the meantime, K-Scape has been releasing audio and video updates, including extras, to many titles on a fairly consistent basis.
Frankly, I have never even noticed most (if not nearly all) of the problems that @Rmarci has demonstrated, even after he pointed them out. And, I bet most others have not as well, particularly if they have not obsessed over the complaints in this thread.
As a matter of curiosity, doesn't it strike anyone as peculiarly incongruous that some members harp on repetitive complaints in this thread when Apple promoted Built for Apple Intelligence last year when it sold its last round of most-capable iPhones even though the AI wasn't available? And, a year later, it still will not have released full capability, nor will it probably even do so until next year, well after the next release of phones in September.
Given that @MikeKobb has been very open about the work being done to resolve the issues, why don't we just let @Rmarci do his generous work? Venting is fine but there are limits to its utility, particularly when so many posts are redundant.
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Investing more is irrelevant…. We have invested in a product based on their promises, marketing, advertising, etc… instead we got a defective player, we deserve what we “invested” in. We have been told for a year an update can fix…. Updates have came…, still being told an update will fix…
If I purchased a Mustang and promised 500 horsepower and it was discovered due to a defect it only had 300 hp on day one… a year later we get a update that promised to make it the advertised 500… we get that update and it now has 400.. at what point should we hold them accountable and pursue legal options?
I do not disagree with any of your points... I understand the "math" behind it all.. But in the end....consumers do not think that way...I actually understand why the K cost what it does....but I also cannot ignore the fact that the $4k media player is not 100% of time better than a $150.00 media player when I look at the image on my screen. The fact that the content for that $150 players comes with contraints of storage and bandwidth while the $4k player does not just makes things even worse. I am not upset I payed $4k for the thing.......I am upset that its not meeting the expectations one would have for a $4k player. Content played on a $4k player -vs- a $150 should always be superior. I am upset that they are not delivering on what they promised when they demand the price they do.
They need to prioritize and focus on content....but I think we all know that content is not high priority for them as it is not where they make their $$. In fact I expect its a tiny tiny portion...given the markup on storage. I think that is catching up with them. At some point even the richest customer will have all the hardware they need...at which point all that is left to utilize/justify that crazy expense is content...and it needs to be up to snuff.
Now imagine if instead of a Mustang....it was a Ferrari....
I think the concern...at least from me is that the reason for the lack of being able to address the various encoding artifacts is not because they have not been trying to do so...Ithat there is something actually defective in these players that is the real reason.
I appreciate the work done by @Rmarci and understand the frustration of some members, particularly regarding the release of the Strato V when so many HD titles were not available.
However, Kaleidescape has updated most, if not nearly all, of the HD titles to compatibility. The extras will take more time and are probably a lower priority as many people delete them when they're downloading or don't even watch them. And, they are probably harder to fix if they need to get mezzanine files to do so.
More importantly, @MikeKobb provided an update on May 14th (linked above), which clearly indicated the complexity and timing of resolving the block artifact issue. He indicated that a new version would hopefully be available by early summer. In the meantime, K-Scape has been releasing audio and video updates to many titles on a fairly consistent basis.
Frankly, I have never even noticed most (if not nearly all) of the problems that @Rmarci has demonstrated, even after he pointed them out. And, I bet most others have not as well, particularly if they have not obsessed over the complaints in this thread.
As a matter of curiosity, doesn't it strike anyone as peculiar (in relation to this thread) that Apple promoted Apple Intelligence last year when it sold its last round of most-capable iPhones even though it wasn't available? And, a year later, they still will not have released full capability, nor will they probably even do so until next year, well after the next release of phones in September.
Given that @MikeKobb has been very open about the work being done to resolve the issues, why don't we just let @Rmarci do his generous work? Venting is fine but there are limits to their utility.
I am sure they have been working on it but its been over a year and new titles are still being released with these "errors".
Furnace Inferno
Well-known member
As I said I certainly understand the cost factor to feeling like something more expensive should be better in every way, it’s just the reality is that’s not always the case for the reasons I mentioned.
The problem is there is a limited market of people who want the highest quality, we see that with disc sales, DVD has been king for the longest time despite Bluray and UHD dropping because it’s cheap and good enough for most people. As the market keeps shrinking those numbers are shifting significantly to streaming and eventually UHD/BD will be top because of enthusiasts. UHD in the US was only $870,000,000, assuming an average price of around $17.50 to take into account sales that’s only around 50million discs sold. Let’s say people average 1 disc a month (based on users here a lot buy way more) that’s only around 4 million people in the US who care not only about the highest quality but also about owning a local copy.
