NEWS: Strato K Movie Player with 8K capability and new "4K Cinematic" full-chroma & higher bitrate support

[artur9]

... However, I’m only aware of two “bugs” with the Strato K — some 2.1 interoperability issues; and some reports of player conversions of DV to HDR10 are a bit overly bright. ...

The second issue should be easily addressable with a firmware fix. How likely is it that the reported 2.1 issues are "flawed hardware"-related and would require a new player?

 

[KDeering]

Yes, you are getting this issue; everybody does. My captures are unquestionable and show exactly what the player outputs during the conversion, unless the K uses a different method than the E, which is very unlikely.

And it is not a slight over-brightening; it is a major issue. For example, in Eraser, some shots are natively 1000 nits, but the player artificially boosts them to 4000 nits.

Then you have your display, a low-nit projector, so of course the difference will be smaller. But in reality, your player is incorrectly outputting a 4000-nit image and tone-mapping it to whatever brightness your display is capable of, instead of starting from the native 1000-nit image.

Converting DV5 to HDR10 is a simple operation and should in no way alter the dynamic range. We've had open-source algorithms (libplacebo) that have been doing this flawlessly for years. The fact that Kscape missed that issue, and worse, even called it an improvement in the firmware notes, is hilarious. At the same time, they didn't even mention the major fix for the block artifacts, which is far more important and affected practically every movie with bright white scenes.

Yeah, good catch on this, I hadn't thought about it from that angle. It actually calls a lot of other stuff into question. Examples:

In my setup if I evaluate with projector/video processor, the difference in output is just going to be tone mapped because my peak brightness of the display itself never changes. This would also make sense of the changes in intra scene contrast with some of these scenes as the tone mapping would likely push average down a bit for the headroom, which could make those parts of the image look darker. In the case of Cars/Moana, this actually makes the image look better subjectively.

But if I was doing this with say a 4000 nit flat panel that was tracking PQ perfectly, the difference in the images would be pretty drastic I imagine. This bears out in my friend's testing where he used a QD OLED and said there was a huge difference in brightness when looking at Cars in the two formats.

But this brings up something else completely. We don't know what type of display is being used by Kaleidescape for internal testing. So let's say they are using something like a LG OLED that has a peak white of say 800-1000 nits. They likely would not see the big jump in brightness because the display doesn't have a high enough peak to show it. You would want to do the testing with either a perfect 4000 nit display (like the new Sony grading monitors) or use a waveform to verify the output. So I could easily see this getting missed depending on the type of displays being used in their testing/evaluations. Just goes to show how easy it can be to miss stuff or have these issues if all variables are not taken into account.

Great info Rmarci, I appreciate it and look forward to your K testing.

 

[KDeering]

The second issue should be easily addressable with a firmware fix. How likely is it that the reported 2.1 issues are "flawed hardware"-related and would require a new player?

Could easily be firmware for their HDMI chip. HDMI 2.1 bugs are insanely common across a wide variety of AV products from TVs to AVRs and more. There has been a TON of growing pains with that format unfortunately.

 

[Rmarci]

But this brings up something else completely. We don't know what type of display is being used by Kaleidescape for internal testing.

I think Mike said they had many types of displays for different scenarios.

Anyway, even if they had a $50K mastering monitor, and no matter how good someone's eyes are, any conversion (DV Profile 5 to HDR10, or even a straight Dolby Vision/HDR10 encode) shouldn't be evaluated just by eyeballing two displays side by side. The only way to be 100% sure the output or the encode is correct is to pixel-peep a few lossless screenshots, as I do. This way, you're sure that the comparison is scientific and fully objective.

So let's say they are using something like a LG OLED that has a peak white of say 800-1000 nits. They likely would not see the big jump in brightness because the display doesn't have a high enough peak to show it.

Exactly, and the difference on my 2400nits G5 was drastic when comparing the DV to HDR10 conversion.

