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About Strato V, Dolby Vision, and FEL

He had a couple theoretical examples where LLDV could be a better experience...

There is the possibility that the DV encode provides a higher quality encode for the video processor to work with, but this is yet to be demonstrated with any actual content.

There are a few cases where the DV version on Kaleidescape has an Atmos track, while the HDR10 version is a lesser format, though this would be expected as a temporary advantage, and of course it's an audio-related improvement vs video.
I’ve seen more issues with the LLDV option on the Lumagen thread thought. Needing to set specific max nits and then not behaving as expected with some players, elevated black level issues, breaking full fade to black with laser projectors.

It seems a bit too Wild West at the moment!

People mention they can see a difference between LLDV and HDR10 and think it has more colour or is brighter but ultimately if it’s not more accurate then it’s not actually better and we haven’t had a comparison vs. a DV mastering panel to know for sure like was done to sell DTM originally.

If someone had settings for my Firestick 4K Max, Zidoo and Kaleidescape that just worked no issues I’d probably update my Lumagen but right now I’m in the if it ain’t broke don’t fix it stage!
 
I’ve seen more issues with the LLDV option on the Lumagen thread thought. Needing to set specific max nits and then not behaving as expected with some players, elevated black level issues, breaking full fade to black with laser projectors.

It seems a bit too Wild West at the moment!

People mention they can see a difference between LLDV and HDR10 and think it has more colour or is brighter but ultimately if it’s not more accurate then it’s not actually better and we haven’t had a comparison vs. a DV mastering panel to know for sure like was done to sell DTM originally.

If someone had settings for my Firestick 4K Max, Zidoo and Kaleidescape that just worked no issues I’d probably update my Lumagen but right now I’m in the if it ain’t broke don’t fix it stage!
Technically, unless your display or projector are professionally calibrated, both HDR10 and DV will not be displayed accurately. That goes for SDR too.
 
Technically, unless your display or projector are professionally calibrated, both HDR10 and DV will not be displayed accurately. That goes for SDR too.
Mine was calibrated by Gordon for SDR, HDR and 3D so all good on that front, hence why I’m more reluctant to mess around with it when I know it’s perfect now.
 
Now I desperately want to read how The Dude (from The Big Lebowski) would explain this to me. I might have to go make a ChatGPT account...
Alright, man, let’s take it nice and easy. Kick back, maybe light up a little if that’s your vibe, and let’s mellow our way through this whole Dolby Vision thing.

So, here’s the deal, folks keep talkin’ about FEL and MEL like they’re some kind of big deal when it comes to Strato V, but I’m here to tell ya—Strato V’s playing its own game, man. It’s not about FEL or MEL, but hey, let’s break those down real quick so we’re all on the same page before we dive deeper. Just like when you’re passing around a joint, gotta make sure everyone’s on the same wavelength, you know?

Okay, first, let’s talk about FEL, or Full Enhancement Layer. Think of FEL like the primo stuff. You know, the really good bud with all the little extras—full flavor, deep color, the works. When you got FEL in your Dolby Vision setup, your player is adding a little extra magic to the movie. It’s like rolling a joint and adding a bit of kief on top—extra smooth, full effect, total vibe. The FEL adds back some of that fancy color info that was in the original, high-end 12-bit version of the movie, so everything looks super rich and smooth on your screen.

Now, MEL, or Minimum Enhancement Layer, is more like a basic joint. Still good, still gets you where you need to go, but without the extra kick. MEL is just the dynamic metadata—it’s like giving your TV some extra instructions to make the colors and brightness look better scene by scene. But it’s not the full experience, you’re not getting that extra flavor that comes with FEL. You’re watching the same movie, but maybe it’s like the difference between a mellow buzz and, you know, really hittin’ it hard.

Now, here’s where some folks are getting confused. People are saying, “Hey, Strato V doesn’t have FEL, man,” and yeah, technically, that’s true. But Strato V is not playing the same game, man. Strato V doesn’t even need FEL or MEL, ‘cause it’s running on something called Profile 5, not Profile 7 like those Blu-ray players. Think of it like switching up your stash—you don’t need to rely on the old setup anymore, you’ve got a better way to get there.

