NEWS: Kaleidescape to support Blu-ray! (official)

[josh]

All, big news tonite.

Here's the details of information that will be released tomorrow for Kaleidescape dealers.

(I have received permission from Kaleidescape's executive team to be the first to publicly post this information on the web! Thanks Kaleidescape for supporting this user group!)

Details are:

• A new player will be released that plays Blu-Ray Discs in addition to DVDs, CDs, and "content from other sources."
• The new player will be compatible with all existing Kaleidescape Servers!
• The new player will support H.264 and VC-1 codecs in addition to the current MPEG-2 that Kaleidescape uses for today's DVD content.
• Kaleidescape will state that in addition to optical discs, the device will be able to theoretically support content delivered from the Internet, though it is not announcing any service details for such delivery.
• There are no plans to support HD DVD discs, but the company says it reserves the right to revisit that decision based on traction in the marketplace.
• The player will be released "in 2009."...... however, the information says that Kaleidescape "is optimistic that it will be possible to import Blu-ray Discs at that time."
  • Note the ambiguity about the release of hardware and the hope that importing of Blu-rays will be possible at that time. My guess is that this means that all of the details of Kaleidescape's implementation of managed-copy haven't been worked out yet, which is understandable. So its possible that the hardware will be out and the software will not yet be released.
    
• There will NOT be an additional fee or licensing cost for the KEAOS version that will support Blu-ray, assuming you presently have the movies-software license and have one of the new Blu-ray compatible players.
• Kaleidescape is saying that the new Blu-ray player is anticipated to cost about the same as the current Movie Player 2 which would be incredible, but there is some wiggle room here as they are telling dealers that at this date is too early to provide definitive information about pricing.

• There's one more somewhat ominous note in the information that I have. Kaleidescape is saying that it is "possible" that the studios will charge users a fee to copy a Blu-ray disc to their Kaleidescape server.

• Last, Kaleidescape is predicting that current servers should easily be able to deliver 5 simultaneous Blu-ray playbacks with the initial product, but that they may be able to tweak performance somewhat to deliver 10 or even as many as 20 simultaneous streams over a GigE network.

That's what I know tonight about the Blu-ray Disc plans.

There's more information, however, that will also be released. In addition:

• Kaleidescape for DVD content will see "improved video quality, a simpler user interface, and more foolproof video configuration."

Wow, this is very impressive, especially the fact that our current investment in server hardware is preserved and that we should have no worries about continued investment in this hardware to be ready for this major release. If the new player/reader is really the price of a MoviePlayer 2, that's incredibly impressive as well.

There you have it... very exciting.

--josh

 

[iansilv]

wow. Wow wow wow!

OK- well, when I see it, I will buy one! that's it man, I am excited!

So- is this managed copy?

 

[AC88]

Absolutely brilliant! Glad I made the K investment.

 

[josh]

The most exciting thing for me about this is that our server investment is safe. I had been concerned that we'd need new servers to support the hi-def formats.

I suspect this will open up a bunch of new sales, since many propsective owners had probably been waiting to hear if Kaleidescape would support hi-def, and if so, would it require new servers before they plunk down their $10k-25k for a server.

--josh

 

[josh]

So when will we see the necessary 5TB cartridges for the servers?

 

[cinelife]

Thanks for posting all of that info and also for keeping up with K regarding HD content importing.

So when will we see the necessary 5TB cartridges for the servers?

Agreed, a lot more storage capability will be needed to store BR movies (I'm okay with that). Many of us will likely have to add another server to accommodate our BR collections. Nice for K as well.

Jim

 

[josh]

So how do people feel about the possibility that we would have to buy the Blu-ray Disc, and then pay an additional fee for the right to store it on our servers, something we now take for granted with our DVDs and CDs?

To be clear, Kaleidescape hasn't said that that is how it's definitely going to work, but they have gone to lengths to signal that it is possible.

Sounds like they got some concessions from the Association that they'd bless the Kaleidescape storage only if there was an additional "convenience" fee that we're assessed.

I'm hoping that it doesn't come to that, or it may happen for some studios but not others.

It certainly could get out of hand - being charged for more than 10 plays? being charged per player in your house? being charged for scene-marking and scripting abilities?

Lots of other questions about what "managed copy" will really be about. Will they stop K from getting around the FBI warning messages and forced-trailers like we can do on DVDs today?

Worse yet, will they finally get their wish about forcing us to put in the physical disc every now and then? That's something Kaleidescape has been vocal about preventing - it's too much of an inconvenience for the users.

Looks like we have about a year to ponder, debate and worry about these things...

