Bitstream Atmos audio delay (lip-sync issue)

[learrocket]

This cannot just be me. I know there has been other posts about it but I really need suggestions here.

If you have a setup like:

• Kaleidescape Strato E
• Consumer AVR (Denon 6800)
• Projector (Epson LS11000)

Can you honestly say Dolby Atmos lip sync is perfect?

I've spent days troubleshooting this and have now reached the point where I'm convinced the issue is related to Dolby Atmos / TrueHD bitstream processing. (downstream of the Stratos E)

Using movies like Michael and Ready Player One, the audio is clearly behind the image. Not a subtle "maybe" difference, but enough that it's impossible to watch.

The interesting part is that if I switch the Strato E to PCM, the problem disappears. Same movie, same projector, same AVR, same HDMI cables.

Kaleidescape support has actually been excellent and even called me directly to help troubleshoot, but we haven't found a solution. We've already ruled out the usual suspects like HDMI cables and basic settings. My conclusion is that this cant be fixed, unless you can delay the video with a Lumagen or similar? (Or skip Dolby Atmos).

So my question is:

Are there really thousands of Kaleidescape owners running Strato → Denon/Marantz → Projector and nobody notices this?

Or are most serious Kaleidescape users running Trinnov, StormAudio, Lumagen, madVR, etc., where additional delay compensation makes this a non-issue?

If you have a Strato and a consumer AVR, try this:

1. Play a movie with Dolby Atmos/TrueHD.
2. Pay attention to lip sync.
3. Switch to PCM.
4. Compare.

I would be shocked if I'm the only one seeing a massive difference.

Curious to hear from others with similar setups.

 

[josh]

I have a setup similar to that in one room: Kaleidescape V to Marantz 8802a to Sony OLED. I have NOT noticed lip sync issues on Atmos soundtracks, but that could be because I'm running video through the Marantz, not direct to the display, so maybe the marantz deliberately delays the video to match the audio processing delay, or maybe it's purely accidental but that it introduces a slight delay in both audio and video to the point where at least I don't notice it.

Are you running Strato E --> Display --> eARC bact to the Marantz for audio? If so, then I can see where that could introduce delays given the audio going first to the display then back out to the AVR for processing. you might try avoiding eARC to see if that's the issue... this would mean running Strato E-->Marantz-->Display, like I'm doing.

 

[learrocket]

I am running Strato E to AVR, HDMI. from AVR to Projector. so no eARC I guess? Just from AVR to Projector. If I add things like image processing (forgot what is called on the projector but make the movie look like a soap opera), yes then its actually way better because I guess that takes some processing to do for the projector so its delaying the video a bit, but thats unwatchable too, cant watch movies looking like they where recorded on a VCR

 

[josh]

I am running Strato E to AVR, HDMI. from AVR to Projector. so no eARC I guess? Just from AVR to Projector.

ok, then similar to me. i don't have an explanation... I don't think i'm super oblivious to lipsync issues, I know I've had either source devices or content things in the past that caused it and it did bother me to the point of having to solve it with settings in the AVR.

 

[Kabillyhop]

I am running Strato E to Anthem AVM to JVC projector and have never noticed any lip sync issues with any material. I think I would notice because I have always found even small lip sync discrepancies very annoying.

 

[learrocket]

I am running Strato E to Anthem AVM to JVC projector and have never noticed any lip sync issues with any material. I think I would notice because I have always found even small lip sync discrepancies very annoying.

I assume you play bitstream audio out from the Strato not PCM?

 

[Kabillyhop]

I assume you play bitstream audio out from the Strato not PCM?

Yes, bitstream.

 

[oracle64]

I encountered the same issue.
Strato E -> Anthem AVM70 -> Epson LS10500

My solution was to add an HDFury Vertex 2 between the AVM and the projector.

 

[rafaelsmith]

I am one that has always been sensitive to the slightest bit of lip-sync errors and with my Strato V->Marantz Cinema 30->JVC RS1100/NP5 I do not notice any at all.