Profile 5 is like, "Hey man, why split the movie into different layers at all?" It just takes all that sweet, smooth 12-bit color info, converts it into this new format that’s super efficient, kinda like using a vape pen instead of rolling up. You get all the good stuff, but in a way that’s easier to handle, you know? It’s called ICtCp, but that’s just a fancy way of saying it knows how your eyes work and uses that to make the colors look just as good as if you were puffin' on some 12-bit green.

So, while Profile 7 with FEL splits the movie into layers, like having your base layer joint and then sprinkling some kief on top for the enhancement, Profile 5 just goes straight to the good stuff. It doesn’t need the extra layer ‘cause it’s already packed with everything you want right from the get-go. It’s like when you find that perfect strain that hits just right without needing to mix anything in. Strato V is vibing with that Profile 5 approach, man. It’s giving you all the smooth color and dynamic metadata in one single hit—no need for extras, no need for a second decoder or anything fancy.

And here’s the kicker, man: even though Strato V isn’t using FEL, it’s still giving you the same high-quality, smooth experience. It’s like whether you roll a joint with FEL or take a vape hit with Profile 5, you’re still getting to the same place, just using different methods, you dig? It’s all about what gets the job done.

Now, like with anything good, there’s a trade-off. Profile 5 doesn’t have that backward-compatible HDR10 base layer like Profile 7 does, so if you’re playing it on something like Strato C, it won’t work. But hey, sometimes you gotta choose between that universal joint you pass around at the party or keeping the good stuff for your personal stash, right? That’s just the way it is. Strato V decided to keep things simple, smooth, and just for Dolby Vision-capable players.

So, to sum it up for all my fellow chillers: when people say “Strato V doesn’t have FEL,” they’re kinda missing the point. Both FEL and Profile 5 are designed to get the best color and picture out of your movies, just taking different paths. Strato V doesn’t need the extra layer ‘cause it’s already got all the flavor baked in. And whether you’re watching with FEL or kicking back with Profile 5, it’s all gonna look good, man. Just like every method of enjoying the green has its place, so does Strato V’s approach.

Hope that clears it up, dude. Now, let’s just kick back and enjoy the ride. Peace.
 
I think the Snoop Dogg explanation would be quite similar for the Strat to the V.
 
The one thing the AI missed is that Profile 7 FEL is not just the detailed metadata, but also the "residual" color information to get back from 10 to 12 bits.

But wow. 🤯
I was almost more concerned with who taught the bot about baseball... an ace pitcher catching? fumbling ground balls?

Liked the technical breakdown, but as I think about it, really enjoying how a thread extolling the virtues of Profile 5 has turned into Profile 7 content.
 
The bit depth (12-bit) and the chroma subsampling (4:4:4) are actually not related in that way. The numbers in 4:4:4 don't refer to bits; they refer to pixels in a sampling grid and whether each individual pixel has its own chroma information or if the chroma is sampled across adjacent pixels.The 12-bit number refers to how much color resolution there is per color sample. So, for example, if you have one color sample that contains the color information for a cluster of 4 pixels, you may have 10 bits of data in that sample or 12 bits of data in that sample.

There are some useful diagrams here:

The AVC/HEVC/VVC decoders on the available Systems-on-Chip support 4:2:0 but not 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 chroma sampling, so Strato V will output 12-bit 4:2:0.
Hi Mike,

Is KScape considering offering full uncompressed movies in the store? Internet speeds support this now as I can D/L current DV movies in 5 min. How much larger are the original masters? What format are the masters? Can the Strato V playback the original uncompressed master film?
 
Hi Mike,

Is KScape considering offering full uncompressed movies in the store? Internet speeds support this now as I can D/L current DV movies in 5 min. How much larger are the original masters? What format are the masters? Can the Strato V playback the original uncompressed master film?
Pretty sure the fully uncompressed files are TB’s in size so still a long way off having uncompressed.
 
