Novice needs general advice. Used KSystem 120

[paulrandom]

Hello Kaleidescape owners!


I don't really know where to begin with this. Please excuse my ignorance in the first part of this post as I quite frankly didn't (and still don't) know about how any of this works. I also apologize if this is the wrong place to post this.

About a year ago I found a "kaleidescape" on a local site similar to craigslist (in the EU). It had one picture and the description mentioned it contained 4x 1TB hard drives. It was quite cheap and lacked any further description. I decided to buy it thinking it was some sort of DVR with a few drives. The plan was to take them out and use them as regular PC sata disks. After reading a bit here about "k disks"" this was probably quite stupid. I know about as much about home cinema/entertainment to have a working plex server and a TV. Nothing more. So, I didn't know about kaleidescape. I got it by mail. The seller said he also had no information about this device and it "lacked a remote". When I got it I didn't even really bother to look it up any further. I saw a YouTube vid about a new kaleidescape system and thought that mine is probably so old it’s useless. (Maybe regrettably) I took out the drives and only left one in its "shell". Formatted 2 of them.

A few days ago, I was cleaning out a storage area and found it again. I made a reddit post about it and a helpful user suggested posting any questions to this forum. That's how I got here.

So: as far as I understand this is a server, right? It rips disks to HDD and stores them. There is a separate "player" component to view them. When I power it on it lights up blue but I don't get any HDMI output. That's as far as I have tested.

Now to my (noob) questions:

1. Is this kind of system still used / useful?
2. How can I go about checking if it works?
3. How stupid was it to format the drives (and lose 2 of them)?
4. (I know I need a paid account to sell, but would anyone be interested in this device?

I am again sorry if this is the wrong place/way to ask these questions. I'm sure anyone else owning kaleidescape equipment know what they are doing

I would be happy to provide further Information and pictures!

Thank you!

 

[Ksalno]

It's an old product. You can read more about it on the Kscape website K120 mini-system

I have no experience with it, but it sounds like it is (or was) a server and player combination. Works with DVD and CD only. It discusses being able to play borrowed or rented material without ripping, so it might still function as a pure CD/DVD player, but I suspect without the OS and app running on those drives you've lost or formatted, it is probably brain-dead at this point.

 

[cinelife]

It sounds like you have a Cinema One. It also sounds like you lost the file system, so assuming the component is still in working condition, you will need a new file system, and probably storage as well. That one drive remaining may allow you to add more drives, but you may also need to start over with a new drive set. The software used to operate these systems, and integrate K drives with the server is proprietary, you cannot replace those drives on your own. This is why there is no HDMI output.

Your questions:
1. Yes, it can still be used, and does have value, assuming a new file system and drives can be procured and the system is in working condition.
2. You really can't until you locate and install drives per #1.
3. Fairly stupid.... (But in fairness you don't know anything about Kaleidescape.)
4. It's true you need to pay a small fee to list it, but you should first try to determine its actual condition. If it can be put back to working condition it has value (but I wouldn't expense more than $1,000 to fix it).

K does not repair components that are out of warranty, so you're basically on your own in getting it operational. You "may" be able to sell it for parts, or to someone willing to take on the challenge of getting it running again.

Jim

 

[paulrandom]

Thank you very much for all the info! Appreciate it!

I've managed to find the 2 drives I still had and somewhat reconstruct them. One has a full shell and one is missing the face plate.
All 3 light up blue and the device itself lights up orange/amber after a while and stays that way.
It got an IP-address via DHCP but I can neither access it via a browser nor via Telnet. Telnet says connection refused. But hey - at least it powers up!

Do you have any advice what I could try next? I'm sorry to bother you as I'm sure you work on more modern (and expensive) equipment as authorized dealer... Should I get a serial cable and go from there? Even If i manage to access it, is there a way to do a "factory reset" regarding passwords for example.

Thanks a ton!

 

[cinelife]

You're not a bother, no need to keep apologizing, this is why the Forum exists.

I think, but am not sure, that your file system is corrupted. It might be because of failed or missing drives (or modified drives), or it might be something in your component. The Amber light indicates a problem.

There is a reset pinhole in between the HDMI and the Analog sections on the rear of the component, you can try that, but it will only reset to DHCP, and reset the audio video setting.

