OLED vs Projector opinions

[Furnace Inferno]

I disagree, as I think there will be a huge market once they figure out how to mass produce, solve the audio issues and simplify installation none of which is that difficult.

Customers will love the huge image (modular with no difficulty getting into the apartment or house), high resolution, high contrast in well lit rooms with no need for a black cave or dedicated room. Others will suddenly be interested in 3D which is barely available today. Watch what happens when the price drops to $50K which is likely not far from what you've spent on a NZ900, video processor, and screen not to mention the dedicated bat cave you probably built. Plus these walls will be ideal for TV, gaming and movies all in a simple to use format. I have an expensive projector like you do and I expect that market to disappear. I think video walls will be here in abundance within 5-10 years.

Is anyone looking to simplify it?

The key issue of panel alignment isn’t something I think can be easily solved otherwise they would have already, along with general panel differences creating issues with how the final screen looks.

I wish I had a NZ900, only a NZ8 for me. Whilst the walls are of interest technologically, they wouldn’t work in my room as they’ll never be acoustically transparent. I’d have to have the speakers on the floor and the screen up against the ceiling to fit the same size screen and I definitely wouldn’t ever accept that audio compromise.

Even with a screen I’d still black out the room cause I don’t like anything lighting up and reflecting in front of me. I want to be fully immersed and also wouldn’t want any screen reflections off lighter things which I get now from things behind the sofa which reflect and as the screen size and light being thrown into the room increases that only makes things worse. I know a fully blacked out room isn’t for everyone but I love it!

I’m still not convinced, microLED prototypes wwre first shown nearly 15 years ago and video walls were 10 years ago and they still haven’t come to market in any mass produced way.

They just keep giving us different versions of LED backlit LCDs and for the most part no real increase in number of zones because it costs too much to build. I mean we even went backwards for a while when they switched to the edge-lit nonsense.

I’d love to be wrong because I really want a 65” microLED for the living room but still waiting!

 

[JonProphet]

I disagree, as I think there will be a huge market once they figure out how to mass produce, solve the audio issues and simplify installation none of which is that difficult.

Customers will love the huge image (modular with no difficulty getting into the apartment or house), high resolution, high contrast in well lit rooms with no need for a black cave or dedicated room. Others will suddenly be interested in 3D which is barely available today. Watch what happens when the price drops to $50K which is likely not far from what you've spent on a NZ900, video processor, and screen not to mention the dedicated bat cave you probably built. Plus these walls will be ideal for TV, gaming and movies all in a simple to use format. I have an expensive projector like you do and I expect that market to disappear. I think video walls will be here in abundance within 5-10 years.

"Not far", lol. That's $25K difference. What world do you live in? Tell me how people with OLED or other panel TV's aren't using Video Processors.

I had someone else tell me that Video Walls are the next big thing and coming soon. I just laughed. Yeah, they are coming, but its a ways off. 10 years+ is not soon.

 

[LoveCinema]

But I’m really missing the 3d movies from my old projector.

I still highly recommend grabbing an Apple Vision Pro for 3D movies. You can use it in the theater and just enlarge it over your current screen. With an Apple TV and a bit of setup you can sync the audio to send to your theater system. Obviously single viewer, but the image quality exceeds any other 3D capable display,

 

[Broncowrangler]

I have the Xgimi titan noir max (kickstarter) which I picked up specifically for its 3d capabilities and form factor. I have a massive 3d collection.

It’s the best (and brightest) 3d projector I’ve ever owned. Not bad for regular movies either, whenever I want to give the JvC a break. Can hang with most $$$ / high end brands. Plus native Dolby vision support and decent built in DTM. Highly recommend for 3D fans out there.

 

[DieZwei]

I had someone else tell me that Video Walls are the next big thing and coming soon. I just laughed. Yeah, they are coming, but its a ways off. 10 years+ is not soon.

In the highend market they are already there. People willing to spend 6-figures on a projector are more and more looking at LED walls.
The reason why LED walls are not going down in price that much is that the technology is still evolving with each new generation. So the product gets better, but the price stays the same.
But we´re now getting to a point where it can´t get much better, so the next step is to manufacture the existing technology cheaper and more installer friendly.
There are also solutions available to do auto-align the cabinets, but this also still relatively new (hence expensive) technology. But this will evolve over time as well.