 

[learrocket]

I encountered the same issue.
Strato E -> Anthem AVM70 -> Epson LS10500

My solution was to add an HDFury Vertex 2 between the AVM and the projector.

Do you mind sharing what settings etc. I am not familiar with HDFury? I see they have a Vroom 8K for just a little more as well? Is there a specific video delay function or how does it work?

 

[learrocket]

I am one that has always been sensitive to the slightest bit of lip-sync errors and with my Strato V->Marantz Cinema 30->JVC RS1100/NP5 I do not notice any at all.

Interesting to see so far is that its only us with Epson Projectors that have encountered this problem...

 

[rafaelsmith]

Interesting to see so far is that its only us with Epson Projectors that have encountered this problem...

I have no experience with Epson...does it have audio/speakers? JVC do not. If the Epson does have audio then maybe..even thou its not being used some sorta video-audio syncing processing is being done at the projector? i.e its the video that ends up out of sync.

 

[learrocket]

I have no experience with Epson...does it have audio/speakers? JVC do not. If the Epson does have audio then maybe..even thou its not being used some sorta video-audio syncing processing is being done at the projector? i.e its the video that ends up out of sync.

Not sure, but the problem again is that the video is too fast. Normally it's video that is late so all AVRs etc have delay for audio but not for video. If I turn on Epson's Frame Interpolation (the "soap opera effect") the out of sync disappears (or becomes much better).
The projector has to analyze frames and create new ones.
That adds video processing time.
The video arrives later.
The lip-sync gets better or fixed.

But unfortunately I cannot watch a movie that looks like it's filmed on a VCR camera. Maybe the JVC is just a bit slower in processing the image and luckily fixing this problem? or its something else? But I am considering to change my Epson LS11000 to a JVC - DLANZ500, might be a better choice anyways?
Cuz after watching movies and hear the sound of the Kaleidescape I cannot go back to Apple TV the sound is terrible with Apple TV.

 

[rafaelsmith]

But I am considering to change my Epson LS11000 to a JVC - DLANZ500, might be a better choice anyways?
Cuz after watching movies and hear the sound of the Kaleidescape I cannot go back to Apple TV the sound is terrible with Apple TV.

Like I mentioned I have no experience with Epson....but when I was picking my projector I did get to compare a LS12000 and the RS1100 and it was not even a fight...the JVC was the clear winner...especially when it came to black levels...or in the case of the Epson...more like a "blue' level.

Do you have a flat panel TV to test with to see if the sync problem is just with the Epson?

Also, I agree 100% with the audio-side of things....I hate when there is something only available on Apple TV or some other service that we want to watch....i know the sound is gonna suck.

 

[oracle64]

Do you mind sharing what settings etc. I am not familiar with HDFury? I see they have a Vroom 8K for just a little more as well? Is there a specific video delay function or how does it work?

The HDFury just responds with EDID spoofing that reports the projector is a display device with Dolby Vision supported.
It didn’t require any lip-sync adjustments to be added anywhere.

I am also wondering if this is an Epson issue.

 

[learrocket]

The HDFury just responds with EDID spoofing that reports the projector is a display device with Dolby Vision supported.
It didn’t require any lip-sync adjustments to be added anywhere.

I am also wondering if this is an Epson issue.

Hmm Got one today and tried, couldn't get it to work. Guess I will try a JVC projector next!

 

[Furnace Inferno]

Hmm Got one today and tried, couldn't get it to work. Guess I will try a JVC projector next!

I used to have a Denon X4400 and Epson LS10500 and didn’t have any issues like yours, in fact the Denon removed any lipsync issues. Once I switched to a Lyngdorf processor I had to set the lipsync delay myself.

I did also get an HDFury due to that model having a HDMI 1.4 chipset and maxing out at 18Gbps which was an issue getting HDR with some devices. It’s a bit finicky to setup but you just have to get it in the right mode to passthrough everything in your case.

Back to your issue though, could you take pictures of all your settings screens to show us how you’ve got it setup because it sounds like there’s just one thing messing it all up on either the Epson or the AVR?

