How to make Kscape bigger and more mainstream?

[JoshATX]

So a couple thoughts here. By way of disclosure I have a single alto which I love and am looking to expand. Also while I can afford to generally buy what I want I don't spend frivolously (how I've gotten to the point where I can afford to buy what I want). Just looking at kscape and where they are and what I "see" as the coming future.

I'd completely buy into kscape's ecosystem if the following existed:

• A way for me to add my own storage, this is something that is exceedingly straightforward to accomplish and numerous devices I own support nearly transparently. I understand there would be requirements for performance, etc. all of these things already exist. The fact is I can buy a high quality 8TB external USB3 drive for $250 or less and having to rely on an installer or overly marked up drives makes no sense to me
• A $1000 player that I could add to my system while adding my own storage. I'm completely bought into kscape and the benefits it provides but when looking at 4k players that are $130-$200 from competitors (yes streaming, yes lower quality, but 10x lower quality?...) it just gets difficult to justify. Again, I can accept a premium, not sure a 20-30x premium works for me though.
• The store on the player and that works well on a phone, I actually end up buying a lot of movies through VUDU or other stores because I can do it on my phone easily. Kscape completely misses out on the opportunity to sell movies to people who are just browsing to watch something on a Friday night. This is a revenue opportunity that I can't see why to ignore. *perhaps* even a stream now option which gives a lower quality but instant experience... again, a bit of an issue but perhaps doable.
• The ability to share scripts, user defined scenes, etc. with friends who own the same content. A potentially great way to encourage people to watch more and share more, which leads to more people buying more movies. It could even become a legal outlet for fan edits (which today live only in the piracy world).

Apologies if this is a bit of a rant, I'd just love to see more kscape uptake and them as a company succeed on a massive level. I think there is a bit of a challenge catering to the price point they are in right now and their tech could easily create a real solid value story for the right audience which would ultimately lead to a far broader market.

There are other concerns I have as well but frankly I think they feed from the small market that kscape currently has. How motivated is a studio to work with them based on their customer base? Not very is my guess, when you scale to a far larger user base suddenly things get more interesting. The way forward to me is accessibility. If I could order another player when I added a TV outside for a newly remolded patio or just add a hard drive easily when I am running low on space and want to purchase more content (from kscape) I'd be married to their ecosystem. As of now, it's a bit of a harder sell.

I may be nuts, and honestly if so I hope someone tells me this is just my thinking on what would make sense for kscape to really blow up as a business.

 

[Mr.Poindexter]

Josh,

Would you be willing to accept ZERO tech support for third party storage devices? Would that diminish your opinion of Kaleidescape?

If you expect some level of tech support for products they do not sell, would you be willing to pay even more for their other equipment to make up for both the loss in revenue from selling storage and their increased tech support costs?

Would you accept an increase in costs for their players even without any tech support for the third party products just to offset loss of revenue from the storage side?

It sounds to me like you would like them to have lower cost products, eliminate a large part of their revenue stream at the same time while increasing their tech support costs.

I do not think you are being nuts. I think you are being unrealistic by ignoring the actual implications to a company's bottom line that the changes you are looking for would do. Also, by adding in the streaming options at lower quality, you are making them a "me too" in the low price point world that they simply are not going to compete in any better than Porsche did with the low end car market with their Porsche 914. Granted, the 914 sucked, but it was because they were putting out product in a segment of the market that wasn't where their core competence focused.

Kaleidescape is a premium quality product. To become a competitor at a cost level with entry level products is going to either force them to have a lower quality product overall, thus alienating their core customer base that has made them successful while not even guaranteeing they will compete against the Fire Sticks and Apple TVs of the world. If they do this, they might actually blow up as a business, but not in the good way you think.

 

[JoshATX]

Great points definitely some good ones to think about. On the point of expecting support for third party drives, etc. yes, there should be some level of support but not beyond basic troubleshooting for a drive that is validated against their spec. We are talking hard drives via well established standard connections here, not custom parts in a house made mechanical watch movement. Also I'm not suggesting kscape remove their options for those who would rather pay an installer such as yourself for truly integrated experiences that they never have to think about; that's a great option which certainly costs more and some people are willing to pay for.

You're likely right about the streaming deal and in some ways it's another stretch I'm making to sort out the insane cost of simply adding more storage which I perceive to be the crux of the challenge. Streaming is likely just be a bad idea.

I like your car analogy though if we say other solutions are like a Honda Accord then based on the cost differential which is close to 30x for 4K streamers to a strato you're looking at a Mclaren level improvement on experience based on cost. I'm not sure a Mclaren experience exists in this space or realistically needs to.

Also when it comes to studio partnerships I think it is tough to argue that a bigger customer base gives kscape a better bargaining chip. At the end of the day the studios want to sell as many movies as possible at the highest margin possible. If you were in the shoes of a studio exec would you invest time working with kscape and their tens of thousands of customers (speculating on numbers) or worn vudu, iTunes, etc and their millions of customers?