EDIT:

"Not far", lol. That's $25K difference.

He said: "NZ900, video processor, and screen not to mention the dedicated bat cave you probably built."
NZ900 is 25K, video processor 10-25KEU, screen 5-50KEU, light controlled room xKEU.
However, to be fair, with the current products available, you still need a videoprocessor for an LED-wall.

 

[JonProphet]

In the highend market they are already there. People willing to spend 6-figures on a projector are more and more looking at LED walls.
The reason why LED walls are not going down in price that much is that the technology is still evolving with each new generation. So the product gets better, but the price stays the same.
But we´re now getting to a point where it can´t get much better, so the next step is to manufacture the existing technology cheaper and more installer friendly.
There are also solutions available to do auto-align the cabinets, but this also still relatively new (hence expensive) technology. But this will evolve over time as well.

EDIT:

He said: "NZ900, video processor, and screen not to mention the dedicated bat cave you probably built."
NZ900 is 25K, video processor 10-25KEU, screen 5-50KEU, light controlled room xKEU.
However, to be fair, with the current products available, you still need a videoprocessor for an LED-wall.

With most “high end” end users using Mad VR, I was estimating $10K which is moot because Panel and Wall guys are using anyhow. It’s a wash. No?

Most HT applications are still building a dedicated room, light controlled or not. Still doing room treatments. Still a wash in my opinion. I’m probably wrong.

I understand manufacturing, scaling and pricing of technologies. I still stand by my statement you won’t see vid walls in the main stream in the mid range for a long time. Mid range being being the $5K to $15k display device.

They’ve had video walks for 10 years already, no? If they would hit main stream we’d have seen it by now. Just my opinion.

Obviously, I’m not the target audience as I’m looking for the overall experience of a darkened room replicating the theater and panels/video walls just can’t do that.

 

[LoveCinema]

I have the Xgimi titan noir max (kickstarter) which I picked up specifically for its 3d capabilities and form factor. I have a massive 3d collection... Not bad for regular movies either, whenever I want to give the JvC a break.

So you prefer the Titan Noir's 3D to the NZ800's? I would have thought the JVC's 4K-upscaling, lack of RBE, better blacks/contrast/image, and superior motion handling (alongside available interpolation) would make it a clear winner. However, I must say I've been very curious about some of the latest DLP projectors and the Titan Noir in particular. I believe they're looking into the 3:2 vs. 5:5 pulldown issue which should make a noticeable difference, so I'm hoping they address that soon and I can evaluate the projector afterwards.

 

[DieZwei]

I understand manufacturing, scaling and pricing of technologies. I still stand by my statement you won’t see vid walls in the main stream in the mid range for a long time. Mid range being being the $5K to $15k display device.

They’ve had video walks for 10 years already, no? If they would hit main stream we’d have seen it by now. Just my opinion.

Yep - all good. I guess we just have different definitions of "next big thing".
If your definition is "mass market" and "5 - 15K", then I´ll definitely agree with you.
My definition is more like "the technology is mature and a major step forward in terms of image quality and is something people spending in the range of 35-50K for a projector+screen setup would seriously want to get".

 

[JonProphet]

Yep - all good. I guess we just have different definitions of "next big thing".
If your definition is "mass market" and "5 - 15K", then I´ll definitely agree with you.
My definition is more like "the technology is mature and a major step forward in terms of image quality and is something people spending in the range of 35-50K for a projector+screen setup would seriously want to get".

I agree I think we are on the same page and sort of discussing the same point. At the end of the day, its still 4K source material. 8K still hasn't been adopted even partially. Yes, there are media players and some devices can display but the media is the stopping point. Are there any 8K cameras yet? I'm sure IMAX will probably be the first to drop the bomb and I hope so.

The next big thing will be panels and projectors doing native 8K.

I'd love to see a video wall demo in 8K.

Last point, the person I talked to was abandoning projector sales in favor of the incoming video wall products. Not completely but he was saying he was recommending video wall installs vs. projector for custom HT customers. I'm also talking like a month ago. That's why I laughed. This was a custom install shop. No show room, direct to customer.