That’s compared to around 70 million US Netflix subscribers and significantly more globally but I’m ignoring that because KScape only cater to English speaking countries which limits their scope further.
All that means resources will always be limited to the size of the market and a big part of that is because of what I consider to be insane licensing costs. Why is there a charge for the privilege to sell a movie on the store which studios already take most of the earnings from?!
A Ferrari is less reliable than a Volvo, not as safe in a crash, costs more to run, and significantly more to service on top of the huge initial outlay and won’t be as comfortable to drive, plus a speed bump or big curb completely immobilises them but for those times you can get on a race track it will be faster
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Then they should stop advertising that it is.
Again, I am fine with having bought the Strato V.
We do not know yet if these issues are a hardware issue or simply a process/encoding issue....if its the latter then they need to step up their game...the economics of what the hardware cost is irrelevant when it comes to the quality and the QA of the content being sold. The assumption is they get the same source files. They do not have to deal the bandwidth or storage constraints that the likes of Apple do. There is simply no excuse for poor encodes. I can accept economics and cost of a niche hardware product. Less than top notch content...no.
I admit the Ferrari was a bad example LOL.A Ferrari is less reliable than a Volvo, not as safe in a crash, costs more to run, and significantly more to service on top of the huge initial outlay and won’t be as comfortable to drive, plus a speed bump or big curb completely immobilises them but for those times you can get on a race track it will be faster
MarvinTheAndroid
Well-known member
But that isn't quite the whole story though, you have carefully omitted the dimension of quality. I suspect people aren't complaining that they are paying more and having to wait longer but more so that they are paying more, having to wait longer AND the resulting quality is either no better or not sufficiently better to justify the extra cost and time.
X-Men First Class 2011
slow.pics
- Strong Green push
- DNR and probably a fake grain overlay
- Incorrect 10 000nits maxcll and 9995 maxfall.
UHD Blu-ray has awful compression, but at least they got the colors right. This is a good example of Kscape's poor attempt to fix their source, just terrible work without any respect to the original artistic intent. Call me arrogant, I dont care, but I could do 10 times better without ruining the colors. For example, I edited Aliens (1986) because the original suffers from excessive edge enhancement, inconsistent grain structure, and an overly sharpened appearance due to AI upscaling.
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The Hunger Games 2012
slow.pics
- Match French BD FEL + BL merged... BD HDR10 is a trim pass(US BD too).
- Compression is pretty much equal to the French BD.
################################################################
Sucker Punch 2011
- Slight red push compared to iTunes and MA
################################################################
Toys 1992
- Nothing to complain about
X-Men: First Class (2011) kscape vs uhd-bd | Slowpoke Pics
Slowpoke Pics image comparison service
slow.pics
- Strong Green push
- DNR and probably a fake grain overlay
- Incorrect 10 000nits maxcll and 9995 maxfall.
UHD Blu-ray has awful compression, but at least they got the colors right. This is a good example of Kscape's poor attempt to fix their source, just terrible work without any respect to the original artistic intent. Call me arrogant, I dont care, but I could do 10 times better without ruining the colors. For example, I edited Aliens (1986) because the original suffers from excessive edge enhancement, inconsistent grain structure, and an overly sharpened appearance due to AI upscaling.
##############################################################
The Hunger Games 2012
The Hunger Games (2012) kscape vs BD FEL vs BD BL | Slowpoke Pics
Slowpoke Pics image comparison service
slow.pics
- Match French BD FEL + BL merged... BD HDR10 is a trim pass(US BD too).
- Compression is pretty much equal to the French BD.
################################################################
Sucker Punch 2011
- Slight red push compared to iTunes and MA
################################################################
Toys 1992
- Nothing to complain about
This!
The furniture analogy make no sense unless i paid 10x as much...waited 10x as long and the piece i got was no better than what i could get at Wallmart. I have bought several high qualilty pieces of furniture from custom woodworkers and was never disappointed...yes it took long time...cost alot but always best anything i could be off the shelf for fraction of the cost.
Furnace Inferno
Well-known member
I only left it out because that factor is so variable depending on the craftsman and also the country. In the US you still build loads of things out of wood including houses and basically have unlimited access to high quality timber. In the UK we import everything and most stuff even custom still uses the same chipboard/mdf carcasses for the units, as soon as you go truly custom with timber then the price jumps exponentially because we don’t have the same resources and labour market. There’s obviously not going to be a perfect comparison and we are going way off topic but that was just for context.
