Short version:
If you own a Meridian system it is possible to get full high res audio from Blu Ray.
Long version:
Preface:
Some of you might have noticed a cryptic reference I made a few days ago that I was working on something. Well here it is.
Desire/Need (depending on your point of view):
To have full quality digital playback of the high res audio formats on BluRay via the new M class K players.
History:
As we have lamented, these players have many fine qualities but they lack the ability to internally fully decode Dolby True HD and DTS Master Audio. The M class players CAN decode the "core" of these audio streams- which I have listened to and they do sound very good. But in comparing the full resolution sounds that much better- its got more air and dynamics. Those of us with high end surround processors have discovered that for whatever reason they do not decode these new formats on their own. These manufacturers have decided they want someone else to do the decoding. As it turns out the vast majority of Blu Ray players can decode these formats to PCM and then pass that along HDMI with the video. But the Kaleidescape players do not perform this decoding.
So those of us with these high end processors are left out because both sides of the equation don't provide this support. While this is certainly not even close to a major problem in the world, it is an issue for those of us who thought: gee, I have a lot invested in my high end surround system and playback system... and none of these high end companies is supporting me?! RATS!
Solution:
Find some black box that could perform the decoding for us; then pass along the decoded audio soundtrack in a format that our processors could use. And that is exactly what I did. I am using an Onyko TX-NR708 receiver to decode the audio formats and the interesting part is I found someone who knows how to do a little "black magic" and he converted the 3 coax digital inputs to digital outputs that the Meridian processor can understand as 5.1 channels of high resolution sound. Don't get hung up on this at this point- just accept that it works.
So in the end the receiver is a decoder and it passes along in a format that works for a Meridian processor the full resolution digital sound. It works and it sounds great.
Implementation/ details:
Necessity being the mother of innovation, I worked with what I had. In my case that is a Meridian 861 surround processor. Its important to understand that I have Meridian digital speakers- if I had regular analog speakers I would have at least considered changing processors. But in my case that is not really possible as those speakers work only with a Meridian source.
The 861 has some interesting things about it. For example it allow you to group 3 coax digital audio inputs into one multi channel digital input. Several years ago Meridian had to come up with a method to transmit high resolution audio from DVD-As (remember those? Meridian was a big proponent of DVD-A. Taking a quick detour here- Meridian developed a lossless audio codec called Meridian Lossless Packing ("MLP") and that was the basis for DVD-A. Guess what? MLP is the underlying codec Dolby uses for TrueHD!- so to my mind its ironic that their own processor cant decode it!!! GRRRR) So getting back on track, the SPDIF (Sony Philips Digital Audio InterFace) connections we all know and love can handle 2 channels of high res audio on them. What Meridian did was take 3 coax feeds from its DVD-A player (each with 2 channels of high res audio for 5.1 channels) and then allow users to assign a group of 3 coax inputs together to form 1 multi channel digital input.
Summing all that up: the Meridian processors have a way of accepting 3 coax digital inputs with 2 channels of high res audio on them as one 5.1 multichannel input.
Add to that I now have a source in the form of a modified receiver that can output the digital signal in this format and we have a win: full quality, digital, high resolution audio for Meridian systems. I am not aware of the other high end surround processor companies using this 3xCoax format.
Issues/ Caveats/Observations:
* Obviously this only works if you have a Meridian Surround processor capable of accepting 3XCoax
* This method is limited to 5.1. This doesn't bother me very much though as the matrixing Meridian uses to create 7.1 from 5.1 is very good and there are not that many 7.1 sountracks out there right now.
*I am advised the digital tap is after the DSP so the Onkyo could be coloring the sound a bit. But, according to Onyko when I use the pure audio mode the receiver does not apply any DSP to the sound. I've briefly tried toggling between Pure Audio and Direct and I don't hear much difference. Right now Im just happy that this works
and the sound when comparing to my Oppo Blu Ray player is indistinguishable. (test movie is Avatar, I have 2 copies)
*The Onkyo is doing something to the video despite my telling it to turn off everything- its reclocking the video from the K players native 23.98hz output to 24.00 hz. This causes a slight stutter every few minutes of playback. My solution is to get a HDMI splitter from Gefen and run one feed to the Onkyo for surround decoding and the other to my video processor.
