Newbie Questions: System Configuration, Storage and Connectivity

[carajo]

Hi Rich,
Congratulations on your new system
For years I used a dedicated AMX control system. The issue was for every little tweak or change you need to spend $$$$ on a programmer. For the last year or so I have been using just dedicated ipads which work great. I also have Roomie which I also like.

 

[rekaufman]

Hi Carajo,

Thanks for the input. Do you have the Kaleidescape app on each Ipad? If so, can each Ipad control each K-scape zone is it a one for one deal (one Ipad per TV)? How would you compare the Ipad to Roomie?

Thanks,

Rich

 

[iansilv]

Roomie is pretty cheap to mess around with- it will control everything that is ip controllable and can do ir control with a small piece of hardware.

 

[carajo]

Hi Rich
Yes I have the Kaleidescape app on every ipad in my home. I keep one ipad in each room and use that ipad to control that TV. I like the interface better on the K- App, its super fast and easy to use. The only thing I dont like is that I cannot control my lighting, or volume from within the app so I have to do the double tap home to open my other apps to do those things. ( I still don't understand why kaleidescape didn't design the app to do simple IP volume control like Roomie and other apps do)

With Roomie, I never have to leave the app and can do my lights, volume control, cameras, switch sources, control directv and kaleidescape. You can still browse titles directly within roomie but the K-app does it much better.

Hi Carajo,

Thanks for the input. Do you have the Kaleidescape app on each Ipad? If so, can each Ipad control each K-scape zone is it a one for one deal (one Ipad per TV)? How would you compare the Ipad to Roomie?

Thanks,

Rich

 

[appliedautomation]

Hi, depending on your control system, Kaleidescape can control your volume from within the KS iPad app.

There are volume buttons within the app, Up, Down and Mute, as well as volume level feedback. These events (button presses) are passed to your control system when you press them, then your control system is programmed to do what it needs to do when it sees these buttons have been pressed.

With Control4 this is something that can be up and working within 5mins.

Thanks

 

[JohnJ]

Hi Carajo,

Thanks for the input. Do you have the Kaleidescape app on each Ipad? If so, can each Ipad control each K-scape zone is it a one for one deal (one Ipad per TV)? How would you compare the Ipad to Roomie?

Thanks,

Rich

One iPad can control all your players/zones if that's how you want to do it. Just pick the player you want to control from the "system" tab.

John

 

[djb_rh]

Let me give you a primer on a couple things.

First, let's think of a control app like iRule or Roomie as the "parent" and the Kapp as the "child." iOS has functionality for a parent app to open a child app *and* tell the child app how to get back to the parent. It's not well advertised and very few apps know how to do it (at last check even Apple's own AppleTV "Remote" app didn't use this), but I know iRule and Kapp support it, and I think Roomie does, too.

So with this functionality, you get the *basic* feature of using the Kapp almost like it was a "page" in your iRule (and maybe Roomie) control app. I have it setup in iRule this way in my system.

Basically, in iRule we created a basic control page for the K system in a room. So I select K as my source and it goes to that page and I can move around the screen, select "covers" and "collections" and such if I want, and play, pause, etc. But if I want to "go advanced", I hit the "App" button and it warps me to the Kapp. Where it gets interesting is the way iRule launches Kapp tells Kapp how to get back to iRule. And if Kapp sees that it's opened that way, it adds a button to the top of the screen with a little "return" arrow as it's icon. Hit that and it gives you a button to "Return to iRule" and back you go.

So that's the quick and easy way to have "both" and have them sort of integrated. But if that's all you do, you can't have any way to control volume while you're in Kapp. You'd have to "Return to iRule" with the button, change volume, and then go back into the Kapp for control if that's what you preferred to use. Which works and isn't horrible, but there is another way...

Kapp does have basic volume functionality built in, but it's VERY basic. So basic, in fact, that there's no way for an iOS app alone to use it. You need a "middle man" server of some kind. Because all you do is enable Kapp to check on whether it's supposed to show volume buttons. And if it is, then all it does is tells the Kserver on the system that a volume event happened in a particular zone. The Kserver then publishes that information in text form on a network port (and, FWIW, the Kserver does this with a LOT more events than just what the Kapp tells it...it sends events for movie start, credits rolling, etc, and you can automate things like lights based on that).