P.S. I saw someone install a video wall (over on AVSForum, nope it was here) for his room which was blindingly bright. He went directly to the manufacturer and I'm not sure who did the install but he noted he still spent $50K on the video wall and I don't believe it was that big. Pictures looked impressive but internet photo's and cameras can be deceiving.

 

[DieZwei]

The next big thing will be panels and projectors doing native 8K.

TBH, I´m not sure we´ll see 8K projectors for the consumer home cinema market at all.
LED-walls with 8K are already there. It´s just a question of pixel pitch and the size of the wall as that has a direct impact on screen resolution.
You just need to add cabinets to get to your desired resolution. So if you don´t want to be huge in screen size, the pixel pitch needs to go down. The lower the pixel pitch, the more expensive. There again, spiral of death.

Last point, the person I talked to was abandoning projector sales in favor of the incoming video wall products. Not completely but he was saying he was recommending video wall installs vs. projector for custom HT customers.

Well, depends on the target customers. If somebody is in for a 100K+ Christie or Barco projector, I´d also seriously recommend to have a closer look at an LED-wall. However, at the end, the customer decides.

 

[Furnace Inferno]

So you prefer the Titan Noir's 3D to the NZ800's? I would have thought the JVC's 4K-upscaling, lack of RBE, better blacks/contrast/image, and superior motion handling (alongside available interpolation) would make it a clear winner. However, I must say I've been very curious about some of the latest DLP projectors and the Titan Noir in particular. I believe they're looking into the 3:2 vs. 5:5 pulldown issue which should make a noticeable difference, so I'm hoping they address that soon and I can evaluate the projector afterwards.

I would be very surprised if the motion handling on JVC is superior given we are talking LCoS vs. DLP and DLP natively has much higher motion resolution like comparing plasma to LCD. I use the lowest level of motion interpolation on the JVC when watching 3D otherwise I find the 3D breaks down with the blur which I never used in my 3D plasma and suspect DLP would be the same.

For gaming and 3D those DLP’s are very compelling and with 3D in particular once you have the polarised glasses black levels don’t matter as much.

 

[Broncowrangler]

So you prefer the Titan Noir's 3D to the NZ800's? I would have thought the JVC's 4K-upscaling, lack of RBE, better blacks/contrast/image, and superior motion handling (alongside available interpolation) would make it a clear winner. However, I must say I've been very curious about some of the latest DLP projectors and the Titan Noir in particular. I believe they're looking into the 3:2 vs. 5:5 pulldown issue which should make a noticeable difference, so I'm hoping they address that soon and I can evaluate the projector afterwards.

Horses for courses; for 3d you need a light cannon (black levels is not a big issue) and the TN fits the bill. For everything else JvC is supreme.

 

[JonProphet]

TBH, I´m not sure we´ll see 8K projectors for the consumer home cinema market at all.
LED-walls with 8K are already there. It´s just a question of pixel pitch and the size of the wall as that has a direct impact on screen resolution.
You just need to add cabinets to get to your desired resolution. So if you don´t want to be huge in screen size, the pixel pitch needs to go down. The lower the pixel pitch, the more expensive. There again, spiral of death.

Well, depends on the target customers. If somebody is in for a 100K+ Christie or Barco projector, I´d also seriously recommend to have a closer look at an LED-wall. However, at the end, the customer decides.

This was a small market dealer 500K population with the primary employer being a university. I can't speak to how successful they are or what their customer base is...... but its not Chicago, Cincinnati, NYC, Nashville, etc...... They also have a lot of competition in the space with a long time dealer being there for over 30+ years.

 

[DieZwei]

This was a small market dealer 500K population with the primary employer being a university. I can't speak to how successful they are or what their customer base is...... but its not Chicago, Cincinnati, NYC, Nashville, etc...... They also have a lot of competition in the space with a long time dealer being there for over 30+ years.

Hm, ok. Can´t comment much on this specific case. But this sounds more like a commercial integrator. Requirements and prices for commercial installs are pretty different to residential, but I know commercial clients hate projectors.

 

[JonProphet]

Hm, ok. Can´t comment much on this specific case. But this sounds more like a commercial integrator. Requirements and prices for commercial installs are pretty different to residential, but I know commercial clients hate projectors.

100% not commercial. I don't move in the commercial install environment. My circle is 100% residential.