 

[KDeering]

Yeah, I think if you are doing this type of work (Kscape), you really should be verifying things on a scope of some sort that verifies the output definitively.

 

[Imakeller]

The second issue should be easily addressable with a firmware fix. How likely is it that the reported 2.1 issues are "flawed hardware"-related and would require a new player?

A hardware flaw would certainly be a worst case scenario. I’m hopeful for a firmware update that addresses it. This issue does raise questions about the extent of pre-launch beta-testing that was done with the K.

 

[KDeering]

A hardware flaw would certainly be a worst case scenario. I’m hopeful for a firmware update that addresses it. This issue does raise questions about the extent of pre-launch beta-testing that was done with the K.

Not trying to say there wasn't enough testing, but the problem with HDMI is that it can act dramatically different with different hardware connections and even with different cables. They have included AQ cables with the player and unfortunately in my experience I've seen A TON of issues with AQ cables in the field that are easily fixed with using something else. Hopefully most people don't have any issues, but I was like OH NO when I saw that cable in the box.

 

[Furnace Inferno]

I think Mike said they had many types of displays for different scenarios.

Anyway, even if they had a $50K mastering monitor, and no matter how good someone's eyes are, any conversion (DV Profile 5 to HDR10, or even a straight Dolby Vision/HDR10 encode) shouldn't be evaluated just by eyeballing two displays side by side. The only way to be 100% sure the output or the encode is correct is to pixel-peep a few lossless screenshots, as I do. This way, you're sure that the comparison is scientific and fully objective.


Exactly, and the difference on my 2400nits G5 was drastic when comparing the DV to HDR10 conversion.


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Slightly off-topic but that’s only on a 10% window, fullscreen brightness is still massively limited by ABL at ~350nits which is why LCDs are still a lot brighter in certain scenes.

We are still a long way off from consumer displays being able to display every HDR film as intended. True microLED looks like the best hope but it being affordable and widely available seems to be a pipe dream at this point!

 

[Rmarci]

ullscreen brightness is still massively limited by ABL at ~350nits which is why LCDs are still a lot brighter in certain scenes.

We are still a long way off from consumer displays being able to display every HDR film as intended.

Movies' average brightness is always very low, rarely higher than 100 nits. Hundreds of movie brightness levels are plotted here to confirm this.
Sustained high average brightness is usually just quick flashes or explosions lasting only a few frames, so you're never missing much.

350 nits at 100% and 2400 nits at 10% cover practically 95% of the content, and movies' average brightness will never get brighter. Colorists want their movies to look cinematic, not like sports footage or an animal documentary. In fact, there is barely any difference compared to SDR, and only the highlights are brighter in HDR.

The movie with the highest average FALL (don't confuse it with a single meaningless MaxFALL value) is Inside Out (only in DV), with just 231 nits which is insanely high compared to the other movies. Most of the top average brightness movies are animations, and the brightest average brightness I measured for a live-action movie is The Shallows, at only 101 nits. Even a movie considered bright by many like Mad Max has an average fall of just 54nits.

 

[Imakeller]

Not trying to say there wasn't enough testing, but the problem with HDMI is that it can act dramatically different with different hardware connections and even with different cables. They have included AQ cables with the player and unfortunately in my experience I've seen A TON of issues with AQ cables in the field that are easily fixed with using something else. Hopefully most people don't have any issues, but I was like OH NO when I saw that cable in the box.

Absolutely! Finicky cables are a nightmare. It’s not unusual for people here to have a signal chain with Strato, AVR/AVP, VP, and display. That’s a lot of HDMI cables that have to be “right”. The number of supposed 8K/48g/2.1 cables out there are way too many variables for K-scape to contend with in testing, so I cut them slack there.

However, there’s a fairly short list of elite hardware that should have been specifically tested to confirm 2.1 interoperability. That doesn’t mean K-scape has to have all that gear in-house. One post on this forum or e-mail to their dealers and they would quickly have a couple dozen beta-testers with the latest-and-greatest gear who would be very happy to conduct validation testing for them.