Jim

 

[cinelife]

Given that you are a Kaleidescape owner, you can always reach out to Support by email (support@kaleidescape.com) for their advice, but be advised they are very busy and still temporarily short-handed, so response times are slower than normal. You can connect the component to the internet before reaching out to them, but it still may not "phone home" given the issues you are experiencing. With the serial number of the component Support should be able to tell you what the status was the last time it was connected to Kaleidescape.

Jim

 

[paulrandom]

Ok, thank you!

I looks like there are 2 products (or at least 2 versions) called "Cinema One". The "newer" one has this reset hole (Image) but my "older" one doesn't (image). This one looks like mine (image).

A corrupted file system would make sense, as there are only 3 out of 4 drives present and 1 has been "tampered with" so to speak.

Is there any way to try to manually recover it? Or is there some sort of "BIOS" or "Recovery Menu" that can be accessed?

Thanks

 

[MikeKobb]

Is there any way to try to manually recover it? Or is there some sort of "BIOS" or "Recovery Menu" that can be accessed?

No, there's nothing like a recovery mode. From what you've posted so far, there's no point in trying to go any farther -- the component cannot boot in its current condition.

To shed a little more light, that product had four drives in a RAID configuration. Removing one drive would have left it in a degraded condition in which it would still operate, but would have no redundancy if another drive was removed or failed. If a second drive was corrupted/formatted/etc., then the filesystem is lost and the component cannot boot. You mentioned that you formatted two drives, so the filesystem is definitely lost. The only solution is to replace the filesystem.

Unfortunately, that product has been discontinued for many years, and there are no longer disk cartridges available for it. There is, therefore, no way to replace the filesystem unless you could find a complete disk set (all four drives) from another old KSYSTEM-120 and transplant them, which I think is quite unlikely.

For all practical purposes, at this point that component is finished. However, it does still have value as a trade-in towards a new Kaleidescape system. Don't feel too bad about it, though. That product is quite outdated at this juncture. It only supported DVD and CD and had an SD user interface.

 

[paulrandom]

Thank you very much for the clarification. @MikeKobb

Another thing I noticed is that I never remembered it booting anyway - even with all 4 drives. I found pictures of the old listing that was online and it also had multiple screws missing. So it's safe to assume that there is something wrong with it - I believe.

I will probably not proceed any further with this. I'm also not looking into getting new kaleidescape system anytime soon, but thank you for the information about a potential trade-in value.

@cinelife Would it be a good idea to pay the small fee and list it here as a for-parts unit? Maybe someone somewhere can make some use of it.

 

[cinelife]

I just sent you a PM.

Jim

 

[andy]

From your description and knowing how the RAID works, I agree that there was a catastrophic failure with the file system. Now it is true that you may be able to get the unit working again with a working file system, but I'd make sure and set realistic expectations with anyone you want to sell this to that this is a long shot. Considering the age of the 1st generation Cinema One (that name came to be after the 2nd generation Cinema One launched), it is possible that the early boot failures you encountered before formatting the drives was due to a failed internal component (e.g., mainboard, video chip, etc.).

Andy

 

[MikeKobb]

Andy is 100% spot on, as usual.

 

[paulrandom]

UPDATE:

Thank you to all who provided information on this system.

It's probably a file-system related error. I remember one of the drives I (stupidly) formatted showing up as "bad" on the SMART report. So I assume it failed in some way before that - thus crashing the file system.

Furthermore, I went out and bought a serial cable (Yys, they still sell those) and connected it to a PC to log the boot process. Here is the output:

Spoiler: Boot log

=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~= PuTTY log 2022.08.19 23:34:11 =~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=
 +Kaleidescape Server Boot...

ata_pci_probe: Silicon Image SiI3512 Serial ATA Controller

ata_pci_probe: Intel AHCI-ICH7 controller

ata_pci_probe: Intel non-AHCI-ICH7 SATA controller

AHCI ABAR: 0xeff3fc00, CAP 0xDF22FF03, SSS on

All in one server

Find a hard disk...

ad0: 1000GB <TOSHIBA MK1059GSM> (31H4PM5ST) [1938021/16/63] at ata6-master UDMA100 in slot 1


Add ad0: scp 104D308, sc 104B6D8, drive 6, slot 1, channel   2, pm-scp       0

Drive 6:

    Slot number            1

    Total sectors          1953525168

    Drive description      TOSHIBA MK1059GSM

    Serial number          31H4PM5ST

    Controller             Intel non-AHCI-ICH7 SATA controller

Starter_start_sector 00010110, Starter_byte_length 00316D98

Read in the starter from slot 1, drive 6...