Trick here is that you have to have something that can LISTEN to the Kserver and DO SOMETHING when those events happen. iOS apps *could* do this, but none do because it would be useless during the times when the particular iOS app was in the background (including the time when you're running Kapp, even as a child from the parent, because in iOS only one app at a time can really do much of value). Roomie has what they call "Roomie Agent", a Mac app with some advanced features that I think will ONE DAY handle this problem. You basically leave Agent running on a Mac on your network and it does all sorts of other fancy things, but they haven't gotten to this one yet.

So what will fill that role? Crestron, Control4, Savant, and pretty much all dedicated server based control systems. As for DIY, the only thing I know of for SURE is Indigo on a Mac. That's what I use. It's a $150 home automation suite that I use for this and a couple other things. It's quite well done and works very well, but does require a Mac running on your network all the time, too. But anyway, when you add this you can get volume in Kapp in the proper zone.

So add *that* to something like Roomie or iRule and your Kapp does fairly effectively become a nice "control page" for K.

And IMHO, the Kapp is WAY better than anything you can do with ANY other control system, Crestron or otherwise, because it lets you have your movie selection interface on the touchpad rather than onscreen, and as you will find, using a touchpad for things that require you to look at the screen becomes trying at best.


--Donnie

 

[rekaufman]

Newbie Questions: System Configuration, Storage and Connectivity

Hi Donnie,

Thank you for the detailed primer on the different control options. Summarizing what you said - you think the best approach is to use IRule or Roomie as the parent controller with the Kapp as the child. That way you get the benefits of both systems - the ability to control different functions with the parent app and the great user interface for controlling K-Scape with kapp.

Also, good point about the difficulty needing to use a touchpad to control actions on the tv screen when using Crestron or Control 4. I have not had to do that yet but it does sound like it could be inconvenient.

Can you tell me the reason you prefer IRule over Roomie? Also, do I need to purchase just the IRule or Roomie app. or are there other in-app purchases that I would need to make?

Thanks!

Rich

 

[djb_rh]

Hi Donnie,

Thank you for the detailed primer on the different control options. Summarizing what you said - you think the best approach is to use IRule or Roomie as the parent controller with the Kapp as the child. That way you get the benefits of both systems - the ability to control different functions with the parent app and the great user interface for controlling K-Scape with kapp.

Also, good point about the difficulty needing to use a touchpad to control actions on the tv screen when using Crestron or Control 4. I have not had to do that yet but it does sound like it could be inconvenient.

Can you tell me the reason you prefer IRule over Roomie? Also, do I need to purchase just the IRule or Roomie app. or are there other in-app purchases that I would need to make?

iRule is still a little more "I don't mind using a programming environment on the web and drawing my own graphics and such to get *exactly* what I want" whereas Roomie is "install the app and start building/configuring right in the app and it will replicate itself across devices automatically."

So Roomie is easier, but also less customizable. iRule is much harder to learn, but also MUCH more powerful. To give you an example, back when we did our first iRule setup, there were no nice looking iRule templates for DirecTV. But DTV had just released their own app. It was crap, but it *looked* pretty good. So we did a screen shot of the control page in the app and yanked it into iRule as a custom page. To do that, you just use the image as your "background" and then create "invisible" buttons in the right places over the image and bam, custom screen.

Can't do that in Roomie. You are tied more to their layouts and icons and such, so it may not look and act quite like you'd really want. Sometimes buttons are smaller than you want, etc. And you live with it. But it's pretty easy to setup and get going, too, unlike iRule.

But that said, Roomie has come a long way recently, and I'm not sure I wouldn't actually prefer it now. But I have a Mac on both networks, so running their Agent is easy for me, and it is kind of a requirement, IMHO. I just haven't played with it again. I started with iRule before Roomie was mature enough to be a contender, so I've just stuck with it still. But I may be switching when I can get some more time.


--Donnie

 

[HiFiGuy1]

Rich, regarding drives, you can order from K directly, or thru a dealer. K will sell at full retail whereas dealer pricing may vary.