Maybe it is another product line but I do think it would benefit kscape to have a broader customer base (and its customers as well). I don't have insight into how they are performing as a business so I can't comment on their level of success as an authorized installer you likely have better insights there.

Another thought for you as an installer. If kscape was more accessible in some ways it's brand would be more well known to non-hardcore AV enthusiasts. Would that make your life easier selling the higher end systems to your clients? I know several people who could easily afford a premier system but haven't even heard of kscape so it isn't a topic they we're considering for their media installations. Makes for a bigger up hill battle as an installer trying to sell it.

Again just my thoughts. Definitely appreciate the differing views.

 

[Mr.Poindexter]

My $0.02 here:

More numbers certainly helps in negotiating with studios, but the numbers the studios generally are interested in is sales and so the Kaleidescape user base should have a modifier it is multiplied against representing that their users spend more on average than an iTunes or Vudu user. While I don't have the data to back that up, I would be willing to bet that is the case.

As for me as an installer, I make recommendations to the customer so he doesn't have to know all the brands and gadgets available. It is my job to inform him of those. I have done systems where customers come with a budget that didn't cover a Kaleidescape or other goodies. I designed the system within budget but then told the owner it was my duty to inform him/her of things that the budget did not cover so that they understand what they are missing out on, in the event they want to either change their budget to include them or adjust priorities to work them in. A customer who hasn't heard of something is only going to cut into sales of order takers, not of people who actually know how to market and sell.

 

[Mr.Poindexter]

Back on the car analogy, comparing streaming to download systems isn't like comparing a honda accord to a McLaren. It is like comparing a Mercedes to taking Uber. There is no real ownership of the content with a streaming system and as such, it doesn't have the same back end hardware required to house it and run the software. So many people compare the cost of a Kaleidescape to the cost of a hard drive, as if the video card, power supply, case, software, etc are not to be included on the computer DIY side.

 

[JohnJ]

So a couple thoughts here. By way of disclosure I have a single alto which I love and am looking to expand. Also while I can afford to generally buy what I want I don't spend frivolously (how I've gotten to the point where I can afford to buy what I want). Just looking at kscape and where they are and what I "see" as the coming future.

I'd completely buy into kscape's ecosystem if the following existed:

• A way for me to add my own storage, this is something that is exceedingly straightforward to accomplish and numerous devices I own support nearly transparently. I understand there would be requirements for performance, etc. all of these things already exist. The fact is I can buy a high quality 8TB external USB3 drive for $250 or less and having to rely on an installer or overly marked up drives makes no sense to me
  

The part you are requesting above goes against everything that the studios are DEMANDING going forward with 4K UHD. The studios have shown that one of the key interests is keeping their content secure. Hence the whole new architecture of the Strato for 4K. Allowing 3rd party memory goes totally against this priority - K would be allowing proprietary content to be loaded on 3rd party hardware which the studios do not have any control over.

In the past, I would have said it would not happen due to K's business model. Now it is a requirement to do business with K's key vendors.

John

 

[David23]

In the past, I would have said it would not happen due to K's business model. Now it is a requirement to do business with K's key vendors.

Yep, that's the answer. The only real alternative for a cheaper K system would be a streaming solution.

 

[cinelife]

One of the key factors in permitting K to do what they do is the proprietary "closed" system that they created, I would not expect a change.



Jim

 

[JoshATX]

...It is like comparing a Mercedes to taking Uber. There is no real ownership of the content with a streaming system and as such, it doesn't have the same back end hardware required to house it and run the software. So many people compare the cost of a Kaleidescape to the cost of a hard drive, as if the video card, power supply, case, software, etc. are not to be included on the computer DIY side.

I'm not comparing the cost of a K system to the cost of a hard drive, just the cost of adding what I need, which is only more storage, to the cost of what is I'm forced to buy from K today in that scenario.

In terms of the comment on Uber, not sure I'd agree. What happens if K disappears tomorrow to content that is "owned" by a user on their local setup? I don't know what frequency the studios make K check for rights, etc. but if the user can't connect to K that may be a problem in the future with the Strato model. Also if the HD fails, if K is gone you have no method for re-gaining the content if purchased digitally from K unless the movie is UV supported (or DMA if that agreement gets put in place eventually). I'm not sure it's that different from a rights perspective comparing it to a streamer.

The part you are requesting above goes against everything that the studios are DEMANDING going forward with 4K UHD. The studios have shown that one of the key interests is keeping their content secure. Hence the whole new architecture of the Strato for 4K. Allowing 3rd party memory goes totally against this priority - K would be allowing proprietary content to be loaded on 3rd party hardware which the studios do not have any control over...

The keeping of content secure is already something that is addressed by many providers today. There are many ways to download content both music and video to a device that I control/provide. Microsoft for example has a propriety format they use for hard drives that connect to an xbox one, this format allows you to use it to store games, videos, etc. but makes it unusable by a computer unless you reformat (thus securing content).

