Network Segregation?

[josh]

Hi All,

Hoping we have some very advanced networking people hanging out here. My questions are around whether it's worth segmenting off the Kaleidescape devices on their own VLAN, or to get more drastic putting them on their own switch. Theoretically, by segregating the K devices in one of those ways, higher performance should be achieved regardless of what else is happening on the network.

I've noticed, for instance, that my upstairs 1080p Miniplayer can't play the Hi-Def Kalahari videos without a few hiccups, the first I've ever seen of this on Kaleidescape.

That bedroom has a single run of Ethernet cable coming to it, so I had to put a small gigabit ethernet switch in there to allow the Tivo and KPlayer to share net access. I'm wondering if that switch is adding enough of a delay to cause these problems.

I'd hate to run another ethernet cable upstairs... so my other choice would be to use that ethernet ONLY for the Kplayer and switch my Tivo to wifi. Might help.

So, roundabout question, but in general, should the K traffic have its OWN switch or VLAN so its traffic performs optimally and not get affected by file transfers between PCs or slower wifi traffic, etc.?

--josh

 

[DigitalStudioWerks]

Before putting Kscape on it's own network I would have a Network Engineer analyze your network. We are Cisco Certified and have not had to put Kscape on a separate network on any install so far. First off make sure of the following.
1) Use higher end switches. HP Procurve Gigabit 1800 Series Switches are the "entry" level switches we start with for residential and we go up from there. We use Cisco for commercial installations. We stay a way from Netgear, Linksys (even though they are owned by Cisco), DLink, etc.

2) Make sure your switches have a low latency and high throughput.

3) Make sure you are getting a solid connect. Check all ethernet cables.

4) If you have a managed switch take a look at the logs and see if you are having dropped packets on the ports the KScape server and Movie Players are plugged into.

On our single network we have our phones (Polycom IP Phones) Crestron control system, Computers (10) and servers (3), Kscape (server and 4 movie players), Internet connection. Everything runs with out any hiccups, no dropped packets, no latency, etc.

We are using the HP Procurve 1800 24-G (3) and 1800 8G (3).

What is the brand and model number of the switches you are using?

 

[JerryL]

I like James ideas a lot. I don't have this issue but I have thought about this Josh and actually have set it up that should I want to I could move to this kind of setup. I forget the switches Im using but I think they are fairly high end gigabit 24 port deals.

 

[josh]

Thanks James... Great tips.

In my main network room, I'm using a Cisco SRW2008 Managed Gigabit Ethernet Switch, something I had thought of as reasonably high-end commercial-grade switch, but maybe this isn't the case? The server is plugged in directly there, along with the lines from the Home Theater and the Master Bedroom. The runs are all good Cat-6E cabling.

However, in each of those other rooms, since I've needed more ports for other devices, I've added more consumer grade 5-port gigabit switches. I believe the Home Theater has a decent Cisco-branded one, but the bedroom is probably a netgear one. Maybe that is my weak link, so to speak.

I will try to check the logs on the Cisco switch and see if I see problems there.

By the way, I had NEVER seen interruptions in movie playback...ever. But for kicks, I just tried out the Kalahari videos on my new 1080p Miniplayer in the bedroom and that's what does show an occasional stutter. That's obviously much higher bandwidth than any DVD content... have you tried that particular file for your own stress-testing? I don't care much about hiccups on that movie, but it tells me my current setup may not be able to handle Blu-Ray, if and when Kscape does release that capability.

One other thing I've been considering James is this: Since my SRW2008 also has some other things on it (home security control system, and a wifi A.P.), maybe I should enable a VLAN within that switch to segment the K traffic?

Thanks for any more insight you could offer!
--josh

 

[josh]

I like James ideas a lot. I don't have this issue but I have thought about this Josh and actually have set it up that should I want to I could move to this kind of setup. I forget the switches Im using but I think they are fairly high end gigabit 24 port deals.

Try the Kalahari videos. Much higher bandwidth than any DVD movie... see if you get any stutters. Check FF and REW performance on that video. Might see a problem, as I did.

 

[DigitalStudioWerks]

Thanks James... Great tips.

In my main network room, I'm using a Cisco SRW2008 Managed Gigabit Ethernet Switch, something I had thought of as reasonably high-end commercial-grade switch, but maybe this isn't the case? The server is plugged in directly there, along with the lines from the Home Theater and the Master Bedroom. The runs are all good Cat-6E cabling.

However, in each of those other rooms, since I've needed more ports for other devices, I've added more consumer grade 5-port gigabit switches. I believe the Home Theater has a decent Cisco-branded one, but the bedroom is probably a netgear one. Maybe that is my weak link, so to speak.

I will try to check the logs on the Cisco switch and see if I see problems there.

By the way, I had NEVER seen interruptions in movie playback...ever. But for kicks, I just tried out the Kalahari videos on my new 1080p Miniplayer in the bedroom and that's what does show an occasional stutter. That's obviously much higher bandwidth than any DVD content... have you tried that particular file for your own stress-testing? I don't care much about hiccups on that movie, but it tells me my current setup may not be able to handle Blu-Ray, if and when Kscape does release that capability.

