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Latest KoS Version & Changelog?

HI Kris

(RE: Best Practices settings when using Lumagen Radiance Pro and K)

With this new kOS update and the earlier recommendation from Lumagen in regards to K:

How to set up Kaleidescape Strato & Pro to eliminate unnecessary output mode changes
With many projectors changing the output mode (.ei 4k24 to 4k60) can be rather slow. The Kaleidescape player always uses 60hz for it's menu but when playing a movie it's preferable to have it set to play at 24Hz so going between menu and movies can leave the viewer sometimes waiting 30 seconds with a blank screen while the equipment syncs up to the new output mode. A very simple way to fix this is just to set the Pro to output 4k24 for all input modes but then the less common case of 60Hz videos from the Kaliedescape would look stuttery so a method to stay in 24Hz output for only the Kaleidescape menus and 24Hz movies is desirable. There is a way to detect the special case of Kaleidescapes' menu screen and with a new option in the Pro we can eliminate this slow resync time between menus and movies and keep 60Hz videos looking good. To do this, make a change in the Kaleidescape players advanced video setup menu and set the HDMI Content Type Metadata to 'Transmit content type metadata' (the Kaleidescape will now output a special graphics flag over HDMI when in it's menu). On the Pro menu under Input: Options: HDMI Setup: Type, set the Graphic Flag Use setting to 'Use'. Now when the Kaleidescape is in it's menu the Pro will detect and use the graphics flag and classify the input mode as 'Other' (instead of 4k60). So the last setting to make is in the Pro's Output Setup menu and for the input mode condition of 'Other' change the Pro's output mode, CMS's and Style selection to match what is setup when detecting a 24Hz input mode. The Pro will now stay in the same 24Hz output mode when Kaleidescape changes between 60Hz menu and 24Hz movies but still allow the Pro to change to a 60Hz mode when 60Hz videos are played.


What is the best configuration in the Lumagen (and K) to best reduce sync times, etc.? Is making the K splash page 2.35 still the preferred set up? OR does this new kOS update make the above Lumagen firmware recommendations with K unnecessary?

Thanks so much!
Hi Jeff,

Jip P posted this a week ago at AVS Forum, maybe it can be of help.

"I am excited Kaleidescape now allows the OSD output at 24 Hertz. I have been asking for this since the Radiance intro in 2007. Their animation is targeted at 60 (or 50) Hertz, and so is not as smooth at 24 Hertz (which is why they were hesitant to add this), but I am fine with that. I have turned off cover art animation for the OSD which is a feature they added after I had made the request a couple years ago. However, I know not everyone will like the new 24 Hertz OSD output mode, but I am thrilled Kaleidescape has added it for those of us who do want the OSD at 24 Hertz.

If you set the Strato OSD output to 24 Hertz, and 2.35 aspect, you can use the recent "Graphics Flag" Radiance Pro feature to select a different memory that has Auto-Aspect turned off for the OSD, and manually select 2.35 for this memory so the OSD always is 2.35. If you do a Save after selecting 2.35 as the input aspect for this memory, it will be remembered after a power off.

You would enable the "report graphics flag" feature in the Strato, enable the new "use graphics flag" feature in the Radiance Pro, and then set the "Other" input memory for the Strato input to select a different input memory, but the same 24 Hertz output memory you want for 24 Hertz content. Then disable Auto-Aspect in the memory used for the OSD and enable it in the memory used for content.

Make sure to do a Save.

Kaleidescape is being very responsive to reasonable requests. To me this shows they are serious about their goal to be the best source device on the planet for quality, and for user experience. Congratulations to the Kaleidescape team for a great job."
 
Let me offer some observations about the question of a "best" frame rate setup. To do that, I'm first going to lay out some rather lengthy background. It will be review for some (most?) of you, but I think it's important to cover.