Starting the starter at 00108000

+RealTek 8168B/8111B PCIe Gigabit Ethernet detected

ata_pci_probe: Silicon Image SiI3512 Serial ATA Controller

ata_pci_probe: Intel AHCI-ICH7 controller

ata_pci_probe: Intel non-AHCI-ICH7 SATA controller

AHCI ABAR: 0xeff3fc00, CAP 0x9A021F03, SSS on

All-in-one backplane
Start USB UHCI HC 0, base 0x0000e000, irq 0x2a

Start USB UHCI HC 1, base 0x0000dc00, irq 0x26

Start USB UHCI HC 2, base 0x0000d880, irq 0x25

Start USB UHCI HC 3, base 0x0000d800, irq 0x2a

Start USB EHCI HC 0, base 0xeff3f800, irq 0x2a

EHCI-HC: EHCI version 1.0

EHCI-HC: companion controllers, 2 ports each

USB high speed device detected on port 0, hub USB-Dev-1-root_device

USB hub attached with 8 ports with 8 removable, self powered:  EHCI root hub, class 9/0, rev 2.00/1.00, addr 1

Kaleidescape VS Starter: version 6.2.2-15767 booting ...

Kaleidescape VS Starter: Checking quarantine state ...

Kaleidescape VS Starter: Waiting for boot file system ...

ad0: 1000GB <TOSHIBA MK1059GSM/GL001U> (31H4PM5ST) [1938021/16/63/4096] at ata6-master UDMA100 in slot 1

Add ad0: scp 1E64984, sc 1F0AFC4, drive 6, slot 1, channel   2, pm-scp       0

ad1: 1000GB <TOSHIBA MK1059GSM/GL001U> (21M2FA6VS) [1938021/16/63/4096] at ata5-master UDMA100 in slot 2

Add ad1: scp 1E63A84, sc 1F0DD7C, drive 5, slot 2, channel   1, pm-scp       0

USB full speed device detected on port 0, hub USB-Dev-3-root_device

USB hub attached with 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered:  UHCI root hub, class 9/0, rev 1.00/1.00, addr 1

ad2: 1000GB <TOSHIBA MK1059GSM/GL001U> (21M2FA1MS) [1938021/16/63/4096] at ata7-master UDMA100 in slot 3

Add ad2: scp 1E65884, sc 1F311AC, drive 7, slot 3, channel   3, pm-scp       0

USB full speed device detected on port 0, hub USB-Dev-5-root_device

USB hub attached with 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered:  UHCI root hub, class 9/0, rev 1.00/1.00, addr 1

USB full speed device detected on port 0, hub USB-Dev-7-root_device

USB hub attached with 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered:  UHCI root hub, class 9/0, rev 1.00/1.00, addr 1

USB full speed device detected on port 0, hub USB-Dev-9-root_device

USB hub attached with 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered:  UHCI root hub, class 9/0, rev 1.00/1.00, addr 1

USB high speed device detected on port 2, hub USB-Dev-2-uhub

USB device disappeared on port 2, hub USB-Dev-2-uhub

USB high speed device detected on port 2, hub USB-Dev-2-uhub

Halting because of fatal error code 510007.

Server can be rebooted by power-cycling it or by inserting a disk.
Upload_buffer_to_log_webservice: Await_network_initialization()rtlgig: Link is up 1000 Mbps Full Duplex

Upload_buffer_to_log_webservice: URL::Build_log_upload_service_formatUpload_buffer_to_log_webservice: URL::Put_URL_from_bufferrtlgig: Link is up 1000 Mbps Full Duplex

Upload_buffer COMPLETE - status=0
Socket output: waiting for connection on port 1497

It ends with this "error code 510007". Through reading another post here it seams as if this is disk / file system related.
Also: connecting to this "Port 1497" DOES WORK via Telnet - But I cant really do anything...

So that's the current state of this device

 

[MikeKobb]

510007: FE_STARTER_NO_BOOT_FILE_SYSTEM

As expected, there is no filesystem, so the system is unable to boot.