 

[rafaelsmith]

Not trying to say there wasn't enough testing, but the problem with HDMI is that it can act dramatically different with different hardware connections and even with different cables. They have included AQ cables with the player and unfortunately in my experience I've seen A TON of issues with AQ cables in the field that are easily fixed with using something else. Hopefully most people don't have any issues, but I was like OH NO when I saw that cable in the box.

Yeah, My V came with a PixelGen that has been great. Was sad to see them now going with AQ...I have lost count the number of friends that have had nothing bud trouble with very expensive AQ cables.

 

[Golfx]

Blue Jeans Cable is a trusted american made small family business that tests its cables and always provides excellent cables that are really reasonably priced

https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/hdmi-cables/hdmi-cable.htm.

 

[OCD2]

Yeah, My V came with a PixelGen that has been great. Was sad to see them now going with AQ...I have lost count the number of friends that have had nothing bud trouble with very expensive AQ cables.

The Pixelgens are great cables but come from Canada with a 36% tariff tacked on a few weeks after they are delivered.

 

[Imakeller]

Blue Jeans Cable is a trusted american made small family business that tests its cables and always provides excellent cables that are really reasonably priced

https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/hdmi-cables/hdmi-cable.htm.

I’ve bought audio and speaker cables from Blue Jeans in the past, and they’re a pleasure to deal with. However, for HDMI, I would specifically look for 2.1/8K/48g, not 2.0/4K/18g. Their Series 4 cables might be at the highest standard, but I would give them a call to confirm.

HDMI Cable from Blue Jeans Cable

 

[Broncowrangler]

Blue Jeans Cable is a trusted american made small family business that tests its cables and always provides excellent cables that are really reasonably priced

https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/hdmi-cables/hdmi-cable.htm.

I primarily use blue jeans speaker cable solutions in my HT. I can vouch for their quality. I’m sure their hdmi cables would also be of the same high standards.

 

[rafaelsmith]

The Pixelgens are great cables but come from Canada with a 36% tariff tacked on a few weeks after they are delivered.

lol probably still cheaper than AQ.

 

[Broncowrangler]

Reasonable minds can differ on the degree of improvement we are seeing with the K, or on the reasons we see what we see, but the K does deliver an improvement. When I played back scenes from 5 movies in both 4K HDR on a C, and the new 4K Cinematic on a K, for several non-AV related neighbors and friends, each at different times, in every case for every movie, they individually picked the content played back on the K. There was no "I think....," with their choice, there was no hedging, it was clear they favored the K content.

As usual, no matter what owners post regarding what they are seeing, there will always be the non-owners that put down their comments, challenge their beliefs, call it a placebo effect, call dealers biased, blame FOMO, etc., etc., all while they haven't even seen the product. But there are other non-owners that are just waiting for more technical info before making a decision. For those that need to examine the content from a technical numbers standpoint, go for it, post your findings, there's nothing wrong with that, it's part of the hobby as well, and also brings value to people that need that info before they make a decision.

The rest of us K owners, including us "biased" dealers , will continue to experience the improvements we see with our own eyes, whether that improvement is judged to be 1% or 10% as a simple subjective measurement, it's still an improvement, it's what we look for in this hobby.

Is the K player some major breakthrough that requires owners to sell off their current Strato player(s) to purchase a K, no, of course not, but it does add another level of quality to our systems by providing access to the 4K Cinematic content, and to my eyes improves other content as well, I'm still very satisfied with the other Strato players I own. I have two C's for sale, but those were for sale long before the K was announced, I'm keeping my other C's that support other displays.

I'm not aiming this comment at anyone, it's a general comment, and I don't disagree with those wanting to hear from those more technically skilled than the average owner. There is no reason for us disrespect each others decisions.

