Special Features Question

[TrackZ]

Can someone with a K system confirm something for me? Specially, movie special features. They openly claim that if content was on the disc, it's available in the store.

While browsing though, I see a great many movies with information that do not list special features. Back to the Future is a good example. All 3 films are available in their store, but none list any special features. The Blu-ray release though had a ton of special features. Interestingly though, the size of each movie roughly corresponds to the actual size of the Blu-ray disc for each film. If the special features are not in the K store version, then the size should be listed much smaller than the size of the full disc ISO image I'm looking at.

So, are the special features actually there for the large number of movies I see in the store that do not list any on their information pages?

A lot of the animated DC/Warner movies are also shown with no special features, but with sizes that match the actual Blu-ray ISO image size.

 

[cinelife]

The answer to your question is actually disc specific. K does not control which version of the movie is made available in the store, this is decided by the content owner. Some movies are made available with full supplemental content, some are limited, and some have none. You can get some sense of what's available by selecting the "Special Features" section and opening the drop down menu on the Movie description page. Your comparison on disc size between the Store and the physical disc may also be an indication.




Jim

 

[TrackZ]

Right, but it's the comparison that doesn't add up. Back to the future on the K store is shown as the same size effectively as the BD, but has no special features listed in the store. Can someone confirm for that specific movie, please? Are special features there when you download it?

 

[sbutter]

I believe it is a delay in bookmarking the special features. The movie guide team is very busy with new studios and trying to get as many tiltes added. First step is basic Movis Guide info with Play Movie.

I have noticed that some information will appear at a later date. For example, with Warners Superman Returns originally only had Play Movie, but over time bookmarks were added for Scenes and Special Features.

 

[JohnJ]

Right, but it's the comparison that doesn't add up. Back to the future on the K store is shown as the same size effectively as the BD, but has no special features listed in the store. Can someone confirm for that specific movie, please? Are special features there when you download it?

I just checked all 3 Back To The Future downloads and none have any extras.

John

 

[cinelife]

Sorry, provided a general answer. Hopefully some one that has actually downloaded that specific title can answer the question about supplemental content.

On a side note, do you own a K system? If so, download the movie and if it doesn't have the content you are looking for I'll refund the cost.

SB is also correct, some of the K bookmarking can show up at a later date.



Jim

 

[TrackZ]

Thanks for verifying that, JohnJ. The size comparison doesn't add up then. If it's just a matter of the grunt work required to index the special features that are in fact there in the download, I hope the workers at K are cranking through content at a brisk pace.

In some respects, I'm almost like an option to just download the BD itself intact versus having to rely on the indexing if it is slow to establish content.

cinelife, I do not (yet) own a K system. I've been intrigued for a while, and more so now with the Alto. I plant to hit a local shop this week to demo a unit. I'm very familiar with the whole concept though and media server in general having DIYed my own. K has some really nice features though, so I'm trying to understand some of the finer points of the system. I'll probably be posting some more questions coming up.

I'm really hoping to see more news at CES as well, especially studio support. If K had the library of content that VUDU has with UV and Disney Movies AnyWhere, that would be a big draw. Otherwise, I'd really like to see them add 3D too.

 

[Mr.Poindexter]

It is interesting to see that Netflix is going to take Braveheart and Gladiator out of the streaming library. One of the main reasons I want to own the film instead of rent it is to avoid being denied access to a film at the whim of a studio. Now I guess it isn't just the whim of a studio but also the decision of a streaming service to determine what to put in their portfolio of available titles that I would need to worry about if I had a streaming service.

 

[kedoughty]

I don't think it has anything to do with K getting around to edit and bookmark special features. Maybe there is a delay built in to adding Scenes to a title but the presence of supplemental material seems unrelated.

For example, The Judge is a new release available for download, from WB and has the exact same supplemental content as the BR disc release. However, Fury is another new release from Sony and has no supplemental material, and yet the BR disc has several appealing features. John Wick is a new release from Lionsgate, and again no bonus material (in this case, the BR disc is not particularly loaded with supplements, but they are there).

What's more troubling to me, is that the size of the files would suggest the data is there, but K has just not been granted rights to it, and therefore we don't have access to it.