Vudu and many other services offer downloading of movies for offline viewing to a hard drive in a computer or on an iPad, etc. The iPad is closed, sure, but a computer is about as non-closed as it gets. I'm not sure I see how this would be different, the solution from a technical perspective already exists and is in use with studios today, I've seen up to HDX offered. I don't own a UHD movie yet to check with.

In reality I'd argue that an off the shelf USB 3 hard drive formatted or encrypted in a proprietary kscape manner would be more secure than a BD disc is.

Whether studios lawyers would see the logic here is entirely another question so I do agree it could pose a challenge. At the end of the day it has to show benefit to their negotiation with the studios... which might be as simple as "the customer won't be limited from buying more content by the cost of storage".

There is an installer market (which I see many of you are part of) to consider as well. Part of kscape's business relies on that and it's tricky to skate the line between customers who want to deal with something like adding storage themselves vs it being profitable for an installer and giving enough mark up for them to make a profit.

I hope you guys are enjoying this discussion as much as I am. It's kind of fun to speculate on what could work or why it wouldn't.

 

[tzfan]

Maybe the more interesting discussion, since we know K is not going to allow 3rd-party storage for the previously mentioned reasons, is what could/might K do to reach a broader marketplace?

Certainly, the Cinema One was a good first stab at a mid-market price point for an all-in-one movie server but its limited expansion capabilities constrained its utility.

Streaming is out since this ground is already well-covered and doesn't fit with K's consistent performance credo.

Here are some ideas:

Improved support for multi-locational viewing (more than one physical property) could be appealing to new buyers. Produce a shrunken client-server that could be taken on trips; we do this all the time with Roku so we don't need to carry media any more and it is wonderful. One could create categories of movies that would automatically be stored on the portable unit and then this unit could be removed for traveling.

A cost-effective hardware and content bundle, say any 50 movies from the online store that a buyer could choose individually. Since content will be the initial draw rather than hardware, better bundling would draw in more buyers.

Voice control of the system for rapid list filtering and content selection.

 

[Mr.Poindexter]

The keeping of content secure is already something that is addressed by many providers today. There are many ways to download content both music and video to a device that I control/provide. Microsoft for example has a propriety format they use for hard drives that connect to an xbox one, this format allows you to use it to store games, videos, etc. but makes it unusable by a computer unless you reformat (thus securing content).

Vudu and many other services offer downloading of movies for offline viewing to a hard drive in a computer or on an iPad, etc. The iPad is closed, sure, but a computer is about as non-closed as it gets. I'm not sure I see how this would be different, the solution from a technical perspective already exists and is in use with studios today, I've seen up to HDX offered. I don't own a UHD movie yet to check with.

In reality I'd argue that an off the shelf USB 3 hard drive formatted or encrypted in a proprietary kscape manner would be more secure than a BD disc is.

What studios are looking for isn't just more secure than a BD. The Kaleidescape Premier server is already, but the studios were not satisfied with that for storing 4K content. Does Vudu allow one to download 4K content to their computers? Or are we comparing encryption requirements for 1080p from one provider to the requirements for 4K for another?

 

[JoshATX]

I don't what they offer for UHD as I don't own a movie to test with. They do allow it for 1080p frankly if I could add my own storage for 1080p movies and have to use built in for 4K that would at least be something. Anticipating the rebuttals to that ahead of time that it would be too confusing I don't see it as more confusing that the arrangement with Disney or the inconsistency with studios that support UV but not with Kscape.

Now that I think about it vudu could be a dangerous competitor if they had a "download lossless" option with decent software to manage things. Not a simple prospect but they already have PC and Mac software to manage this to a degree. Just not lossless....

They don't seem to be interested in competing in the truly high end space in terms of AV quality. Yeah they have 4K but at a way lower bit rate than to do full 4K HDR with Atmos, etc. that's where I see kscape with no real competition, again I love kscape I just wish it was easier for me to justify paying their premium for storage.

 

[HiFiGuy1]

Vudu is all about convenience at an acceptable level of quality. K is all about the best available quality (audio AND video) with a super-usable interface. The larger a Vudu/UV account grows, the more cumbersome it becomes to manage and find what you want. OTOH, the more movies you have on K, the more useful the interface becomes.

As far as security, I won't rehash in detail what a couple have already covered, but buying a drive from Amazon or Tiger Direct and using it in your Buffalo NAS with a K system ain't gonna happen, and it's the studios that are steering that ship. Remember, that's why we can't even use existing Premiere servers with the new Strato players, because the studios don't even think that closed, proprietary system is enough to satisfy them.

As far as storage, etc. for locally downloaded HDX content, again it goes back to quality. Because of that, I am willing to almost guarantee that Vudu or any other provider will never be able to turn loose a bit-for-bit BD stream that can go onto a PC, much less the UHD/4K equivalent. The studios will never allow it. That is a tacit acknowledgement by Hollywood, BTW, that the performance of the K system is essentially perfect in that regard, and they don't think even HDX is really good enough to worry about. Think about that for a minute!