Newbie Questions: System Configuration, Storage and Connectivity

[rekaufman]

Hi

I'm new to Kaleidescape and I just started working on putting together a great system for my house. I just joined the forum mid February 2015 and thanks to the help of everyone on the Kaleidescape Owners' Forum, I have purchased a 3U Server and an M700 Disc Vault for my system from other forum members. Thank you everyone for your advice and help to date!

Being new, I still have a lot of questions on many different aspects of owning K-Scape and I was hoping you could help. Here is some basic information on my system and a list of some of my questions:

Disc Storage Capacity: My current 3U system has 3 2TB discs for a total of 6 TB. I am looking to quickly increase the storage capacity of the system. Is there an explanation on the forum describing how I can combine different disc sizes (some 2 TB's and some 4 TB's) and how this impacts actual storage space on the system? Also, is it possible to just purchase all new discs (4 TB's) and replace the older 2 TB's while keeping the same system (and legacy rights)? I ask these questions because I know that the servers use one drive for Raid and one drive as a hot swap drive.

System Storage and connectivity: I see all of the K-Scape equipment is designed to be housed in server racks. Can the equipment be used w/o a server rack? That is, just placed on a tv stand or in a home theater style cabinet? If not, has the community settled on any particular server racks/styles? I know most server racks are not attractive and I don't want it sitting out in the room by the tv. Are there any server racks/cabinets that are designed as furniture? Also, I imagine I would need a server rack with cooling and perhaps sound insulation. Is this the case?

Finally, if I move the equipment into a different room to hide it from view, do you know at what distance the remote will work and how long of a data cable run I could make without losing signal clarity?

Thanks for the help!

Rich

 

[Transepoch]

For storage capacity, the two largest sized drives in a 3U are always RAID & SPARE, so 3x2T should only give you 2T of space. If you mix 2s & 4s, the first pair of 4s will go to spare and then redundancy, so you will only get 2T of space each, as your existing drives slide into storage roles. I see Jim about, so hopefully he can confirm that the chassis and not the drives determine your legacy status, so now might be a good time to jump up to a larger-sized array (if you think that extra 6T will come in handy later.) Technically you can pull & force-fail drives to increase size, once all slots are full, but in the same way you can give your Civic the cargo space of an SUV by ripping the roof off (it works, but you really shouldn't want to try it.)

There are feet if you choose not to rack-mount, though arguably they are still optional in that situation too (just don't move them around much to avoid scratches,) unless you have geological concerns. Some of my stuff is actually stacked on an end-table in another room, because the rack was full. It works, but I would just as soon get a second rack eventually (half-racks cost as much or more than full-sized last I checked.) For the record, I find my rack very pretty, but going for one with doors & panels may have helped in that regard. I've seen furniture with integrated racks, and arguably you could turn anything with a sufficiently large internal cabinet space into a rack with a pair of rack posts, but couldn't advise on one being better than the other (and more of an aesthetic choice anyway.) You will want sound protection, as those fans can get up there in decibels, and the vault operations are quite noticeable too. Cooling is probably less of an issue than just basic airflow, but depends as much on what all is going in there.

The IR remote is probably a basic 30-footer, which I find usually means 15-20, which means you will want a repeater, app, or control system instead. Data is going over Ethernet, so general networking run rules apply (shorter>longer, active>passive connectors, minimize connections, don't run with high-voltage, quality>not in parts & cables, etc.)

 

[cinelife]

Hi Rich, first, welcome to the K family, and in particular our Owner's Forum!

Disk Storage Capacity: You are correct, the first two drives in a 3U are reserved for KRAID and Hot Spare, it is not until you install a third drive that you acquire actual storage ability (that's the general answer). Raid allocation must always match the largest drive in the Server (i.e. if you have a single 4TB amongst smaller drives, the RAID allocation will be 4TB). The Hot Spare is normally, by necessity, as large as the largest drive in the Server (if it wasn't, it might not be able to accept the content rebuild in the event of a drive failure).

You currently have 2TB of actual storage (based on your description). You may add any drive size designed to work in a 3U (750GB, 1TB, 2TB, 3TB, or 4TB). Mixing drive sizes is not a problem, but you should consider the impact of using certain sizes (as you are doing). Most considerations focus on number of available spaces in a Server to add drives in the future (you are in good shape there with 11 spaces), the type (BR, DVD) and size (how many discs) of your collection or anticipated collection, how quickly do you acquire new discs.