The last part of what you said is still not an accurate reflection of Kaleidescape either, comparing to disc you get every release months earlier (provided it’s not a boutique label) and a better user experience. Compared to the only other digital distribution method purely thinking about content, there are two things and I know you want to focus on the picture quality but the audio quality is better literally all the time because the compressed stuff on streaming sucks. So we can talk about quality but then audio, user interface, integrations etc. are also part of that equation.
Let’s not go into that though because we’ll just end up going around in circles again. Ultimately it’s just about differing expectations and my interjection was purely around the cost comparison not having any relation to the resources available.
MarvinTheAndroid
Well-known member
But that is what people are complaining about!
It is accurate as far as quality is concerned which is the whole crux of the discussion. As an aside your comment isn't entirely true but I am sure that you already know that.
I thought you were comparing to disc? This is just moving the goalposts. K themselves compare their quality to disc and so should always be held to the highest standard and not cherry pick the lowest standards as that is just a race to the bottom and many people acquired K to do the exact opposite and climb to the summit.
This will probably be my last comment on this subject as its clear I am just not the target audience K is after.
I always knew about Kaleidescape, and was one of those that simply thought it was overpriced. At that time the single most expensive thing I had for my theater was the NP5...which is considered entry level by most here. At $9-$10k for price of admission, K was simply way out there. However, when the Strato V was announced ...that price of entry all the sudden was something I could handle. Up to 10 UHD Disc quality movies that I could get months before the disc at the ready?....yeah...I was on board....but I should have done more research instead of relying on the marketing and countless influencers. Honestly, in my theater, I have spent more effort on the audio side of things........and I am one that finds the quality of streaming audio to be pretty bad...lack of dynamic range is obvious. In that regard, Kaleidescape has been a godsend...they truly deliver on the "audio" side of being "the ultimate movie platform". The UI...I honestly put little importance on...as long as I can find and get to what I want to play quickly then I am good....i spend so little time looking at the UI screen that even the fact that the V is 1080 did not matter to me.
Then came the video aspect of things. This has been the most "disappointing" to me , not in the sense that it is bad but that is not any better than alternatives..including disc. I look at a $4k media player and think...ok this must be good....I look at the fact that they in theory start with the same source as itunes....do not have to worry about bandwidth or storage size...and yet the video is at best as good. Maybe its my lower end video system....could be. I simply do not understand why....same source, better hardware, less constraints...why do we have all the things that have been reported here and continue to exist in new releases?
What is the end product with K? To me the end product is what I see on my screen and what comes out of my speakers. Given the cost, quality of hardware and lack of constraints it simply should always be the best available...including disc.
Could be, tech in terms of video compression and streaming has reached diminishing return and thats its close enough to disc already. Its surely not the case for audio. If true then it concerns me...for K that all it would take is for Apple to offer lossless audio...or for a new audio compression codec to come out that reaches the same diminishing point of video and they would be cooked. My $150 player I can buy anywhere would be as good as my $4k player. Cost of movies is a non factor since they cost about the same regardless of platform...if anything again K is at loss here since some seem to cost more. To be honest...streaming -vs- download is really not all big a deal...even here in Central Florida ..during major hurricane outages...I have power thru solar backup and generators and at least 2 or 3 ways to get streaming good enough for iTunes (its actually surprising to me how little bandwidth streaming a 4k movie uses). Again, looking at a 70-100gig download -vs- a stream that takes maybe 30-40Mbps...why are they so similar?...heck why does the 70-100gig one actually look worse sometimes?
The other factor is the lack of certain studios, and/or alternate cuts, etc...but I understand why that is and it has nothing to do with K or their encoding process...its mostly on the studios.
In a nutshell...the content is most important factor. I really think they need to focus hard on that side of things. Fix their encoding...scrap it...whatever but we simply should not be seeing these issues given the tech and conditions we have available with K. Figure out a way to work with studios...especially the boutique ones...K seems ideal for them.
I still want Kaleidescape to be the platform of choice when I buy a movie. I do not believe they are delivering on their marketing claims...that needs be fixed. Currently the only thing that keeps me with K is my obsession with audio quality.