And now that I think about it. I did get a view of a video wall 10 to 12 years ago on a commercial install at the home office/plant of a manufacturer that is locally owned. They were on "tanked" for their shark tank. The wall was large, bright, etc. Not sure on the resolution but I did get to see it installed. Was it impressive, sure. I'm sure they are still using it. I'm sure I could probably call a friend and get another viewing to see if they have upgraded.

Btw, I'm no poopoo'n video walls. I think any new technology brought to market will obviously increase options and likely drive down prices. I just learned the last Laserdics player was manufactured long after the last disc was released, last night.

 

[DieZwei]

100% not commercial. I don't move in the commercial install environment. My circle is 100% residential.

Ah, I misunderstood the part "primary employer being a university" - I mistranslated that into "client/customer".

 

[JonProphet]

Ah, I misunderstood the part "primary employer being a university" - I mistranslated that into "client/customer".

Ah yeah, no I was saying in a town of 600K the major employer and cash flow into said town is from the university. They do have some other industry but it's mainly that university that drives the economy. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but as I said, it's not a diverse economic town with, what I'm assuming, is limited deep pockets for big ticket residential installs.

 

[OCD2]

For you non-believers who have probably read nothing of the current state of this technology, please do a search for

"Wallhalla's Aquatic planet Poseidon project" which is well documented on other forums. I don't know this guy (he frequents the Kscape Owner Forum) but I believe he is a very high end dealer in Miami who is considered to be ahead of his time in home theater. Way out of my price range but look at videos that contain his customers impressions. There is also a series of posts by a residential guy in Tampa who built one himself - still too expensive for me but I believe in 5 years the price will be half of what it is today (similar to price drops in 115" panels) and the major challenges will be resolved. (sorry for the bold but I can't get the font right).​

One other comment. Those of you who believe that the future of home theater is dedicated rooms are living in a dream world. Perhaps it is for a miniscule number of customers. Time and time again, I read that home theaters rarely increase the value of a home but rather are intimidating to most home buyers and not what people are looking for except in very high end markets which are miniscule in size compared to the rest of the market. I suspect most of the owners on this forum have flat panels rather than projectors. I think DieZwei who works in the high end market is more knowledgeable so I will defer to him for where he sees this business going.

BTW, look at what Barco is now offering in the residential market. Watch the YouTube on Barco's Runar HDR video wall.

It's simply a matter of time for the tech to advance and prices to drop. I've had 4 projectors over 20 years but suspect I will be looking very closely at video wall technology for my next big purchase. Video Walls are similar to AI. It's coming whether or not everyone agrees.

 

[Furnace Inferno]

For you non-believers who have probably read nothing of the current state of this technology, please do a search for

"Wallhalla's Aquatic planet Poseidon project" which is well documented on other forums. I don't know this guy (he frequents the Kscape Owner Forum) but I believe he is a very high end dealer in Miami who is considered to be ahead of his time in home theater. Way out of my price range but look at videos that contain his customers impressions. There is also a series of posts by a residential guy in Tampa who built one himself - still too expensive for me but I believe in 5 years the price will be half of what it is today (similar to price drops in 115" panels) and the major challenges will be resolved. (sorry for the bold but I can't get the font right).​

One other comment. Those of you who believe that the future of home theater is dedicated rooms are living in a dream world. Perhaps it is for a miniscule number of customers. Time and time again, I read that home theaters rarely increase the value of a home but rather are intimidating to most home buyers and not what people are looking for except in very high end markets which are miniscule in size compared to the rest of the market. I suspect most of the owners on this forum have flat panels rather than projectors. I think DieZwei who works in the high end market is more knowledgeable so I will defer to him for where he sees this business going.

BTW, look at what Barco is now offering in the residential market. Watch the YouTube on Barco's Runar HDR video wall.

It's simply a matter of time for the tech to advance and prices to drop. I've had 4 projectors over 20 years but suspect I will be looking very closely at video wall technology for my next big purchase. Video Walls are similar to AI. It's coming whether or not everyone agrees.

Pretty sure most people who have KScape are rocking projectors, the standalone E, V and K, along with DV have brought in more TV users but the kind of places Kaleidescape is predominantly being installed are dedicated rooms integrated into full room control.