One other thing I've been considering James is this: Since my SRW2008 also has some other things on it (home security control system, and a wifi A.P.), maybe I should enable a VLAN within that switch to segment the K traffic?

Thanks for any more insight you could offer!
--josh

Hi Josh,
What you describe above seems to be fine and you should not be experiencing any issues.

We have NOT seen any issues on the 1080p player playing Kalahari or any of the other HD movies.

1) Did this just start when you introduced the 1080p player

2) Have you had a chance to view the switch's logs

3) I looked up the Cisco model you gave below. It does have QOS support. I would look and see if you can create some kind of QOS for the Kscape server and player's.

4) How is your system setup? Is the server and players plugged into the same switch or separate switches? If separate switches how are they connected?

As far as a VLAN, we are not running one here and everything is running fine. In fact, at this moment I have Kalahari (The Flooded Desert) running on 2 displays, my business partner is on a conference call (for the past 30 min), plus all our computer systems, Crestron, etc. No issues at all.

Let me know about 1-4 above.

 

[josh]

Thanks again James... hope you're not starting to feel like a doctor at a cocktail party, asked to give a free consult to an annoying guest.

As to your followup questions:

1) Did this just start when you introduced the 1080p player?

I hadn't noticed this problem before putting in the 1080p player, but that doesn't mean it wasn't there. I don't think I've watched the Kalahari videos for a LONG time... and it's only that video that can (occasionally) trigger the hiccups. I'm guessing it was always there.

2) Have you had a chance to view the switch's logs

Unfortunately, I don't have a true SNMP setup, nor a server log for the switch to write to... so it only has in-memory logs, and therefore only last 2 weeks, since the last time i power-cycled it. The logs show only a few innocuous errors, nothing severe, not tons of collisions or problems. Only a couple of admin connections, and a single IGMP Packet with unknown source IP.

3) I looked up the Cisco model you gave below. It does have QOS support. I would look and see if you can create some kind of QOS for the Kscape server and player's.

This is a great tip - I had forgotten this switch could do QoS prioritization by port. That seems much more straightforward than VLANs which can be rough, at least for an amateur net-ops guy like me. I'll play with setting the Kaleidescape ports to a higher priority and see if that fixes it.

4) How is your system setup? Is the server and players plugged into the same switch or separate switches? If separate switches how are they connected?

OK - setup is like this:

CABLE MODEM
 --to NETGEAR ROUTER (WNR3500)

Netgear RangeMax Wireless-N Gigabit Router (WNR3500)
  |1|-- to Main Home Office PC
  |2|-- to Printer
  |3|-- to Kitchen PC
  |4|-- to CISCO MANAGED GIGABIT SWITCH (SRW2008)
             |1|--TO LIVING ROOM (unused now)
             |2|--KSCAPE SERVER
             |3|--TO HOME THEATER RACK (Linksys unmanaged gigabit 8-port switch)
             | |         |1|-- KPlayer-6000 (1080p Player)
             | |         |2|-- KReader 2000e
             | |         |3|-- Playstation 3
             | |         |4|-- Roku Photobridge HD (usually off)
             | |         |5|-- TivoHD
             |4|--TO MASTER BEDROOM (Cheap Netgear gigabit 5-port switch)
             | |         |1|-- KPlayer-300 (1080p Miniplayer) 
             | |         |2|-- TivoHD

The problem is that final Master bedroom Kplayer300. I think if QoS prioritization doesn't help, then I should probably remove that cheap Netgear gigabit switch upstairs and either get a better switch there for the bedroom or just put that bedroom TivoHD on wifi. That way the upstairs KPlayer can connect directly to the high-performance SRW2008 switch, same switch the KServer is on.

Make sense?

 

[DigitalStudioWerks]

Hi Josh,
I would definitely take out the Netgear in the MB out of the loop and directly plug the Kscape Player into port 4 on the Cisco Switch.

Also, do you have a cable tester? I would test the cable going from port 4 on the Cisco to the MB. Is that cable in wall?

A few more things.
1) I do not know if I asked this or if you mentioned it but, is this issue only happening on the MB player?

2) How long is the cable run from the Cisco to the MB?

3) Play the Kalahari video and watch the logs on the switch. When the video starts dropping see what the logs say.

By the way . . .I don't mind helping at all. I do not "feel like a doctor at a cocktail party, asked to give a free consult to an annoying guest."

Just glad I can give a little assistance.

 

[josh]

Thanks... i don't have a cable tester. Cable run isn't very long, maybe 40-50 feet.

I do only see the problem in the MBrm, despite the home theater player being the same number of "hops" away from the Kserver. So you're probably right it's either the cabling or the low-quality bedroom switch.

Thanks, will keep investigating and let you know what i find! I really appreciate the help and advice!
--josh

 

[mrmckay]

1) Use higher end switches. HP Procurve Gigabit 1800 Series Switches are the "entry" level switches we start with for residential and we go up from there. We use Cisco for commercial installations. We stay a way from Netgear, Linksys (even though they are owned by Cisco), DLink, etc.