Yes, more options with a matrix, the 2K/4K is just an indication it handles both, which really improved when Spec 2.0 was released in 2013. Both are fully supported at the specified distances with all 5Play capability. The PAM16 encoding used insures reliable signal without loss of data over those distances and at those resolutions.




Jim

Rich,
To expound a little further on the 4K thing, especially as it relates to HDMI 2.0, etc., please keep in mind that you will also at least want to have HDCP 2.2 to be fully compatible. I am not sure there's an extender out there today that does EVERYTHING needed for full 4K/UHD compatibility, but the beauty of extenders is that you can put in a good set now, and whenever a set comes out with the specs you want/need in the future, just pull the two pieces you have now, replace with the new ones, and you're good to go.

Also, I have had very positive experiences with Ethereal extenders, and use them or Zektor almost exclusively in all my clients' systems because they just work, and I don't have to go back and troubleshoot why something went wrong with the video feed. I have tried others, with mixed results, so I stick with the ones I know to be reliable just to be safe.

BTW, if it isn't apparent, I am a professional AV systems integrator, just for full disclosure. Jim knows that, but for everyone else's benefit, I thought it would be sporting to mention it.

 

[JohnJ]

Can you tell me the reason you prefer IRule over Roomie? Also, do I need to purchase just the IRule or Roomie app. or are there other in-app purchases that I would need to make?

Thanks!

Rich

To do IR or RS232 control with either iRule or Roomie Remote you will need to get network gateways (Global Cache) that are sold through either site (and both software tools use same gateways)

I use iRule just because of the added programming flexibility - I do a lot of custom feedback to my iPad so I can tell what is going on with my system from my iPad display and not use any on-screen displays. For iRule the software costs $49.99 for basic and $99.99 for advanced. As Donnie has said, there is more of an investment in time to learn how to use it.

John

 

[djb_rh]

And yes, Roomie does have some in-app purchases that are pretty much required for a nice system, but none are crazy expensive.

Also note that if you buy Roomie on one iOS device and then do the in-app purchases to "upgrade" it, you get full use of Roomie AND the upgrades across ALL your devices on that same iTunes account without additional charges. You may have to "refresh your purchases" or some such nonsense within the Roomie app on the subsequent devices, but it does work.


--Donnie

 

[rekaufman]

Newbie Questions: System Configuration, Storage and Connectivity

Thanks HiFiGuy1 for the information on extenders. I am going to look to buy either receiver/transmitter set or a matrix set this weekend. I will start with the brands that you recommend.

Question: Do you need to use an extender to amplify a signal anytime you are making a long run of Ethernet cable - say cat. 6 cable longer than 100 ft? Or only when you are converting the signal from/to HDMI?

Rich

 

[rekaufman]

Newbie Questions: System Configuration, Storage and Connectivity

Thanks everyone. Based on the descriptions I think Roomie may be a better fit for me. Although customization options are nice, I'm not sure I have the time to spend personalizing my interface system. I think I will give Roomie a try.

Rich

 

[HiFiGuy1]

Rich,
Anytime. Happy to help. You do not typically need any kind of amplification other than what comes built into the extenders. The ones I frequently use are up to 70m (sometimes called HDBaseT Lite) or 100m, so 100 ft is no problem.

Here's a good example of a very high-performance set. Ethereal HDM-CAT6SC
It claims 4K x 2K and Deep Color support, as well as 3D, but doesn't do Ethernet over HDMI, which I frankly try to avoid anyway. Who wants 10/100, when an extra wire will get you Gigabit?

If you need more advanced capability, and maybe only have a single Category cable and can't run more, but still need bi-directional control and Ethernet networking, check out this Zektor SoloCAT HDE extender system. It also offers PoE, so you only have to power the system from one end. I normally get these when I need to install a matrix switching system like the Zektor Palladia III 6x4x8 chassis. This chassis, and it's big brothers the 8x8 and 16x16, provide built-in HDBaseT outputs which include PoE, so they provide signal and power to the end points, or receivers, located at each display.