Hi Mike,

Is KScape considering offering full uncompressed movies in the store? Internet speeds support this now as I can D/L current DV movies in 5 min. How much larger are the original masters? What format are the masters? Can the Strato V playback the original uncompressed master film?

Arriraw, the file format used by the Arri Alexa cameras on film sets, is about 1TB per hour of footage at 2.5K, so in the ballpark of 8-10TB for an uncompressed movie. 16:9 2.8K ARRIRAW records at 1.34 Gigabit per second at 24fps. I don't think there's a Ruipro HDMI cable for that.

The mezzanine files Kaleidescape receives are (I believe) usually ProRes, which is between 8-15GB per minute, depending which flavor you use.

Now add lossless audio to that.
 
Arriraw, the file format used by the Arri Alexa cameras on film sets, is about 1TB per hour of footage at 2.5K, so in the ballpark of 8-10TB for an uncompressed movie. 16:9 2.8K ARRIRAW records at 1.34 Gigabit per second at 24fps. I don't think there's a Ruipro HDMI cable for that.
Well, I think we just cracked the code for how K can target the one-and-done and rental audiences while simultaneously selling lots of 123TB Terra Primes. Great work everyone! Someone get the notes over to the content team; they're going to save so much time on compression. :)
 
Well, I think we just cracked the code for how K can target the one-and-done and rental audiences while simultaneously selling lots of 123TB Terra Primes. Great work everyone! Someone get the notes over to the content team; they're going to save so much time on compression. :)
They could go brick and mortar and sell Compact Terras with a single uncompressed film. Talk about a STEELBOOK!!!!!
 
Leaving aside the file size, which is certainly a real issue as already mentioned, the other thing that I suspect would be a problem is content security. For 4K content, there are stringent content security measures built into our players and servers. But I suspect that even those measures would need to be enhanced before a licensor would be comfortable allowing something akin to a mezzanine file to be delivered to an end user.

So, yeah, probably not something that will happen soon.
 
@MikeKobb Putting this here since this is sort of the DV thread. Now this may already be part of the firmware update in the works right now but here is what I am seeing in my testing of DV on the V with an LG G2 and Denon x3800h (tested both through receiver and directly connected to tv). The DV signal is just sending SDR data in a DV wrapper to certain devices.

I used Force Awakens, duel in the forest scene, when Kylo is pointing his lightsaber at Finn telling him Anakin’s/Luke’s saber belongs to him. On the 4k disc the sabers are really juiced up, on the V in DV they are very dull and lacking in dynamic range. I also used an Apple TV latest version with the Disney+ persion to compare DV to DV and a similar difference was present. I then downloaded the HDR10 version on the V and that looked similar to the disc and Disney + version (lack of HDR10 metadata isn’t an issue on this test as the disc also lacks metadata, as is often the case with Disney discs).

Most likely this is related to whatever is causing the Denon to show the HDR line item as blank. When connected directly to the LG, the DV flag pops up whenever you pause, rewind or fast forward the movie which shouldn’t be the case. So something in the signal is broken and is likely causing the HDR info in the DV signal to be missing.

Let me know if I should send this over to tech support if they still need help finding the cause.
 
@MikeKobb Putting this here since this is sort of the DV thread. Now this may already be part of the firmware update in the works right now but here is what I am seeing in my testing of DV on the V with an LG G2 and Denon x3800h (tested both through receiver and directly connected to tv). The DV signal is just sending SDR data in a DV wrapper to certain devices.

I used Force Awakens, duel in the forest scene, when Kylo is pointing his lightsaber at Finn telling him Anakin’s/Luke’s saber belongs to him. On the 4k disc the sabers are really juiced up, on the V in DV they are very dull and lacking in dynamic range. I also used an Apple TV latest version with the Disney+ persion to compare DV to DV and a similar difference was present. I then downloaded the HDR10 version on the V and that looked similar to the disc and Disney + version (lack of HDR10 metadata isn’t an issue on this test as the disc also lacks metadata, as is often the case with Disney discs).