--josh

 

[beosoto]

Excellent news, it really does show how BR is winning the battle, what will happen with HD DVD in the future???

 

[rgbyhkr]

Excellent news, it really does show how BR is winning the battle, what will happen with HD DVD in the future???

With Warner dropping HD-DVD, the future of the format looks dim. It seems unlikely that even a player like Microsoft will be able to save it. Without studio support, it can't compete with Blu-Ray. Last I remember, the stories from early Jan about Warner's drop mentioned that Paramount could do the same. Paramount had been HD-DVD exclusive but decided to drop that exclusivity and do BR as well - that came around the same time as the Warner announcement. Some folks thought that Paramount was dropping HD-DVD altogether, but Paramount clarified taht and said they had no plans to do so. However, Paramount has an escape clause in its HD-DVD contract that gives it an out if Warner drops HD-DVD. So, conceivably, Paramount could drop out at any time. Personally, I think we'll see that happen this year and HD-DVD will become officially dead.

Jeff

 

[bti]

The way the guys at K-Scape have talked to us about importing Blu-rays is as follows:

1. The Blu-ray standard allows for an owner to make a backup copy of a disk they have bought
2. The Blu-ray standard doesn't detail how this would be possible
3. The standard allows for the rights holder to make an additional charge for this backup copy.

The press release seems to concur with this. Given (1) if K-Scape can get and agreement on (2) then the studios may well invoke (3)

I suppose we'll just have to wait and see.

Beyond the Invisible
K-Scape Dealer
London, UK

 

[JerryL]

Normally I am very enthusiastic about these kinds of things- but- this time I would say I am very cautiously optimistic.

The date says it would be 2009 which, given my experience with consumer electronics products, seems like it could slip to 2010- potentially more than 2 years away.

The paying to make a backup is a terrible idea. If Blu Ray becomes a mainstream standard, they could price the discs $1 higher and build this right into the initial disc purchase price. The whole managed copy thing is something the industry has got to get a handle on because there are so many easily available rippers for DVD its funny how many people I know who rip DVDs have no idea its illegal- they think that since they can copy CDs its the same thing. I know all of us here know better, but they honestly do not feel like they are acting criminally. The same thing will be true for any next gen format w/o massive consumer education. IMHO the industry should just find a way to allow for a legal copy or two to be made.

My experience with Kaleidescape is they are a first class company making a first class product so, while I am very glad K has announced something and I am hopeful- I would not view this announcement as instantly changing anything- yet it is encouraging. I guess I always knew that the servers could store the data- its the codec that is at issue and I knew we'd need new readers and players for that.

Fingers crossed that Kaleidescape can make this go. Don't get me wrong, I love my K scape, my whole house loves it, its just that theres a lot that can change- I take this announcement more as a kind of letter of intent to do something- which is a lot better than nothing- but its not that they are shipping the new player in 6 months either.

Btw- as to hard drives- yep- we will want bigger drives- if you have spots open in your server- I have been advised by their tech support that you can actually add in larger capacity drives, but to get the benefit of the larger capacity, you need at least 2 of the larger drives so they can do some form of RAID among themselves. I have to say the ease of implementation of such a powerful system is something I still marvel at. Also keep in mind that if a new BR Disc is say 40gb (I know it can go to 50 but lets talk average here) and if you already have the DVD9 of that movie on your Kscape- you could delete the DVD9 version and put in the BR version and that would get you to a net ~33gb hit- so there is a small mitigation (again, guessing the average DVD is 7GB). To imagine how many BR discs you could store, however much space you have left in terms of number of discs, if you divide that by 6 I think its a very conservative estimate.

Btw part 2- as to HDDVD- IMHO- its over. The player price cuts are a way for whomever has inventory to get something for it before they announce the format's death. I am sure they will find a way to play out 2008 but I wouldnt be surprised to see at the 2009 CES next January the remaining HDDVD exclusive studios announcing Blu Ray support.

 

[rgbyhkr]

Here's my take on this:

- K will be at the mercy of whatever the studios decide to do with MMC. They will be unlikely to secure a standalone agreement for BR content offloading regardless of whether MMC comes to light or not, so whatever the entire industry gets from MMC, K will have no more and no less. This includes pay for rips, limitations on how and to what content can be copied, etc

- Because K likes to stay legal, if MMC comes to fruition, K's implementation of BR MMC may be more limited than what you see from other solutions. Sure, they can apply things like collections, bookmarking, etc, but if MMC officially limits certain kinds of use or transfer, K won't push that boundary while others might. I have this strange feeling that when MMC drops, it will have a host of user unfriendly restrictions. K will have to abide by these unless they can find creative loopholes like they did with DVDs and the CSS license. Other manufacturers may choose to cross the line to make their products more attractive.