For about 100 years, the standard for film content has been that it is shot and projected at 24 frames per second. Televised video content (in the United States and other NTSC countries) was 30 frames per second, broadcast as 60 interlaced fields per second. Since home displays were originally for television, they were built around this 30frame/60field standard. To be able to broadcast filmed content on television (and later to sell videotapes and DVDs), it was necessary to convert 24fps film to the 60 fields per second that a TV could display. This was done by a process called "telecine" or "3:2 pulldown."

If film was 30fps instead of 24, you'd just take each film frame and slice it up into the odd and even interlaced fields, and your job would be done. But since 24 doesn't go into 60 evenly (60/24 = 2.5), what ends up happening is that sometimes you create two fields from a frame, and sometimes you create three, in an alternating cadence. When HD came along with support for 60 full progressive frames per second, this process was just extended so that you got an alternating sequence of two or three display frames (not fields) for each film frame.

This whole process works pretty well, but there's a notable artifact caused by the fact that some film frames are displayed longer than others: judder. This is a sort of unevenness in the motion that's visible when the action or camera moves in certain ways, and while it could be distracting, at first it was a largely unavoidable necessity to be able to display filmed content on a TV.

This started to change with the advent of Blu-ray Disc, which was the first home medium to support storing content in its native 24fps format. At first (and for a long time), TVs didn't accept 24fps input, and so even though the disc had 24fps content on it, the player had to do this 3:2 pulldown process internally to give the TV what it could accept. But once TVs and projectors started to natively refresh their panels at 120Hz (which is an even multiple of both 60 and 24), it became possible for a TV to accept 24fps content and display it very smoothly by simply showing each individual film frame across five display refresh cycles. So, once you had a TV that could handle it, you could just set your Blu-ray player to allow 24p output, and you'd get rid of that judder.

And this brings us to Kaleidescape. Unlike Blu-ray players and most other source devices, Kaleidescape uses extensive animation in our user interface. Animation looks best at a high frame rate, and Strato runs its onscreen display at 60 frames per second to give the smoothest possible animation. But this creates a conundrum: should we switch the output from 60 to 24 when starting playback of film content? Or should we convert to 60?

It turns out that this is a complicated question. Some displays will quickly and smoothly switch between frame rates, such that it's virtually unnoticeable. Other displays, and especially display chains (including audio and/or video processors, matrix switches, etc.) may take many seconds to respond to a change in frame rate, and during that time, you lose picture and sound at best, or see weird colored flashes at worst. So for many years we've provided the option to minimize display mode changes (accepting a little judder to avoid the signal loss), or allow display mode changes (when the display handles it well). Now we've added this third option, which is to accept degraded OSD animation in exchange for no signal loss and no judder.

And this is where I want to introduce the final wrinkle. It turns out that a number of displays and projectors include processing called "inverse-telecine," or "cinema mode," or any of a number of other variations. This processing relies on the fact that if you can detect that a 60fps signal was really originally a 24fps signal that has gone through 3:2 pulldown, you can employ a little bit of math and a little bit of video memory, and you can fully and losslessly recover that original 24fps source content. And then once you've done that, you just frame-quintuple it as you would have if you had gotten a 24fps signal over the HDMI port.

If the display's 3:2 pulldown detection is solid, and the inverse-telecine implementation is solid, then you can have the best of all worlds. You can have 60fps, smooth animation from the onscreen display, and you can have judder-free playback of film-sourced content, without the signal disruption of a frame rate change.

When I had a Sony 1100ES projector, its inverse-telecine was almost perfect, but not quite. I would get occasional stutters that were distracting enough that I opted to send it 24fps output for film content by setting my Kaleidescape player to allow display mode changes. Fortunately, the 1100ES was also pretty quick at responding to frame rate changes, and so this wasn't a great hardship, but it did produce 5-8 seconds of black screen when starting a movie.

My 995ES seems to have a flawless inverse-telecine implementation. I have never seen an artifact caused by it, at any rate. So I have now changed my players to output 60fps ("Minimize display mode changes"), and I have both 60fps animation and judder-free playback with no startup delay.