Given that you currently have all 2TB disks, I'd stick with that size or larger, and preferably the largest available (currently 4TB's). If you know you will primarily be storing Blu-ray content, I'd definitely consider only 4TB's, but again, that decision might also depend on how quickly you plan to build your collection. As you add new drives, if they are smaller than 2TB, then nothing changes in your RAID and Hot Spare. If you add larger than 2TB, then the first two you add only result in "freeing up" the 2TB drives currently in your system (i.e. if you add one 4TB, you only gain 2TB of actual storage, the same with the second 4TB you add. It is not until the third 4TB that you gain 4TB of storage.

Yes, you can buy Three new 4TB's and replace the Three 2TB's you currently have, BUT, you must insure that you order a "File System" with the 4TB's (this is necessary to allow the 4TB's to work with your Server). K does not charge for the file system, but it must be ordered at the same time as the 4TB's are ordered. Keep in mind, this new file system must only be ordered for the 4TB's provided these 4TB's WILL BE THE ONLY DRIVES IN THE SERVER (you are removing ALL existing drives). You CANNOT mix drives from different Servers.

You do not affect legacy status by changing drives.

Yes, although many (most??) owner's have their components in equipment racks, this is not a requirement, and the "rack ears" that come attached to most components can easily be removed. Most keep their 3U in a separate room because of noise issues (the 3U fans are noticeable). As far as cable lengths go, my experiences indicate that provided you are using good quality HDMI cables, 30' - 40' will work, and perhaps longer. Keep in mind however that as we move into 4K in the near future, long runs that work now may present problems. I think most of us have moved to cable runs that include some sort of extender or HDBaseT networking to extend HDMI lengths. These days, longer runs are less of an issue than in years past. Racks are a personal choice, and there are many choices these days. I use, almost exclusively, Middle Atlantic products for my systems, and installs. They do have some racks with designer characteristics (side panels/glass doors), but most are very "utility" driven.

The remote controls that come with some K components really need to be in the same room as the components, but most of us have separate wifi based control systems (but there are certainly many options in IR extenders, RF based, Zigbee, etc, etc,).

Hope that's a start, feel free to reach out anytime with additional questions.

Again, Welcome!! (Call me if you think talking would be helpful: 808-721-7839, I'm in FL, take calls at all hours, if available, I'll pick up, or call I'll return the call asap.)

Jim

 

[cinelife]

Sorry, Trans and I were tying at the same time.....he's faster.



Jim

 

[JohnJ]

Also, the remote only controls the player (M700 in your case). The player then communicates with the server via the network connection. Hence, the 3U can be in a totally different area from the player as long as they are on the same network and have a good high speed netwrk connection.

The M700 can also be controlled via network codes if you have a control system that has this capability.

John

 

[rekaufman]

Newbie Questions: System Configuration, Storage and Connectivity

Wow! Thank you Transepoch, Cinelife and John J! I appreciated the fast response to my inquiries. And thank you for such detailed and informative responses. I really appreciate all of the help!

So if I'm understanding the answer correctly, it sounds like I can mix and match drives on my server at will. However, the 2 largest drives will always be used for RAID and the hot spare so I will potentially "lose" usable space on the drives unless all drives are the same size.

If this is the case, I have some used non-working 2 TB drives that came with the system that I could get refurbished or upgrade to add some initial extra capacity and then go to all new 4 TB drives (I have ~ 1000 movies altogether that I want to add to the system [~700 blu-rays and ~300 DVD's]) so I want to upgrade and fully house my entire collection. I would then like to "convert" as many of my blu-ray movies to K-Scape BR downloads onto my server as possible (I guess it depends on what they have in the store).

It sounds like I may have quite a bit of work ahead of me to get my system up and running. The servers seem like they may be too loud to keep in the same room and unfortunately, I don't have an easily accessible room that is close to the TV room in which I can put my 3U Server. At least is sounds possible to temporarily keep the equipment in my entertainment center while I find a good server. I think it will take some thinking on my part to determine the best location/solution.

Good feedback about the cable runs and potential implications of 4k. I hope K-Scape plans on developing a solution for 4k (playing, storage and downloading). Also hope our current equipment will work with 4k.

Cinelife (Jim) - thanks for the offer to discuss some of this over the phone. If you don't mind, I think I will call sometime over the next few days as I would like to discuss the best way to "grow" my system as well as setup, system control and HDMI extenders, etc.

Again - thanks to everyone for all of the advise and help. Hopefully, I will be able to "pay it forward" someday.