In the same examples as above:
The Judge, 2hr 21min movie, 4 language audio, commentary audio, and 2 bonus features in 44.6 GB
Fury, 2hr 15min movie, 4 lang audio, no commentary, no bonus features and 48.2 GB
John Wick, 1hr 41min movie, 3 lang audio, 2 additional commentary tracks, no bonus features and 47.4 GB

So the size of the files would suggest more is there data-wise. Obviously this is a small sample size. I understand that for some, lack of bonus material isn't a big deal. But if I'm paying roughly the same amount per title, and seemingly occupying the same amount of space on my server per title, then I should have the bonus material. I'd have no problem paying less for a more stripped down version that isn't going to take as long to download or take up as much server space. But I do take objection to basically advertising a title as equivalent to its Blu Ray release when in fact it isn't.

 

[appliedautomation]

What if you do 'Play Disc'? Can you access the extras then using the Blu-ray Disc menu? even though they are not listed on the KS menus.

 

[cinelife]

There is no "Play Disc" option with downloads.

When "Play Disc" is available, you can access additional content from the discs main menu (that's been my experience).



Jim

 

[TrackZ]

I think your sample size is reflective of the store as a whole. I've looked at so many movies while debating a K purchase, and it's clear that you're downloading a whole disc worth of content but not getting access to it.

 

[cinelife]

That's a generalized statement, certainly not true for all movies available in the Store. But the more important question is "WHY" is the content you refer to not available? I know for certain this is not by K's design, they would prefer to deliver as much content as possible, but licensing controls delivery. We can certainly speculate as to why a content owner might want to limit some content for downloads (perhaps to support the value of the physical disc??), but it doesn't matter, K and other download/streaming services can only deliver what they are licensed to deliver. The Store discloses what is available in the description, if that doesn't work for someone, then buy the physical disc (that's what I do).

I did get the following quote from K regarding content availability:

“We love extra content and are working with our content partners to get supplemental material for movies whenever possible. It varies from studio to studio and title to title what supplemental content we provide. The Movie Guide team regularly reviews titles and versions and will update whenever we can to offer more content to you through the store.

There is not a “Play Disc” option on downloaded titles. All of the playback options you have should be visible through the bookmarks on screen and through the movie details like those noted on The Judge (https://store.kaleidescape.com/movie/details/21850705) and Fury (https://store.kaleidescape.com/movies/details/21879060). You can also see the size of the download, which we list so that customers who are concerned with bandwidth consumption. The file size is as small as we can currently provide and the visible features show all that we currently offer.”



Jim

 

[TrackZ]

My statement was a bit too general, yes. It does seem to me though that far too many movies lack special features access. Take a look at the most recent store postings:

- Fury - No features, 48.2GB
- John Wick - No features, 47.4GB
- Lucy - No features, 35.5GB (a shorter movie and little extras content on the disc)
- The BoxTrolls - No features, 47GB

It's consistently the case. Of the most recent postings, only Throne of Atlantis has features. Warner seems to be pretty good about having them on their movies.

In all of those cases, the download size is way too large to just be the main movie. I've been doing DIY media servers for a while, ripping BDs and so on. The information has to be there at that size. It's just not indexed and presented.

As to why that is, who knows. Could be simple people power from K. They need to hire more workers to get content indexed. Or it could be the studios holding back rights for K to provide access for some unknown reason.

 

[TrackZ]

The other thing I wanted to add is this creates interesting discussion on what exactly K is providing you. I have my theory.

I think K is downloading the exact disc image, essentially the same thing you get if you rip a BD to an ISO with AnyDVD or DVDFab. Their indexing work is simply them determining what piece of content is in what playlist/M2TS file on the disc and mapping it to the file and chapter.

It's the same thing you do if you rip a disc apart with MakeMKV. MakeMKV lists out all the titles on the disc, which corresponds to the main movie and other individual video elements on the disc.

Sometimes that process is easy. Sometimes it's really hard. For example, a movie could have 20 1-3 minutes deleted scenes. The disc could be mastered that each of these are individual titles with only a play all option or they could be individual titles or both.

So regardless, I believe you are downloading the entire Blu-ray ISO image at those disc sizes. If they wanted to, they could just make a "Play Disc" option available for downloads and you'd get exact playback to using a commercial disc. Their value add though is the indexing, but it's weak when the indexing is not done for so much of their content offerings.