Jim

Brilliantly said. Couldn’t have put it across in a better manner.

Couldn’t agree more; It’s your money do what you please. You don’t want to buy, more power to you, but why is it necessary to justify that on a public space?

Secondly we shouldn’t disregard feedback of members as mere casual observations. I keep reading comments which imho, is slightly disparaging towards members who exhibit hints of excitement through their feedbacks. Stuff like “subjective feedback” or “lacking any objective evidence” and “hyperbole” keeps floating around. I feel slightly offended by that approach.

There are some of us who have been in involved in this hobby for over 4 decades; from the days of VHS/CRT to laser discs, DVD (don’t forget super DVD), HDdvd/bluray and so on. I suspect there is a modicum of expertise/acumen which might have been acquired while navigating through this evolving paradigm.

While I (and many others) don’t do this as a profession, I highly respect the importance and critical assessment of the professionals who do this for a living and most importantly as passion. It is a good point of reference for non professional folks. But that doesn’t mean we (enthusiasts) start to short change ourselves (and others) and our own unique competence in this field.

We all have something useful to contribute. Every opinion counts. With the K I know what I see and I love it. I’m not looking to seek objective validations to reinforce that.

 

[rafaelsmith]

Brilliantly said. Couldn’t have put it across in a better manner.

Couldn’t agree more; It’s your money do what you please. You don’t want to buy, more power to you, but why is it necessary to justify that on a public space?

Secondly we shouldn’t disregard feedback of members as mere casual observations. I keep reading comments which imho, is slightly disparaging towards members who exhibit hints of excitement through their feedbacks. Stuff like “subjective feedback” or “lacking any objective evidence” and “hyperbole” keeps floating around. I feel slightly offended by that approach.

There are some of us who have been in involved in this hobby for over 4 decades; from the days of VHS/CRT to laser discs, DVD (don’t forget super DVD), HDdvd/bluray and so on. I suspect there is a modicum of expertise/acumen which might have been acquired while navigating through this evolving paradigm.

While I (and many others) don’t do this as a profession, I highly respect the importance and critical assessment of the professionals who do this for a living and most importantly as passion. It is a good point of reference for non professional folks. But that doesn’t mean we (enthusiasts) start to short change ourselves (and others) and our own unique competence in this field.

We all have something useful to contribute. Every opinion counts. With the K I know what I see and I love it. I’m not looking to seek objective validations to reinforce that.

I still have my pioneer Laserdisc player and collection of platters...including OG Star Wars Trilogy.. Such fond memories.

 

[Imakeller]

I still have my pioneer Laserdisc player and collection of platters...including OG Star Wars Trilogy.. Such fond memories.

Here’s hoping the original trilogy (unedited) get released for the 50th anniversary next year and make it to the K Store too!

 

[Trevor]

Secondly we shouldn’t disregard feedback of members as mere casual observations. I keep reading comments which imho, is slightly disparaging towards members who exhibit hints of excitement through their feedbacks. Stuff like “subjective feedback” or “lacking any objective evidence” and “hyperbole” keeps floating around. I feel slightly offended by that approach.

There are some of us who have been in involved in this hobby for over 4 decades; from the days of VHS/CRT to laser discs, DVD (don’t forget super DVD), HDdvd/bluray and so on. I suspect there is a modicum of expertise/acumen which might have been acquired while navigating through this evolving paradigm.

Offended? Oh yeah...I was starting to get a bit miffed here too. Ended up sitting on my hands to keep things civil.

Just like many on this board, I've been chasing the best for years. (S)VHS on a 36" Sony WEGA CRT, DVD (Big ol' Superbit collection), Blu-Ray (Mastered in 4K collection to match), Sony's original FMP-X1 4K Player/download service, Samsung UHD video pack (obscure but I had to check it out!), 4K discs, now KScape.

I might have picked up a thing or two after 30+ years of critical viewing.