Also is it all devices playing Atmos or just the Kaleidescape? AppleTV is DD+ Atmos so may not show it.

 

[Furnace Inferno]

Also to add to the above what have you tried changing so far?

 

[learrocket]

Also to add to the above what have you tried changing so far?

So I do not have the problem with Apple TV Atmos, (most likely due to the DD+ so Denon can process it faster I guess?) I have tried some things like removing the Audyssey calibration but no change.

so here I did a full test. I used a monitor to remove all kind of lag from the projector. Note that the sound is a bit after the appearing text but I guess thats just milliseconds so it fine. also I think the apple stereo (number 9) and the K-Scape PCM stereo (number 2) is very bang on. (especially the third time the text appear its almost totally in sync.)

1 K-Scape - monitor (with headphones) - Atmos True HD
2 K-Scape - monitor (with headphones) - PCM stereo

3 K-Scape - Denon - Atmos True HD
4 K-Scape - Denon - PCM stereo


5 Apple TV - Monitor (with headphones) - Atmos

6 Apple TV - Denon - Atmos
7 Apple TV - Denon - Dolby 5.1
8 Apple TV - Denon - Stereo

9 Apple TV - Monitor (with headphones) - Stereo



So also K-scape direct to monitor with atmos is also later sound than PCM stereo, not sure if this is a formatting issue (when they convert sound?)
But as you can see and hear, K-scape atmos via monitor and Apple TV Atmos via monitor are different. K-scape atmos is later.
Apple TV atmos monitor vs Apple TV atmos Denon, Denon is later.

so if Denon adds processing time for atmos, then Kaleidescape adds as well (maybe just this movie) the result is large when I do kaleidescape atmos via denon. (number 1)

I will test with some other movies after I go shopping with my wife (this can take a while...)

Michael sync test

 

[Furnace Inferno]

So I do not have the problem with Apple TV Atmos, (most likely due to the DD+ so Denon can process it faster I guess?) I have tried some things like removing the Audyssey calibration but no change.

so here I did a full test. I used a monitor to remove all kind of lag from the projector. Note that the sound is a bit after the appearing text but I guess thats just milliseconds so it fine. also I think the apple stereo (number 9) and the K-Scape PCM stereo (number 2) is very bang on. (especially the third time the text appear its almost totally in sync.)

1 K-Scape - monitor (with headphones) - Atmos True HD
2 K-Scape - monitor (with headphones) - PCM stereo

3 K-Scape - Denon - Atmos True HD
4 K-Scape - Denon - PCM stereo


5 Apple TV - Monitor (with headphones) - Atmos

6 Apple TV - Denon - Atmos
7 Apple TV - Denon - Dolby 5.1
8 Apple TV - Denon - Stereo

9 Apple TV - Monitor (with headphones) - Stereo



So also K-scape direct to monitor with atmos is also later sound than PCM stereo, not sure if this is a formatting issue (when they convert sound?)
But as you can see and hear, K-scape atmos via monitor and Apple TV Atmos via monitor are different. K-scape atmos is later.
Apple TV atmos monitor vs Apple TV atmos Denon, Denon is later.

so if Denon adds processing time for atmos, then Kaleidescape adds as well (maybe just this movie) the result is large when I do kaleidescape atmos via denon. (number 1)

I will test with some other movies after I go shopping with my wife (this can take a while...)

Michael sync test

What are you settings on the Denon? Kaleidescape doesn’t have any changeable settings so if it’s happening on the monitor then it can only be the Denon.

What are you settings for stuff like ARC/eARC, auto lipsync, Dolby loudness etc. and then have you checked the individual settings per hdmi input?

Also things like HDMI control/CEC, video mode (where it switches to specific presets), the upscaled, signal format etc.

What sound modes do you have set as well?

Do you have anything else other displays other than the Denon plugged in normally? If yes which HDMI output is set as the primary one?

It could be it’s picking up a bad EDID and not syncing properly, have you tried unplugging all HDMI cables and powering off, leaving it for a bit and plugging them all back in and turning on as this would reset any EDID?