- A 2009 release date gives K the ability to hopefully release a player that includes the necessary items for MMC. The reason why they haven't released a player that supports BR/HD-DVD playback already is because they didn't want to have to go back again to release a unit that supported MMC. The assumption is that MMC may require additional hardware support.

- As for paying after the fact for MMC, it seems like something they will do. The issue is how to handle discs out there right now with MMC coming later. Given comments I saw when MMC was being discussed before BR or HD-DVD even launched, all BR discs sold now would be able to be used with MMC once it hits. From a price standpoint, they can either build the cost into the price of the disc or give you the option to pay for that later. Unless BR pricing from the start was taking MMC capability into account, they would lose revenue on discs sold before MMC pricing went into place (assuming that pre-MMC discs could be used for MMC). Alternatively, they could create new pricing with MMC included on new discs, thus screwing early adopters. I think they would see the compromise as offering MMC on every BR disc out there and letting folks choose to pay for a feature they may or may not want.

One interesting note here is what Fox and Warner are doing with a very few standard def DVDs (Family Guy Blue Harvest, Live Free or Die Hard, Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix, etc). They are, right now, including offloadable versions of the movie included with the DVD version. I think Fox was charging a $5 premium (MSRP difference) for the 2-disc version of Live Free or Die Hard with the digital copy vs the single disc version without. Now, there may be more special features or extras on the 2-disc version, but that gives you an idea of how they are pricing the "digital copy". I think they are slated to release 40 titles with digital copy this year to test out the appeal. that might have an impact on how, when, and what we see with MMC.

Jeff

 

[JerryL]

Cant disagree with anything Jeff says. Good points.

One thing I would point out to the copy police out there is look at Apple's sales of their family packs of software. If the price is right, people will pay to keep it legitimate- so long as also understand the issue at hand.

http://www.tuaw.com/2007/12/19/columnist-microsoft-could-learn-from-apples-family-packs/


btw- Ive bought Apple's family packs.

 

[iansilv]

Hmmm... some good points. I didn't realize the deal was still hammered out. I thought they would announce specifics of the implementation.

Well, for me, it all comes down to convenience. The k now lets its users skip annoying warnings, trailers, menus and crap and just go right to the movie. I still marvel at the complete lack of login these studios put in to placing forced advertisements for bluray on a bluray disk- you already bought it!

I for one would pay a small fee for each bluray disk copy to a Kscape server. I know it will be backed up, I know that if a hard drive fails, K will mail me one automatically. I know that basically, once I make that copy I will not have to make it again. I am even willing to have a unique id attached to a personal tracking account so if a unique id on the disk shows up at someone else's media server, my copy is disabled. I am ok with that because I buy my movies and I don't lend them out. As far as i am concerned, if you want to enjoy the fruits of an artists work, pay them for it.

That said, if I can't skip warnings, trailers, menus and just start the movie, I am not interested at all. Slysoft is very close to breaking bd+, and after that, the floodgates will open for people using and writing programs centered around illegally copy disks to a hard drive. I don't care if they consider it illegal- I will have the convenience i now have with DVDs, and I am motivated enough to make that happen in the privacy of my home.

So studios- give K owners the convenience that tey enjoy with dvds or lose money. It's that simple. At least from me.

 

[multimedes]

How much extra should we pay?

So how do people feel about the possibility that we would have to buy the Blu-ray Disc, and then pay an additional fee for the right to store it on our servers, something we now take for granted with our DVDs and CDs?

To be clear, Kaleidescape hasn't said that that is how it's definitely going to work, but they have gone to lengths to signal that it is possible.

Sounds like they got some concessions from the Association that they'd bless the Kaleidescape storage only if there was an additional "convenience" fee that we're assessed.

I'm hoping that it doesn't come to that, or it may happen for some studios but not others.

It certainly could get out of hand - being charged for more than 10 plays? being charged per player in your house? being charged for scene-marking and scripting abilities?

Lots of other questions about what "managed copy" will really be about. Will they stop K from getting around the FBI warning messages and forced-trailers like we can do on DVDs today?

Worse yet, will they finally get their wish about forcing us to put in the physical disc every now and then? That's something Kaleidescape has been vocal about preventing - it's too much of an inconvenience for the users.

Looks like we have about a year to ponder, debate and worry about these things...