This long-winded diatribe is intended to explain why there is really not a one-size-fits-all answer to the question of which is the "best" frame rate setup. It depends completely upon the specifics of all of your connected equipment, and your own sensitivity to things like judder or delays in video/audio lock when starting and stopping playback. Don't assume that setting "Minimize display mode changes" is going to produce a compromised experience versus the more "pure" option of allowing display mode changes. It may not, if you have good inverse-telecine available to you. If you don't have good inverse-telecine available, and if display mode changes produce an unacceptably long loss of signal, then the option of running the OSD at 24fps may be the best choice, even though the OSD animation will suffer a bit.
 
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Has there been any consideration of a play & pause (either basic or intermission-like splash-screen) option? Basically have the content begin, and then immediately pause playback programmatically, to ride-out the change, and then resume once the display chain is re-locked by hitting play.
 
Let me offer some observations about the question of a "best" frame rate setup. To do that, I'm first going to lay out some rather lengthy background. It will be review for some (most?) of you, but I think it's important to cover.

For about 100 years, the standard for film content has been that it is shot and projected at 24 frames per second. Televised video content (in the United States and other NTSC countries) was 30 frames per second, broadcast as 60 interlaced fields per second. Since home displays were originally for television, they were built around this 30frame/60field standard. To be able to broadcast filmed content on television (and later to sell videotapes and DVDs), it was necessary to convert 24fps film to the 60 fields per second that a TV could display. This was done by a process called "telecine" or "3:2 pulldown."

If film was 30fps instead of 24, you'd just take each film frame and slice it up into the odd and even interlaced fields, and your job would be done. But since 24 doesn't go into 60 evenly (60/24 = 2.5), what ends up happening is that sometimes you create two fields from a frame, and sometimes you create three, in an alternating cadence. When HD came along with support for 60 full progressive frames per second, this process was just extended so that you got an alternating sequence of two or three display frames (not fields) for each film frame.

This whole process works pretty well, but there's a notable artifact caused by the fact that some film frames are displayed longer than others: judder. This is a sort of unevenness in the motion that's visible when the action or camera moves in certain ways, and while it could be distracting, at first it was a largely unavoidable necessity to be able to display filmed content on a TV.

This started to change with the advent of Blu-ray Disc, which was the first home medium to support storing content in its native 24fps format. At first (and for a long time), TVs didn't accept 24fps input, and so even though the disc had 24fps content on it, the player had to do this 3:2 pulldown process internally to give the TV what it could accept. But once TVs and projectors started to natively refresh their panels at 120Hz (which is an even multiple of both 60 and 24), it became possible for a TV to accept 24fps content and display it very smoothly by simply showing each individual film frame across five display refresh cycles. So, once you had a TV that could handle it, you could just set your Blu-ray player to allow 24p output, and you'd get rid of that judder.

And this brings us to Kaleidescape. Unlike Blu-ray players and most other source devices, Kaleidescape uses extensive animation in our user interface. Animation looks best at a high frame rate, and Strato runs its onscreen display at 60 frames per second to give the smoothest possible animation. But this creates a conundrum: should we switch the output from 60 to 24 when starting playback of film content? Or should we convert to 60?

It turns out that this is a complicated question. Some displays will quickly and smoothly switch between frame rates, such that it's virtually unnoticeable. Other displays, and especially display chains (including audio and/or video processors, matrix switches, etc.) may take many seconds to respond to a change in frame rate, and during that time, you lose picture and sound at best, or see weird colored flashes at worst. So for many years we've provided the option to minimize display mode changes (accepting a little judder to avoid the signal loss), or allow display mode changes (when the display handles it well). Now we've added this third option, which is to accept degraded OSD animation in exchange for no signal loss and no judder.

And this is where I want to introduce the final wrinkle. It turns out that a number of displays and projectors include processing called "inverse-telecine," or "cinema mode," or any of a number of other variations. This processing relies on the fact that if you can detect that a 60fps signal was really originally a 24fps signal that has gone through 3:2 pulldown, you can employ a little bit of math and a little bit of video memory, and you can fully and losslessly recover that original 24fps source content. And then once you've done that, you just frame-quintuple it as you would have if you had gotten a 24fps signal over the HDMI port.