 

[Substance]

At its max possible storage configuration, 225 DVDs at best is pretty mediocre in 2022. It can store up to 2500 CDs which is still very respectable. Furthermore, it has 2 additional zone outputs for a total of 3 music zones.

I never used my Kaleidescape system as a music server and never really paid attention to the progress (or lack of) in that direction. I remember reading at one point one of the music related tools was discontinued.

Assuming there is still some level of software functionality available in the Kaleidescape software and if you can manage the repair this unit, I think it would make a decent 3 zone music server.


On a second alternative on how to repurpose it in case it can't be repaired, there might be some off the shelf computer parts in it which you could use or sell. I am not very familiar with the 1st gen Cinema One. I have no clue what's in it but just a thought. For example, my Premiere 3U server would definitely make a really nice non-kaleidescape file server if one day its Kaleidescape functionality cease to work and can't be resorted. It has a very nice 3U server chassis with 650W PSU, 14 drive pcie raid controller and bunch of server fans. I know you can't turn a regular HDD into a Kdrive but I don't know if you can format the Kdrive and make it a regular HDD.

 

[Substance]

510007: FE_STARTER_NO_BOOT_FILE_SYSTEM

As expected, there is no filesystem, so the system is unable to boot.

Based on this, it's perhaps best to use it for trade in credit towards a new Kaleidescape system. It is a shame the Cinema One never worked for you. If you could experience it, even for a couple of weeks, you would know how addicting having a Kaleidescape system in your home theater is. Kaleidescape does a great job advertising and explaining their products but its really a different level of experience once you play with it at your home. I was on the fence for many years because, let's be honest, the entry to the eco system is not inexpensive. Having owned my system for 2 years, I can say now I can't do without. You came to the right forum. You will find great help here.

 

[MikeKobb]

Assuming there is still some level of software functionality available in the Kaleidescape software and if you can manage the repair this unit, I think it would make a decent 3 zone music server.

Back in the day, it was indeed quite a cool music server. One zone with onscreen display. Two others you could control either from that display zone, or from the iPad app.

Sadly, the end of music guide updates would make it less desirable now, even if it were still functional. I still have a lot of music on my Premiere system, but I no longer import new purchases to it because they won't be recognized. At some point I suppose I'll do an export to make sure I have it all and then remove the music to make room for a few more movies.

I've pretty much moved to using Roon for music at my house, but that's just one option. One thing I like about it, though, is that it has similar album and artist information to what we offered in the Kaleidescape music functionality. I always enjoy reading about the artists and especially the classical works.

 

[Substance]

Back in the day, it was indeed quite a cool music server. One zone with onscreen display. Two others you could control either from that display zone, or from the iPad app.

Sadly, the end of music guide updates would make it less desirable now, even if it were still functional. I still have a lot of music on my Premiere system, but I no longer import new purchases to it because they won't be recognized. At some point I suppose I'll do an export to make sure I have it all and then remove the music to make room for a few more movies.

I've pretty much moved to using Roon for music at my house, but that's just one option. One thing I like about it, though, is that it has similar album and artist information to what we offered in the Kaleidescape music functionality. I always enjoy reading about the artists and especially the classical works.

Maybe this was discussed previously, forgive me for repeating, any reason why the music functionality was abandoned? There is a great market in audiophile music streamers and having started in 2001, Kaleidescape had a great head start.

 

[MikeKobb]

It was a combination of things, but the biggest one was that people quit buying music on CD. I mean, usage stats right off a cliff. I still vividly remember one of our dealers coming to our booth at CEDIA awhile back and introducing one of his 20-something technicians, just so he could point to the guy and say, "He's never bought a CD in his entire life."

Since our UI was really designed around albums, and people who get music online often pick and choose specific tracks, if we had wanted to pivot to online delivery, we would have had to essentially start over, and we frankly could not devote the resources to a project like that when our main focus is on movies.

So we continued to support our existing functionality for customers who still used it, but then as I recall, the data provider that we use for disc recognition and metadata discontinued the service that our systems relied upon. Again, the investment required to update to a new provider just couldn't be justified based on the number of people still using the music functionality. That's why we brought out the lossless music export tool, so that customers could get all of their music back off of their systems in full quality and move it to whatever music product they choose.

 

[paulrandom]

Thanks for the clarification @MikeKobb

I'll probably soon list it for sale for parts if possible.