*With regular DD/DTS on DVDs, the M500 seems to be decoding the formats to PCM- even if you select bitstream output. Theres really no downside here, the decoding is very good, I think its just interesting to note.
*Gee whiz, thats a lot of brain damage, why not just get a receiver and use the pre amp outs? You could do that. And that would work for anyone with a processor with multichannel analog inputs. But there you are at the mercy of the quality of the digital to analog converters used in the receiver (hint a $500 onkyo won't have the kind of quality a Meridian owner would want!) and again at the mercy of how good the analog to digital converters are on the surround processor. I've spoken with people who have done this and they say they can't hear much difference between the high res audio once converted this way and the core audio. It is a way to do it, but I think you will spend a lot to get really good converters. Its a lot cleaner to do it digitally.
I was surprised to learn that while these new audio formats are capable of 7.1 channels at 96khz, most are 5.1 at 48khz. The thing is, once you get away from the specs, it sounds great and that is my most important factor.
I am not posting the contact information for the person who helped me right now as I have asked him for his permission to do so but I have not yet heard back from him. I would be happy to put anyone interested in this in touch with him. The receiver was like $500 from Amazon and I don't want to give away the cost of his work right now without his permission but lets just say the total cost of all of this was very reasonable- and he was great to work with.
A final note of gratitude goes out to Kaleidescape for loaning me a M500 player. Everyone who has experience with these players loves them. The new interface is terrific and the video quality is the equal of any blu ray player out there which means its excellent. The audio, when the player is decoding the core is very good and I think most people in most systems will be extremely pleased. A few of us have systems that would allow the high res audio to really shine and for those of us who do, we really are best served by finding a way to make this work. I think I've got a good solution for anyone with a Meridian system.
Here are some screen grabs.
If you own a Meridian system it is possible to get full high res audio from Blu Ray.
Long version:
Preface:
Some of you might have noticed a cryptic reference I made a few days ago that I was working on something. Well here it is.
Desire/Need (depending on your point of view):
To have full quality digital playback of the high res audio formats on BluRay via the new M class K players.
History:
As we have lamented, these players have many fine qualities but they lack the ability to internally fully decode Dolby True HD and DTS Master Audio. The M class players CAN decode the "core" of these audio streams- which I have listened to and they do sound very good. But in comparing the full resolution sounds that much better- its got more air and dynamics. Those of us with high end surround processors have discovered that for whatever reason they do not decode these new formats on their own. These manufacturers have decided they want someone else to do the decoding. As it turns out the vast majority of Blu Ray players can decode these formats to PCM and then pass that along HDMI with the video. But the Kaleidescape players do not perform this decoding.
So those of us with these high end processors are left out because both sides of the equation don't provide this support. While this is certainly not even close to a major problem in the world, it is an issue for those of us who thought: gee, I have a lot invested in my high end surround system and playback system... and none of these high end companies is supporting me?! RATS!
Solution:
Find some black box that could perform the decoding for us; then pass along the decoded audio soundtrack in a format that our processors could use. And that is exactly what I did. I am using an Onyko TX-NR708 receiver to decode the audio formats and the interesting part is I found someone who knows how to do a little "black magic" and he converted the 3 coax digital inputs to digital outputs that the Meridian processor can understand as 5.1 channels of high resolution sound. Don't get hung up on this at this point- just accept that it works.
So in the end the receiver is a decoder and it passes along in a format that works for a Meridian processor the full resolution digital sound. It works and it sounds great.
Implementation/ details:
Necessity being the mother of innovation, I worked with what I had. In my case that is a Meridian 861 surround processor. Its important to understand that I have Meridian digital speakers- if I had regular analog speakers I would have at least considered changing processors. But in my case that is not really possible as those speakers work only with a Meridian source.