Best Regards,

Rich

 

[djb_rh]

The only thing I'd add is that while I'm guessing you need some amount of extra space, you might do some math and see exactly how much you REALLY need. Buying 14x4TB drives may not make the most economic sense if you really only need 8, for example. Reason is the drive prices are bound to come down as larger ones come out, and if it's a year before you need more than that, well, you may save some dough by waiting. I know of no reason to think those prices might go *up*, anyway.

There are some folks here who have maxed out 14x4TB server(s), but that's not the norm, so I thought it worth mentioning. There's little reason to *replace* your 2TB drives unless you really do need to go all the way to 14x4. Sure, it's painfully annoying that the first couple 4TBs don't increase your space as much as you'd *think*, after that it's no big deal. And ultimately you can replace those 2TB drives one by one with 4TB drives as they fail (assuming you don't really need 14x4TB immediately).

Just a thought.


--Donnie

 

[rekaufman]

Newbie Questions: System Configuration, Storage and Connectivity

Thanks Donnie!

I did not realize that K-Scape came out with larger drive sizes on a regular basis. Do you think they will soon be coming out with a 6TB or 8 TB drive.

Rich

 

[JohnJ]

Here is the history of when previous hard drives were released by K:

4TB ? 30 Jan 2013
3TB ? 3 Jan 2012
2TB ? 3 Nov 2009

No telling what it will be going forward....

John

 

[rekaufman]

Newbie Questions: System Configuration, Storage and Connectivity

I purchased a rack for my equipment today. I got the Noren Acoustilock 16TD unit. It looks very heavy duty and sounds like it will be excellent at keeping the equipment cool and isolating sound from the servers so I can keep the equipment in the same room as my main theater/TV (my setup makes it difficult to place the rack/equipment in a separate room so I thought this would resolve the noise issue).

I still need to hook up my second zone/tv which will require an extensive cable run (probably 100 feet +- 10 feet).

I checked out the HDBaseT equipment mentioned in one of the previous posts and I am thinking I will need this type of unit to successfully connect my second zone. If I'm understanding this correctly, I just need to hook up my primary K-Scape Server/Vault to my second zone via Cat. 6 cabling and then have an HDMI Matrix, IR Receiver or Extender on the other end to convert the signal back to HDMI without loss of signal quality (minimal loss of quality). Is this correct?

Also, what do you find to be the preferred control scheme/instruments for K-Scape? Is this the IPAD, Crestron, etc.

Thanks again and I will keep you informed of what else I add and how things are going.

Rich

 

[Transepoch]

(I have ~ 1000 movies altogether that I want to add to the system [~700 blu-rays and ~300 DVD's]) so I want to upgrade and fully house my entire collection. I would then like to "convert" as many of my blu-ray movies to K-Scape BR downloads onto my server as possible (I guess it depends on what they have in the store).

Okay, some hardish numbers to work with. If I remember correctly, a new 4T drive is expected to hold ~110 BDs or ~600 DVDs. Based on your current collection, you are looking at needing about 8x4T, or 32T to add it up however you will. Just remember, those are storage numbers, so add the spare & redundancy drives... and at a max of 12-storage-drive-slots in a 3U, those 2Ts can stick around while you start, but will not leave a ton of expansion space (3x2T + 2x4T overhead = 26T needed / 4T/drive = 7 drives... 3+2+7=12 of 14 slots taken with not a lot of margin left in the original import.)

Remotes: I was really expecting to want use tablet more, but between no K-app for Android, the web interface only working with Oracle Java, and just overall finding a preference for the no-look functionality of tactile feedback, I keep to using the stick-remote for my Control4.

 

[cinelife]

One clarification, just fyi, although we describe the RAID as being a single drive, RAID is actually distributed amongst all drives, it does not reside within a single drive for obvious reasons. That said, the RAID "allocation" will always be as large as the largest drive in the system, again for obvious reasons.

HDBaseT setups come in a few options, but the simple way to think about it is you start with the HDMI signal from from the Player (or Vault Player) into the HDBaseT Transmitter which uses a Cat5e or preferably Cat6 cable to distribute the signal up to 100m (farther if daisy-chained) and into an HDBaseT Receiver that converts back to HDMI output to your display. You can of course send other signals as well, including bi-directional IR for control of equipment if you choose to control by IR. There are several components to HDBaseT, and a lot of options, including the Matrix Switches and Receiver kits, etc. Some inexpensive "kits" can be found at Monoprice.com, if interested, but there are many others as well.