 

[JohnJ]

My statement was a bit too general, yes. It does seem to me though that far too many movies lack special features access. Take a look at the most recent store postings:

- Fury - No features, 48.2GB
- John Wick - No features, 47.4GB
- Lucy - No features, 35.5GB (a shorter movie and little extras content on the disc)
- The BoxTrolls - No features, 47GB

It's consistently the case. Of the most recent postings, only Throne of Atlantis has features. Warner seems to be pretty good about having them on their movies.

In all of those cases, the download size is way too large to just be the main movie. I've been doing DIY media servers for a while, ripping BDs and so on. The information has to be there at that size. It's just not indexed and presented.

As to why that is, who knows. Could be simple people power from K. They need to hire more workers to get content indexed. Or it could be the studios holding back rights for K to provide access for some unknown reason.

It is not people power at K. For Warner Bros. movies, 100% of the movies that I checked have checked have extras provided. If it was a people shortage at K there would be some of these that would be missing.

That leaves two reasons:

1) The extras are not provided (I can't comment on your theory that the file sizes mean the extras are there as I can't find a list anywhere of what the file sizes are on the BR discs.)

2) Licenses - As Jim has pointed out, the license controls what K can supply on the store. In that case then some studios should have extras (Warner Bros.) and others should not (Lionsgate, Sony, UniversalNBC) which is in fact what I am seeing. However, in all studio cases, the extra audio tracts are supplied - so I don't know how this fits in. Also, it does not mean K does not have a plan to try to work out something to get the extras included. I just think that is secondary now to getting all the "major studios" added.

All just my opinion.

John

 

[JohnJ]

One other observation, whenever K adds another studio I usually end up with 15 to 20 BR discs that I can go disc-free. I do this, download the store version and delete out the BR version and I end up with extra space on my server (I would guess space for 1-2 extra BR movies depending on which movies according to my server).

So all file sizes must not be exactly the same. But as I said before I don't have a why to check.

John

 

[JohnJ]

That's a generalized statement, certainly not true for all movies available in the Store. But the more important question is "WHY" is the content you refer to not available? I know for certain this is not by K's design, they would prefer to deliver as much content as possible, but licensing controls delivery. We can certainly speculate as to why a content owner might want to limit some content for downloads (perhaps to support the value of the physical disc??), but it doesn't matter, K and other download/streaming services can only deliver what they are licensed to deliver. The Store discloses what is available in the description, if that doesn't work for someone, then buy the physical disc (that's what I do).

I did get the following quote from K regarding content availability:

?We love extra content and are working with our content partners to get supplemental material for movies whenever possible. It varies from studio to studio and title to title what supplemental content we provide. The Movie Guide team regularly reviews titles and versions and will update whenever we can to offer more content to you through the store.

There is not a ?Play Disc? option on downloaded titles. All of the playback options you have should be visible through the bookmarks on screen and through the movie details like those noted on The Judge (https://store.kaleidescape.com/movie/details/21850705) and Fury (https://store.kaleidescape.com/movies/details/21879060). You can also see the size of the download, which we list so that customers who are concerned with bandwidth consumption. The file size is as small as we can currently provide and the visible features show all that we currently offer.?



Jim

Jim, tanks for checking on this and posting the response.

John

 

[cinelife]

............. Or it could be the studios holding back rights for K to provide access for some unknown reason.

Correct. The reason really isn't important, and it's as simple as they (studios) own the content, and they license it's reproduction. I think K's statement clearly indicates their intent. Keep in mind, they're a business, operating legally, they must obtain specific licenses to do what they do. They don't have the luxury of going online, buying a ripping program, and sitting at home ripping rented, or purchased movies, against the stated interests of content owners. They sell access to content, content they didn't create and do not own, content licensed to them with restrictions. If the Studio's eventually allow access to content previously restricted, K works to make it available as soon as possible, but until then, we get what we get.



Jim

 

[Transepoch]

The other strike against the not-bookmarked theory is in the process of vetting discs against their store versions has shown that even titles fully bookmarked, including special features, when retail may still be missing features from the store version. As posted elsewhere, if it's Warner and not disc-menu-dependent then good odds, otherwise chances are really slim (or non-existent if not WB/LG.)