If the display's 3:2 pulldown detection is solid, and the inverse-telecine implementation is solid, then you can have the best of all worlds. You can have 60fps, smooth animation from the onscreen display, and you can have judder-free playback of film-sourced content, without the signal disruption of a frame rate change.

When I had a Sony 1100ES projector, its inverse-telecine was almost perfect, but not quite. I would get occasional stutters that were distracting enough that I opted to send it 24fps output for film content by setting my Kaleidescape player to allow display mode changes. Fortunately, the 1100ES was also pretty quick at responding to frame rate changes, and so this wasn't a great hardship, but it did produce 5-8 seconds of black screen when starting a movie.

My 995ES seems to have a flawless inverse-telecine implementation. I have never seen an artifact caused by it, at any rate. So I have now changed my players to output 60fps ("Minimize display mode changes"), and I have both 60fps animation and judder-free playback with no startup delay.

This long-winded diatribe is intended to explain why there is really not a one-size-fits-all answer to the question of which is the "best" frame rate setup. It depends completely upon the specifics of all of your connected equipment, and your own sensitivity to things like judder or delays in video/audio lock when starting and stopping playback. Don't assume that setting "Minimize display mode changes" is going to produce a compromised experience versus the more "pure" option of allowing display mode changes. It may not, if you have good inverse-telecine available to you. If you don't have good inverse-telecine available, and if display mode changes produce an unacceptably long loss of signal, then the option of running the OSD at 24fps may be the best choice, even though the OSD animation will suffer a bit.

Mike - thanks for the advice. As a result I delved around my JVC N7 and found the “inverse-telecine” setting, set K to 60fps as you suggested and now have the best of both worlds. Like you I see no judder or artifacts of any kind going this route.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Mike - thanks for the advice. As a result I delved around my JVC N7 and found the “inverse-telecine” setting, set K to 60fps as you suggested and now have the best of both worlds. Like you I see no judder or artifacts of any kind going this route.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I was looking at the JVC for this as well. The downside is that inverse required low latency off and I have one HDMI cable from my preamp to the projector, so it's all one input. Wonder if I can use my Control4 system to engage/disengage different settings per device on the same input of the projector reliably. Cause I don't want to have to go into menus turning things on and off for different devices. Although, I really don't game much at all in the theater lately.
 
I was looking at the JVC for this as well. The downside is that inverse required low latency off and I have one HDMI cable from my preamp to the projector, so it's all one input. Wonder if I can use my Control4 system to engage/disengage different settings per device on the same input of the projector reliably. Cause I don't want to have to go into menus turning things on and off for different devices. Although, I really don't game much at all in the theater lately.

I don't game so don't need the Low Latency selection, nor do I have a Control4 system - sorry I couldn't help. But for me this is a better more rounded solution to the issue than running everything at 24Hz - each to their own though.
 
Hey, Steelman, that’s great! I’m happy it’s working well for you (and somewhat shocked that you made it all the way through my long-winded screed!)
 
Hey, Steelman, that’s great! I’m happy it’s working well for you (and somewhat shocked that you made it all the way through my long-winded screed!)

To be honest. I only picked up from the part about “Inverse-Telecine” .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
One minor thing that I’ll mention is while inverse-telecine, assuming implemented well on the display device, will work well for the vast majority of 24fps content, which is actually 23.976fps. There is an increasing amount of content, both on streaming services, on blu-ray, and in the Kaleidescape store that is encoded at exactly 24.000fps. Due to Kaleidescape outputting 60Hz in the NTSC format of 59.94Hz, this small but growing minority of 24.000fps content will still experience occasional frame drops when output at 59.94Hz with telecine, since it won’t cleanly go into it with the 3:2 frame cadence.