Regarding control, you will find a variety of systems being used by forum members, including Crestron, AMX, Savant, Control4, RTI (my choice), Universal, and a bunch of others. Choice is personal, and usually budget driven. Most of these manufacturer's have apps that allow for control using iPads, iPhones, Android devices, etc., and K has created control modules for many of these manufacturers. Over the years what I've personally found is the more simple the setup, the more reliable it is and the easier it is to update as components change. Just one opinion.


Jim

 

[cinelife]

Okay, Trans did it to me again! (Typing same time.) That "clarification" was not clarifying anything Trans..typed, it was just to clarify RAID in general.





Jim

 

[djb_rh]

On control, if you want to spend big dollars with a dealer (to start with, and in maintenance) and have a really good control system that "just works" 100% of the time, then go with Crestron.

If you want to spend a lot less dollars on a really good system but have someone else do it for you, go RTI.

If you want to try some DIY stuff first, consider Roomie Remote and/or iRule. iRule is DIY but you're going to need to be a little bit of a "computer guy". But it's very powerful and very good if you can wrap your mind around the programming side of it.

If you want to "program" less, but still want to try something fully customizable, I actually like Roomie Remote a lot. It's got a terrible name, but it's quite powerful.


--Donnie

 

[iansilv]

Hey Rich! I use roomie on my iPhone for now, plan on jumping up to a crestron when I have the need.

 

[rekaufman]

Newbie Questions: System Configuration, Storage and Connectivity

Thanks again to everyone for the advice. It looks like I need to do a bit more research before deciding on my control system and HDbaset options. I have heard of Crestron before for both home and business use. We are building a Training Room at work and I have been working with outside AV contractors on the quote. Crestron is usually on the high end for cost/control but most of the installers seem to like it a lot. I will check into the other options including RTI and "Roomie Remote" (awful name!).

For HDbaset it sounds like I could go multiple ways the easiest being going with a simple HDbaset transmitter linked to an HDbaset receiver using cat. 6 cable. Not sure why I would need the matrix switch, is this so I could keep all equipment remotely (AVR, Playstation, etc.) and still be able to select the appropriate input from a distance (like using my AVR for switching inputs but enabling this to be done at a distance?)? Also, I noticed a LOT of different option for the HDbaset 2k/4k and the reverse 4k/2k among others. What is the difference in speed or resolultion between the two listed above?

Finally on storage space; sounds like I will need to add quite a bit more storage to house my collection. Can drives be ordered directly from K-Scape or do all items need to be purchased through a dealer? Also, I do have an M700 with could hold ~ 320 of my blu-ray discs so I guess I could save a little on storage up front and add more as I convert the discs to digital.

Thanks again for all of the support!

Rich

 

[cinelife]

Rich, regarding drives, you can order from K directly, or thru a dealer. K will sell at full retail whereas dealer pricing may vary.

Yes, more options with a matrix, the 2K/4K is just an indication it handles both, which really improved when Spec 2.0 was released in 2013. Both are fully supported at the specified distances with all 5Play capability. The PAM16 encoding used insures reliable signal without loss of data over those distances and at those resolutions.




Jim

 

[djb_rh]

Here is the history of when previous hard drives were released by K:

4TB ? 30 Jan 2013
3TB ? 3 Jan 2012
2TB ? 3 Nov 2009

No telling what it will be going forward...

One thing that occurred to me that's useful in addition to the above. Didn't drive prices on those drives listed above go down a time or two in between new releases (and when the new bigger ones came out)?

It's worth noting that drives are WAY more expensive from K than going rate for similar drives for computers (if you haven't figured that out already). That's why I'm so sensitive to the "no reason to fill your server with the biggest drives there are until you actually NEED them."


--Donnie

 

[Croptop]

Also, I do have an M700 with could hold ~ 320 of my blu-ray discs so I guess I could save a little on storage up front and add more as I convert the discs to digital.

Just a heads up: Blu-ray discs in the vault are still imported to the server's filesystem and will take up storage space. The vault houses the discs in order to satisfy disc presence requirements but playback of the content is still done from the server's hard drives. So if you put 320 Blu-ray Discs in your vault, you will need to have a large enough filesystem to import all of those discs in order to be able to watch them.

 

[rekaufman]

Newbie Questions: System Configuration, Storage and Connectivity

Thanks Croptop, I clearly was unaware that was the case. It looks like I will need a significant amount of storage right from the start to house my collection.

Rich