--josh

Lets assume that by beginning of 2009 'K' will sell us 1Tbit storage for $1k and 1 BR disc takes 25Gbit of storage, hence 40 disc per Tbit. We will therefore already be paying $50 to store 1 BR disc assuming one pays $25/disc.
Hence I don't believe there should be any additional license fees paid by the 'K' customer, this is a business decision to be made between K and the studios any additional fees should be paid by K and taken out of their margins.
If the studios are confident that K have address the copy protection issues to their satisfaction then why shouldn't the same principles apply to making back up copies of a BR disc as for DVD and CD.
Finally if the studios did try to charge extra fees for storage on servers how would they manage the making of back up copies from Bluray read/write devices?

Des

 

[cinelife]

.........Finally if the studios did try to charge extra fees for storage on servers how would they manage the making of back up copies from Bluray read/write devices?

Des

That really would not be difficult for K to implement. Write the software to recognize the importing of a BR disk and bill the owner for that copy. Of course that would require some new accounting setup and a section at K to handle that process, which is probably not cost effective for K and not likely to happen, but it is possible.

Perhaps a simpler solution would be a "package" license similar to the packages already available. The owner would prepay for the right to import 10, 20, 30, 40....BR disks. Easily workable, IMO.

Jim

 

[sshearer]

Has anybody heard whether the new player will permit full high-res digital audio over the HDMI output? With the current players, there is only stereo audio over the HDMI output requiring the use of a separate audio cable from the player if you want 5.1 audio. This will become much more of an issue as many Blu-Ray watchers are just as interested in the upgraded audio as the upgraded video.

Scott

 

[cinelife]

Has anybody heard whether the new player will permit full high-res digital audio over the HDMI output? With the current players, there is only stereo audio over the HDMI output requiring the use of a separate audio cable from the player if you want 5.1 audio. This will become much more of an issue as many Blu-Ray watchers are just as interested in the upgraded audio as the upgraded video.

Scott

Reading between the lines of the letter sent to dealers it appears the answer to your question is "yes." K does not mention this specifically, but does indicate that the focus is HDMI, and does mention implementing HD audio They also noted the request for 1080p24 ability on the video side.

Although giving no specifics as to either (HD audio or 1080p24), they indicated they plan to develop a "very attractive" Blu-Ray player that is "highly competitive" with the leading Blu-Ray players in the marketplace. I may be mistaken, but to me that indicates their players will support these features.

Frankly, IMO, much of the value in Blu-Ray is found in the audio improvements it brings to the HT experience. Obviously the studios think so as well as evidenced by their providing these improvements in the disks and touting the audio in all of their marketing campaigns. K cannot ignore these features and still consider their player "highly competitive." Again, just my opinion.

Jim

 

[rgbyhkr]

Lets assume that by beginning of 2009 'K' will sell us 1Tbit storage for $1k and 1 BR disc takes 25Gbit of storage, hence 40 disc per Tbit. We will therefore already be paying $50 to store 1 BR disc assuming one pays $25/disc.
Hence I don't believe there should be any additional license fees paid by the 'K' customer, this is a business decision to be made between K and the studios any additional fees should be paid by K and taken out of their margins.
If the studios are confident that K have address the copy protection issues to their satisfaction then why shouldn't the same principles apply to making back up copies of a BR disc as for DVD and CD.

Just to clear up something. K's ability to rip BR discs will not be as a result of a direct deal between them and the studios. It will be a capability that the studios offer to all manufacturers as a feature of the BR format and, for the privledge, they may charge users a fee for it. If so, that fee will be applied to all users who want to take advantage of Mandatory Managed Copy (MMC). Now, you could argue that K should pick up this fee given the system's cost, but I don't see a snowball's chance of them (or any other hardware manufacturer for that matter) picking up that cost for consumers. It will just be an unfortunate aspect of the format - higher disc prices up front and an extra fee for the ability to transfer content off of the disc.

Finally if the studios did try to charge extra fees for storage on servers how would they manage the making of back up copies from Bluray read/write devices?

Des

The fee would seemingly apply to any usage of MMC. So, whether you wanted to offload content to a portable device, onto a home server, or for a backup, you'd have to pay to do so - legally. They basically offer you all these various usages for one price. It makes more business sense to sell it that way than to say X amount for usage A, Y amount for usage B, etc. It's easier for consumers to understand and they likely make more money with one fee.

Jeff

 

[cinelife]

Agree with Jeff, K will not be subsidizing our importing.

In response to the question "Will the studios charge me a fee for making a copy of the Blu-Ray disk on my player?" K's answer was "maybe."

Obviously many unanswered questions, but plenty of time to get the answers (2009)

Jim