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Kaleidescape and Krell Foundation 7.1

B

brodricj

Well-known member
⭐️⭐️PATRON⭐️⭐️
By any chance do any Kaleidescape system owners here have a Krell Foundation 7.1? Why I ask is I have a bit of a whacky audio issue with my M700 and the Krell has something to do with it.

I listen to music via the M700 analog audio outputs connected directly to my Halcro dm8 preamp. I only use the Krell when watching movies; it's connected to the M700 via HDMI. The M700 audio preferences are set to bitstream output.

Ordinarily when I listen to music the Krell remains in standby...it's not in the signal path because the M700 analog output to the pre-amp bypasses the Krell completely. However in this configuration the M700 plays music about 10% slower than the correct speed, the cadence is obviously wrong and the pitch is noticeably lower (like in the old days if you had a battery operated cassette deck, when the batteries start to go flat the tape slows down and the pitch lowers). This is what I'm hearing with my M700.

If I turn the Krell on, about 3 seconds later the cadence and pitch of the music returns to normal. I can put the Krell back to standby and playback remains normal. So at the moment my music sounds like it is coming from a cassette deck with flat batteries, until I cycle the Krell on and off. This behavior was evident in kOS 5.3.0 and 5.2.x. Prior to the Krell I had an Integra DHC 80.3 hooked up in exactly the same way and music playback was always normal. The behavior is repeatable with different CD content.
 
Very very weird. I have no idea except to cycle the Krell. I also suspect the M700 is resampling the music so I am distrustful of the analog outputs. One idea is to run a digital output for music such as the optical or coax. Does the Halcro accept digital or is it only analog? If its the latter you could invest in a good D-A.
 
I agree. That is one hell of pre amp to be using the K analog outputs! I would add that most manufacturers don't support simultaneous outputs from a similar source. I would remove the HDMI cable from the Krell or the M700 to see if that fixes the issue. If it does, then your done, as there isn't a fix for that. Otherwise, I suspect that its the analog out of the M700, which I would bet isn't the best part within the M700. If you must use the K system for music, I would have to guess that either their music player or the M300 would be better, given the lack of other moving parts.
 
The pre-amp is analog only. I have tried using several DACs on the coax output of the M700, including using the Krell as a DAC for music, but the analog outputs of the M700 (i.e. the DAC chip in the M700) clearly sounds better than all of them. At the moment my workaround is simply to cycle the Krell on/off for music, which is no big deal. But it seems weird to me having to cycle a HDMI link to get the analog outputs to work correctly. Particularly in this instance as music playback is obviously at the wrong speed on the analog output until there is a handshake negotiated with a HDMI component (but only if the Krell is that component, as I mentioned the Integra was hooked up exactly the same way but didn't cause this behavior).
 
This is really a strange one.

Does it work correctly if you set the M700 to decode the audio and pick two-channel audio? I know this won't work correctly for movies but it would be another option instead of power cycling the Krell. You can just go into the browser interface and change it depending on what your listening to. Also there is probably a command that does this through the control protocol.

John
 
It's only problematic for bitstream pass-through audio. I need the M700 this way because when the kids want to watch a movie they just turn on the Krell and everything works without me needing to go into the component settings UI and change things. If I want to listen to listen to music it's just a minor inconvenience to cycle the Krell on/off to get the audio sounding right. I could set the M700 to PCM2.0 for everything and dispense with multi-channel for movies, but I've got a big investment in the sound channel hardware so might as well use it.

I'm curious if anybody else here has the Krell whether they can replicate what I'm seeing with mine.
 
I just noticed something else interesting here...actually the Krell is connected to the M700 via a Lumagen Radiance which does all the video switching. I was playing music in the normal way, during which time I updated the Radiance software, and when the software update completed the M700 started playing slowly again, with lowered pitch as described before. When I cycled the Krell on/off the music playback on the M700 returned to normal speed.
 
Support have advised the M700 is seeing interrupted EDID information causing it to incorrectly sample 44.1kHz content at 48kHz....cycling the Krell on/off tells it what it needs to know to put it back to 44.1kHz.
 
That explanation actually makes sense. I bet it's good to know what's going on.

John
 
The level of information they can capture in the system logs and remotely diagnose system issues is very impressive.
 
The issue has been isolated to the Krell. Lumagen are previously aware of Krell HDMI issues and have suggested changing the Radiance setup from Passback Out1 EDID to Always User1 EDID will stop the Krell from putting the M700 internal DAC in the wrong mode.
 
...finally I just want to mention how good the internal audio DAC is in the M700. I've tried external DACs including NAD M51, PS Audio PerfectWave DAC Mk2, Matrix xSabre DAC, and the Krell Foundation 7.1 in my 2ch system at home and the M700 analog output direct to my analog pre-amp sounds better than all of them! I just wish K could build the M-Class players so their analog outputs were always active, even with HD audio content.
 
Kaleidescape Support mentioned a software fix in the kOS for this issue wouldn't be trivial; mine is the only configuration they are aware of that precipitates this behavior. Fortunately the Radiance workaround is available in this instance.
 
You might try the Atlona HD-Sync to improve the Krell EDID.
http://www.atlona.com/HDSync.html

Read, copy and replicate almost any EDID with the AT-HDSync. With built in EDID memory the HDSync is perfect for large installations where EDID issues usually occur. Simply learn the display’s EDID, place the HDSync in the line next to the source and watch HDCP and EDID problems disappear. The Atlona HDMI Recorder and Hot Plug Emulator is an easy and affordable solution for some of the most common installation problems out there.
 
sbutter said:
You might try the Atlona HD-Sync to improve the Krell EDID.
Click to expand...

Silly me...I guess it's a bit too much to expect a $10K Krell to work properly :eek:

(ps: that's how much they are here, you get them in the US much cheaper than that :mad:)
 
brodricj said:
...finally I just want to mention how good the internal audio DAC is in the M700. I've tried external DACs including NAD M51, PS Audio PerfectWave DAC Mk2, Matrix xSabre DAC, and the Krell Foundation 7.1 in my 2ch system at home and the M700 analog output direct to my analog pre-amp sounds better than all of them! I just wish K could build the M-Class players so their analog outputs were always active, even with HD audio content.
Click to expand...

I totally agree with this. I now use an M500 for my vintage 2-channel music room and it is great. The first time I compared to a standalone DAC I was amazed at how good the K sounded in comparison. It was a real eye opener.

John
 
Sounds interesting, though I am skeptical. When I get everything setup, I will upload a couple CD's and do a blind test between it and my Meridian-Sooloos setup.

Just so we are clear, you guys are saying that the analog outs of the m class players are the best sounding...
 
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