Most likely this is related to whatever is causing the Denon to show the HDR line item as blank. When connected directly to the LG, the DV flag pops up whenever you pause, rewind or fast forward the movie which shouldn’t be the case. So something in the signal is broken and is likely causing the HDR info in the DV signal to be missing.

Let me know if I should send this over to tech support if they still need help finding the cause.
Noticed the same thing with my Sony A90J with DV.
 
@MikeKobb Putting this here since this is sort of the DV thread. Now this may already be part of the firmware update in the works right now but here is what I am seeing in my testing of DV on the V with an LG G2 and Denon x3800h (tested both through receiver and directly connected to tv). The DV signal is just sending SDR data in a DV wrapper to certain devices.

I used Force Awakens, duel in the forest scene, when Kylo is pointing his lightsaber at Finn telling him Anakin’s/Luke’s saber belongs to him. On the 4k disc the sabers are really juiced up, on the V in DV they are very dull and lacking in dynamic range. I also used an Apple TV latest version with the Disney+ persion to compare DV to DV and a similar difference was present. I then downloaded the HDR10 version on the V and that looked similar to the disc and Disney + version (lack of HDR10 metadata isn’t an issue on this test as the disc also lacks metadata, as is often the case with Disney discs).

Most likely this is related to whatever is causing the Denon to show the HDR line item as blank. When connected directly to the LG, the DV flag pops up whenever you pause, rewind or fast forward the movie which shouldn’t be the case. So something in the signal is broken and is likely causing the HDR info in the DV signal to be missing.

Let me know if I should send this over to tech support if they still need help finding the cause.

This is basically my experience as well. It's just what I would describe as a flatter, more color muted picture. Some movies were close to the same and others were noticeably worse. As I expressed before, there wasn't a single instance where I felt there was a benefit of the DV copy so I now avoid it completely and just use HDR 10.
 
@MikeKobb Putting this here since this is sort of the DV thread. Now this may already be part of the firmware update in the works right now but here is what I am seeing in my testing of DV on the V with an LG G2 and Denon x3800h (tested both through receiver and directly connected to tv). The DV signal is just sending SDR data in a DV wrapper to certain devices.

I used Force Awakens, duel in the forest scene, when Kylo is pointing his lightsaber at Finn telling him Anakin’s/Luke’s saber belongs to him. On the 4k disc the sabers are really juiced up, on the V in DV they are very dull and lacking in dynamic range. I also used an Apple TV latest version with the Disney+ persion to compare DV to DV and a similar difference was present. I then downloaded the HDR10 version on the V and that looked similar to the disc and Disney + version (lack of HDR10 metadata isn’t an issue on this test as the disc also lacks metadata, as is often the case with Disney discs).

Most likely this is related to whatever is causing the Denon to show the HDR line item as blank. When connected directly to the LG, the DV flag pops up whenever you pause, rewind or fast forward the movie which shouldn’t be the case. So something in the signal is broken and is likely causing the HDR info in the DV signal to be missing.

Let me know if I should send this over to tech support if they still need help finding the cause.
Are you running your player with Dolby Vision configured for the standard "display-led" processing, or are you using "Low-latency" (source-led) processing?

You can confirm which mode the player is in by playing one of the affected movies, then going to your browser interface, opening settings for your player, and choosing the HDMI Capabilities option in the Video settings tab.
 
Are you running your player with Dolby Vision configured for the standard "display-led" processing, or are you using "Low-latency" (source-led) processing?

You can confirm which mode the player is in by playing one of the affected movies, then going to your browser interface, opening settings for your player, and choosing the HDMI Capabilities option in the Video settings tab.
It was definitely display led on the AVR as the signal info was RGB 8-bit. I’ll check later if it shows display led as well when connected directly to the tv, but both looked the same and had the same issues.
 
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