I always knew about Kaleidescape, and was one of those that simply thought it was overpriced. At that time the single most expensive thing I had for my theater was the NP5...which is considered entry level by most here. At $9-$10k for price of admission, K was simply way out there. However, when the Strato V was announced ...that price of entry all the sudden was something I could handle. Up to 10 UHD Disc quality movies that I could get months before the disc at the ready?....yeah...I was on board....but I should have done more research instead of relying on the marketing and countless influencers. Honestly, in my theater, I have spent more effort on the audio side of things........and I am one that finds the quality of streaming audio to be pretty bad...lack of dynamic range is obvious. In that regard, Kaleidescape has been a godsend...they truly deliver on the "audio" side of being "the ultimate movie platform". The UI...I honestly put little importance on...as long as I can find and get to what I want to play quickly then I am good....i spend so little time looking at the UI screen that even the fact that the V is 1080 did not matter to me.
Then came the video aspect of things. This has been the most "disappointing" to me , not in the sense that it is bad but that is not any better than alternatives..including disc. I look at a $4k media player and think...ok this must be good....I look at the fact that they in theory start with the same source as itunes....do not have to worry about bandwidth or storage size...and yet the video is at best as good. Maybe its my lower end video system....could be. I simply do not understand why....same source, better hardware, less constraints...why do we have all the things that have been reported here and continue to exist in new releases?
What is the end product with K? To me the end product is what I see on my screen and what comes out of my speakers. Given the cost, quality of hardware and lack of constraints it simply should always be the best available...including disc.
Could be, tech in terms of video compression and streaming has reached diminishing return and thats its close enough to disc already. Its surely not the case for audio. If true then it concerns me...for K that all it would take is for Apple to offer lossless audio...or for a new audio compression codec to come out that reaches the same diminishing point of video and they would be cooked. My $150 player I can buy anywhere would be as good as my $4k player. Cost of movies is a non factor since they cost about the same regardless of platform...if anything again K is at loss here since some seem to cost more. To be honest...streaming -vs- download is really not all big a deal...even here in Central Florida ..during major hurricane outages...I have power thru solar backup and generators and at least 2 or 3 ways to get streaming good enough for iTunes (its actually surprising to me how little bandwidth streaming a 4k movie uses). Again, looking at a 70-100gig download -vs- a stream that takes maybe 30-40Mbps...why are they so similar?...heck why does the 70-100gig one actually look worse sometimes?
The other factor is the lack of certain studios, and/or alternate cuts, etc...but I understand why that is and it has nothing to do with K or their encoding process...its mostly on the studios.
In a nutshell...the content is most important factor. I really think they need to focus hard on that side of things. Fix their encoding...scrap it...whatever but we simply should not be seeing these issues given the tech and conditions we have available with K. Figure out a way to work with studios...especially the boutique ones...K seems ideal for them.
I still want Kaleidescape to be the platform of choice when I buy a movie. I do not believe they are delivering on their marketing claims...that needs be fixed. Currently the only thing that keeps me with K is my obsession with audio quality.
Furnace Inferno
Well-known member
We were discussing AppleTV and the image comparisons are often vs streaming so I’m commenting on the topics at hand. It’s also very relevant because it’s the only way to get a digital library with lossless audio without the hoops you have to jump through to backup discs. Plus how long that will continue to be possible is unknown even ignoring whether discs will stop being made because UHD drives are drying up and one of my drives has bit the dust and won’t read blurays anymore. Basically being locked out whether we like it or not!
@rafaelsmith I honestly don’t think any of the streamers care about audio at all. They could have improved the audio anytime they wanted, the bitrate is the same as DVD and yet the audio and dynamic range is still terrible. They purposely curtail everything to sound the way it does so that when it’s played back on mostly low quality audio setups like TV’s, laptops, phones etc. they’re able to produce all the sounds, have the voices audible and not need to adjust the volume for loud of quiet scenes.
Happy to be proven wrong but I don’t think the audio will ever be up to the standard of disc releases. They’re more likely to ruin disc releases Disney style to make streaming look better and make cinema the defacto audio experience!
You know, I had not thought about this. Its obvious that studios dislike streaming a VOD...they always have.... I can most definitely see them sabotaging streaming, discs...and by extension K in the hopes of encouraging people going to theaters. Will never work on me thou...I will give up movies if my only choice is to go out to theaters again. Since they hold all the cards when it comes to what and when K can have their titles...I would not put it past them.
FWIW, I don´t really see K comparing themselves to disc on their website. It´s always comparing to streaming. The one mention of disk I can find is for comapring bitrates.
Also in the dealer training, there´s no comparison to disk.
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Furnace Inferno
Well-known member
I’m with you on that, if all we had left was the audio quality of streaming, RIP any new movies for me! I’d just watch what I currently have, I’ve already done the math and I’m good for at least 10 year cycles before movies start repeating. I would have to consider making the cinema room into a multipurpose room instead though.
Let’s just hope it does not come to pass.