The 861 has some interesting things about it. For example it allow you to group 3 coax digital audio inputs into one multi channel digital input. Several years ago Meridian had to come up with a method to transmit high resolution audio from DVD-As (remember those? Meridian was a big proponent of DVD-A. Taking a quick detour here- Meridian developed a lossless audio codec called Meridian Lossless Packing ("MLP") and that was the basis for DVD-A. Guess what? MLP is the underlying codec Dolby uses for TrueHD!- so to my mind its ironic that their own processor cant decode it!!! GRRRR) So getting back on track, the SPDIF (Sony Philips Digital Audio InterFace) connections we all know and love can handle 2 channels of high res audio on them. What Meridian did was take 3 coax feeds from its DVD-A player (each with 2 channels of high res audio for 5.1 channels) and then allow users to assign a group of 3 coax inputs together to form 1 multi channel digital input.
Summing all that up: the Meridian processors have a way of accepting 3 coax digital inputs with 2 channels of high res audio on them as one 5.1 multichannel input.
Add to that I now have a source in the form of a modified receiver that can output the digital signal in this format and we have a win: full quality, digital, high resolution audio for Meridian systems. I am not aware of the other high end surround processor companies using this 3xCoax format.
Issues/ Caveats/Observations:
* Obviously this only works if you have a Meridian Surround processor capable of accepting 3XCoax
* This method is limited to 5.1. This doesn't bother me very much though as the matrixing Meridian uses to create 7.1 from 5.1 is very good and there are not that many 7.1 sountracks out there right now.
*I am advised the digital tap is after the DSP so the Onkyo could be coloring the sound a bit. But, according to Onyko when I use the pure audio mode the receiver does not apply any DSP to the sound. I've briefly tried toggling between Pure Audio and Direct and I don't hear much difference. Right now Im just happy that this works
and the sound when comparing to my Oppo Blu Ray player is indistinguishable. (test movie is Avatar, I have 2 copies)
*The Onkyo is doing something to the video despite my telling it to turn off everything- its reclocking the video from the K players native 23.98hz output to 24.00 hz. This causes a slight stutter every few minutes of playback. My solution is to get a HDMI splitter from Gefen and run one feed to the Onkyo for surround decoding and the other to my video processor.
*With regular DD/DTS on DVDs, the M500 seems to be decoding the formats to PCM- even if you select bitstream output. Theres really no downside here, the decoding is very good, I think its just interesting to note.
*Gee whiz, thats a lot of brain damage, why not just get a receiver and use the pre amp outs? You could do that. And that would work for anyone with a processor with multichannel analog inputs. But there you are at the mercy of the quality of the digital to analog converters used in the receiver (hint a $500 onkyo won't have the kind of quality a Meridian owner would want!) and again at the mercy of how good the analog to digital converters are on the surround processor. I've spoken with people who have done this and they say they can't hear much difference between the high res audio once converted this way and the core audio. It is a way to do it, but I think you will spend a lot to get really good converters. Its a lot cleaner to do it digitally.
I was surprised to learn that while these new audio formats are capable of 7.1 channels at 96khz, most are 5.1 at 48khz. The thing is, once you get away from the specs, it sounds great and that is my most important factor.
I am not posting the contact information for the person who helped me right now as I have asked him for his permission to do so but I have not yet heard back from him. I would be happy to put anyone interested in this in touch with him. The receiver was like $500 from Amazon and I don't want to give away the cost of his work right now without his permission but lets just say the total cost of all of this was very reasonable- and he was great to work with.
A final note of gratitude goes out to Kaleidescape for loaning me a M500 player. Everyone who has experience with these players loves them. The new interface is terrific and the video quality is the equal of any blu ray player out there which means its excellent. The audio, when the player is decoding the core is very good and I think most people in most systems will be extremely pleased. A few of us have systems that would allow the high res audio to really shine and for those of us who do, we really are best served by finding a way to make this work. I think I've got a good solution for anyone with a Meridian system.
Here are some screen grabs.
Attachments
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