That being said, if your system experiences long display sync times after a frame rate change, leaving it at a static refresh rate still may provide a better overall experience if you can put up with the possible occasional frame rate issues.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
One minor thing that I’ll mention is while inverse-telecine, assuming implemented well on the display device, will work well for the vast majority of 24fps content, which is actually 23.976fps. There is an increasing amount of content, both on streaming services, on blu-ray, and in the Kaleidescape store that is encoded at exactly 24.000fps. Due to Kaleidescape outputting 60Hz in the NTSC format of 59.94Hz, this small but growing minority of 24.000fps content will still experience occasional frame drops when output at 59.94Hz with telecine, since it won’t cleanly go into it with the 3:2 frame cadence.

That being said, if your system experiences long display sync times after a frame rate change, leaving it at a static refresh rate still may provide a better overall experience if you can put up with the possible occasional frame rate issues.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks JWort93.

While I'm aware of original content now being encoded at 24.000 fps on Netflix, I was unaware of titles creeping into K. Do you know which ones?
 
Thanks JWort93.

While I'm aware of original content now being encoded at 24.000 fps on Netflix, I was unaware of titles creeping into K. Do you know which ones?

I know Uncut Gems is 24.000fps on KScape. I believe I’ve seen it a few more times too, but I can’t remember off the top of my head.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
That would make sense as that was a Netflix title.

The Florida Project is another one that is 24.000fps on Kaleidescape. So maybe just some A24 films that were also initially distributed on Netflix outside of the US (before later coming to US Netflix too)? Not sure haha. They do seem to be less common on Kaleidescape than other platforms, but some do exist.

I think they’ll become even more common as physical media continues dying, because the main reason most movies are still mastered to (or natively filmed at) 23.976fps, is because they they need a 23.976fps version for NTSC DVD and broadcast/cable tv playback.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I know Uncut Gems is 24.000fps on KScape. I believe I’ve seen it a few more times too, but I can’t remember off the top of my head.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Uncut Gems is not a Netflix title, it is a A24 title. How are you verifying this is 24.00 instead of 23.976? If there are titles that are encoded as 24.00 and K doesn't output them as 24.00, this needs to be addressed by K on their encode side to avoid frame dropping.
 
Uncut Gems is not a Netflix title, it is a A24 title. How are you verifying this is 24.00 instead of 23.976? If there are titles that are encoded as 24.00 and K doesn't output them as 24.00, this needs to be addressed by K on their encode side to avoid frame dropping.

Kaleidescape output is fine, it does 24.000Hz on Uncut Gems, and other titles where appropriate. Confirmed with both the Kaleidescape web ui, and an HDFury Vertex 2. My original comment was purely in regards to the possibility of it being an issue if you leave the Kaleidescape output locked to 59.94Hz, instead of allowing it to match framerate, then it could be an issue when utilizing the reverse telecine capability of a display with 24.000fps content.

Uncut Gems was also distributed as a Netflix original internationally, everywhere outside of the US, so that could have something to do with why it’s 24.000fps.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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I checked on how we handle 24.0 content (versus 23.976). If your display supports 24.0, we will actually go ahead and switch the output to 24.0 (even if your player is set to minimize mode changes), since 24.0 doesn't go evenly into 59.94. If the display does not report 24.0 support over HDMI, then we will go ahead and output as 59.94, which will cause some minor judder.
 
New kOS 10.10.0-22271 for the Encore systems. Any update on changes @MikeKobb ?

Thanks !
 
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Primarily under-the-hood changes, but there are a few things that may visibly affect some customers:
  1. One change that should improve things for customers using certain control systems is that sending the LEAVE_STANDBY command will also bring the system out of idle mode. Previously, it was possible to bring a player out of standby but have its video output still be muted because the system was also idle.
  2. We've added the ability to use CinemaScape when scaling is being performed by an external scaler. This means it's now possible to have the wide-screen OSD when using an external scaler.
  3. There have been some updates made to some of the advanced options in the player video configuration.
 
@Kostas did you mean 10.9.2-22102?

I stumbled across #2 and was really happy... until I noticed that it tends to clip the duration field when content runs 10+ hours (I don't remember the classic CinemaScape interface doing that,) and is made worse when sorting by that column. Could a few dozen pixels be thrown that way?
 
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