As far as the Roomie thing is concerned, please don't discount a professionally installed system. Like Jim, I am a supporter and user of RTI products. My clients love them, as I am sure Jim's do, and the reason is because the success or failure of these systems, DIY or professionally installed, is almost solely down to the skill of the programmer in integrating the various subsystems together cleanly. Many disparate brands of control system hardware can be made to work very well with the proper programming. I can't tell you how many 6-figure Crestron systems I've run across with a HORRIBLE interface and underlying logic, so spending more money isn't necessarily the key. If you do go with a pro, ask to see a live system or two, and ask to use it without prompting. If you can't, maybe you haven't found the right programmer. I see you are in the SF Bay area. If you'd like to find a reputable person there who could help you, I would be happy to assist in any way I can. I am a LONG way from there, but I know guys all across the country who are very skilled at what they do.

Finally, whichever way you decide to go, good luck with it!

 

[rekaufman]

Newbie Questions: System Configuration, Storage and Connectivity

HiFiGuy1,

Thanks for the detailed answer!

I'm still trying to decide on the best approach to get my system setup. Please give me your opinion.

My modem and router are together in a common area by the kitchen. My main TV, network switch and K-scape system are in a different room of the house. I have the router connected to the network switch via a 75-100 foot run of cat. 6 cable (under the house). My 3U Server, M500 Player and M700 Disc Vault are all individually connected to the network switch.

In your opinion, do I need to use an extender to power the cat. 6 cable run between the router and the network switch?

Also, I plan on adding a 2nd and 3rd K-scape zone in other locations of the house. What is the best way to add these locations? My initial thoughts were to use cat 6. cable from the network switch to an M300 or M500 K-Scape player which is linked to a TV. Will this work or do I have to use an HDBaseT transmitter/extender/matrix somewhere in the cable run between the main network switch and the 2nd and/or 3rd TV's/K-Scape systems?

Thanks again for the help!

Rich

 

[HiFiGuy1]

The Ethernet standard says that a "hop" can be up to 328'/100m. As long as you don't exceed that for any individual run of wire for your network, you should have no problems. Cat. 6 is good wire. Properly terminated, it should handle a Gigabit path with no problem. If you ever need a run longer than 100 meters, you can install a small powered switch in the middle somewhere. A good choice for that would be a Netgear GS108 (8 port) or GS105, either of which are Gigabit switches with metal cases and lifetime warranties.

One of the many great things about K is that system architecture is flexible. If you are going to dedicate a player to a specific room, I would personally suggest using the Cat. 6 for an Ethernet run, and locating the player in the room in which you'll be using it. This would allow short HDMI runs from player-to-receiver and receiver-to-TV.

It is also valid to use the matrix switcher I mentioned before, and send other things along with the K down the same extender network. This would allow for sharing of things like Roku, Apple TV, satellite/cable boxes, etc. This would also allow sharing a single K player in multiple rooms, which may be a good solution if there aren't multiple simultaneous users of the K player(s), since the cost of an M500 would basically buy you that Zektor 6x4x8 switch I mentioned. That is how I currently do it in my house, in part because I have a K Music Player, and I can distribute four streams of audio that way.

 

[kipione]

I have two questions which is directed to the dealers since I would assume are in the know.
First I have an existing system which I interested in adding a disc vault. My question is with DVD import restrictions that have been placed as of November, if a purchase a new unit, will I be able to import from that unit given my server is grandfathered in or do I need to find a used older unit prior to that time.
Second I did recently purchase a bulk loader on E-bay which is always a crap shoot I understand but I have not been able to get it to function properly. One when a disc is loaded into either of the readers it is not being read. When I check online is shows the loader is there and responds to commands but shows an error message indicating a problem with reading. Two there appears to be a mechanical issue with the loader itself where its not feeding right. Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Kipione

 

[cinelife]

If your Server is grandfathered (bought before Nov. 30th 2014), then any new Server you upgrade to will be grandfathered as well. You must return the original Server to K to obtain this grandfathered status. Other components are not affected by the DVD restrictions, it is the Server that controls, so adding a Vault would only be needed if you plan to import and store Blu-ray discs.

Sorry, it's been awhile since I played with the speed loaders (there were two versions), it may be that the optical drives are bad, not sure, contact K support for advice. (support@kaleidescape.com) (650-625-6160).



Jim