I still don’t agree with your thoughts on mass market and affordability. If we think back to the first plasma it was the equivalent of about $30K in today’s money for a 42” and it only took 5/6 years to come down to being affordable for the average enthusiast. Larger screens don’t cost much more to manufacture, they just take up production capacity because of the larger screens being cut and with TV sales declining having more very large screens selling at a higher margin makes sense.

The prices have come down on the video walls but to suggest most people will be going for one in the future bringing the cost down is wishful thinking because that is the only thing which would make it affordable. I’ll agree that most people don’t want a dedicated blacked out space but most people also don’t want a screen that takes up the entire wall and is the focal point of the room or speakers on every surface so I just don’t see it.

That dude spending $50K on the video wall from China and then pairing it with a Sonos soundbar was depressing to see, that thing can’t even do DTS-X/DTS-HD! Walhalla is an interesting guy but I wouldn’t personally go for any of his designs very much form over function but that’s what some people want rather than sitting in a blacked out room with no windows and I can’t fault them if they want a different environment to watch movies. It is however important to remember that even on a TV HDR in particular is meant to be watched in a dark room, not with huge windows and light pouring in.

Also what does house price have to do with anything? I thought we were having a HT system because we love it not to make $$$ on a possible future sale. Like buying a new car all our AV gear depreciates instantly so wouldn’t be a wise way to try and make money anyway!

I do worry about what is going to happen with projectors though, high end JVC has already increased massively compared to where we were 10 years ago and outside of the Chinese DLP’s the prices on all the big brands have increased significantly and I wouldn’t say anything over $10K is particularly affordable when comparing to TV’s.

 

[JonProphet]

Pretty sure most people who have KScape are rocking projectors, the standalone E, V and K, along with DV have brought in more TV users but the kind of places Kaleidescape is predominantly being installed are dedicated rooms integrated into full room control.

I still don’t agree with your thoughts on mass market and affordability. If we think back to the first plasma it was the equivalent of about $30K in today’s money for a 42” and it only took 5/6 years to come down to being affordable for the average enthusiast. Larger screens don’t cost much more to manufacture, they just take up production capacity because of the larger screens being cut and with TV sales declining having more very large screens selling at a higher margin makes sense.

The prices have come down on the video walls but to suggest most people will be going for one in the future bringing the cost down is wishful thinking because that is the only thing which would make it affordable. I’ll agree that most people don’t want a dedicated blacked out space but most people also don’t want a screen that takes up the entire wall and is the focal point of the room or speakers on every surface so I just don’t see it.

That dude spending $50K on the video wall from China and then pairing it with a Sonos soundbar was depressing to see, that thing can’t even do DTS-X/DTS-HD! Walhalla is an interesting guy but I wouldn’t personally go for any of his designs very much form over function but that’s what some people want rather than sitting in a blacked out room with no windows and I can’t fault them if they want a different environment to watch movies. It is however important to remember that even on a TV HDR in particular is meant to be watched in a dark room, not with huge windows and light pouring in.

Also what does house price have to do with anything? I thought we were having a HT system because we love it not to make $$$ on a possible future sale. Like buying a new car all our AV gear depreciates instantly so wouldn’t be a wise way to try and make money anyway!

I do worry about what is going to happen with projectors though, high end JVC has already increased massively compared to where we were 10 years ago and outside of the Chinese DLP’s the prices on all the big brands have increased significantly and I wouldn’t say anything over $10K is particularly affordable when comparing to TV’s.

Most of his thoughts and opinions are his...... and he's entitled to them. I'm sure they resonate with him and possibly his own interests more so. He's grasping at straw arguments to try and prove his point and that is fairly evident. It's falling on deaf ears and he's failing to read the room and not to mention his overall tenor of his posts are negative in tone. Further, my poll I posted has over 50 responses with +1 with projector users. That is a snap shot in time and not scientific but still holds value.

My HT is in my basement that was a multi purpose room that I moved to a more permanent install. If resale was a concern of mine, I wouldn't have done it. Resale has 0 influence on my decision for this space. Reclaiming this space for another purpose in the future does. I didn't build this house and if I were building, I probably would design it with a room in the basement that was more geared toward a HT room but would have some flexibility for other uses.

I get holding on to a thought or idea until death but some posts and some posters are here create faux controversy and create more drama that is unnecessary. Again, my opinion and its unfortunate people like to behave in this manner.