We are using the HP Procurve 1800 24-G (3) and 1800 8G (3).

What is the brand and model number of the switches you are using?

James,
The HP Procurve doesn't appear to support STP correctly even though a recent firmware upgrade indicates that it does. ( I need STP to work correctly with SONOS. ) What are other higher end switches that you would recommend?

Regards,
Chris

 

[DigitalStudioWerks]

James,
The HP Procurve doesn't appear to support STP correctly even though a recent firmware upgrade indicates that it does. ( I need STP to work correctly with SONOS. ) What are other higher end switches that you would recommend?

Regards,
Chris

Take a look at the HP ProCurve 2500 Series and above. The 2500 series and above supports IEEE 802.1w and/or IEEE 802.1s. Take a look at each series and see what STP protocols are supported on each switch.

Hope that helps.

 

[Steven]

VLAN vs Straight Run

Hi,

Just FYI, my experience is that VLANs are only really used for security, not for speed issues. I would consider this problem a speed issue, because unless there is some other source of traffic, even the lowest 'quality' gigabit switch should play that video fine from a bandwidth perspective.

Is there any way that the cable could have gotten damaged in that run? Almost seems like some sort of cable issue. Maybe a termination or the RJ-45 connector?

Thanks, Steven

 

[ambleside]

VLAN's are great for tagging traffic for QOS also.

I find that the HDMI reporting from player to server can be overwhelming, also the boxes just seem to chat a lot.

The unmanaged switches are your problem. They take the multicast packets and send them to every port on the unmanaged switches. With managed switches and vlans, you can control the multi-cast packets...Even without vlans, there might be some sort of storm control on the switches.

I think the SRW is just fine but you need 3. If you are rearranging things, try to get rid of a layer - get a larger switch, plug the router into it twice, set-up two networks on the router - one for k-scape, one for everything else - route between them. Then you can use an exclusive vlan for the k-scape boxes.

Since you don't have that much in each room, the "downstream" switches can be 10/100. The SRW208 will work fine - $150 each - they have gigabit uplink to the main switch...

 

[FURY]

Hi All!

I am considering a Crestron multicast addition to my kit. Any further reports on this option to cast K-scape/quliity of AV, etc.? My K-scape is a Terra prime and the Strato player purchased several months ago. Any recommendation for a 24 port multicast capable switch?

Thank you very much

FURY

 

[DieZwei]

With "Crestron multicast addition", you mean the Crestron NVX family of Encoders/Decoders?
Our standard switches are Netgear M4250 line. There are three 24(26) port switches in that line with different PoE power output and different performance on the fiber port (1GB vs. 10GB). Taking into account that one NVX-stream consumes up to 1GB, i´d go for the 10GB version if you have other switches in your network to connect to (need to support 10GB as well, of course).

 

[FURY]

Hi Zwei!

yes the NVX grouping. My router supports 10GB, but doesn't specifically a\state that it is multicast capable. I'll check with tech when open tomorrow. thanks for the reply and info on switch.

What is ur impression of say K-scape content cast using en and decoding vs. original.

thank you very much

FURY

 

[DieZwei]

yes the NVX grouping. My router supports 10GB, but doesn't specifically a\state that it is multicast capable. I'll check with tech when open tomorrow. thanks for the reply and info on switch.

Crestron has a dedicated networking guide for NVX down to which specific settings need to be done on a variety of common switch brands and models. Might worth looking into.

What is ur impression of say K-scape content cast using en and decoding vs. original.

Wo be honest, i´ve never tested NVX with Kaleidescape. K is not that widespread in Germany/EU and whenever we have to integrate it into a home cinema design, we´re going for a locally attached K player in the cinema room.
But the HDMI stream coming out of K player can go up to 9/11/13/18GB/s and NVX is working based on 1GB/s networking infrastructure. So it has to be compressed quite significantly. However, the compression algorithm is pretty good, so it´s not that bad as it sounds. But if you´re using K if you´re going for the best image quality you can get, it would seem odd to me fiddle with it afterwards.

 

[FURY]

Yep!

My initial reason for exploring the Crestron multicast option, was surveillance camera distribution, which is a soft reason, perhaps not or maybe more than K-scape/other distribution, to other locations that I currently don't have coax where I would want it and ethernet cable offered one cable solution, avoiding looong Hdmietc., etc..

thank you very much

FURY

 

[MikeKobb]

I use an NVX system at home and have found it to be very good. The biggest downside to it is that it's quite power hungry.

I have a dedicated player in my theater (actually a Strato C and an M500 as a Co-Star pair), and then I have a second pair of players that are distributed to the other rooms in the house. I consider those to be "non-critical" zones, so I was not worried about possible minor quality loss. To date, I have never noticed an issue. I have never tried hooking up an NVX receiver to the theater projector to see if any issues are visible, but given that my theater also requires a Radiance Pro, it made the most sense to have a dedicated setup there.

One other nice thing, by the way -- the NVX system can provide the Co-Star functionality in lieu of the dedicated hardware switch. There's a software license required to enable that feature.