What do you need to fully enjoy Strato K, 4K Cinematic, and 4:4:4 chroma?

[josh]

Since I'm finding myself confused, I may not be alone.

Wondering if some of the real AV tech gurus can help explain to me/us what is needed to fully enjoy the new capabilities and higher bitrate format in the Strato K?

• What current/recent panel displayscan handle the full quality of the signal?
  • and, what settings need to be enabled/disabled within the settings?
• For projectors, does 4:4:4 make as noticeable of a difference, and if so, which current projectors can make use of it?
• Signal path: AVRs- if your path runs from player through an AVR and then on to display/projector, is that likely to mess with the new chroma capabilities?
  • Which AVRs will pass it through properly, and which won't?
  • What settings would you need to enable/disable on the AVR?
• Signal path: cables - do you need specific higher bandwidth cables to get the full benefit?
• External processors: there's been some discussion of this on the Strato K mega-thread, but would be great to summarize it here: if you use an external scaler/processor like MadVR or Lumagen (others?), do they support 4:4:4, will you benefit by the K/4K-C as much, not at all, or more than those not using an external processor? Do you need the newest/most expensive model to fully benefit?
  • ... and, what settings on the processor need to be enabled/disabled?
• Calibration: if one's display was reasonably well calibrated for say a Strato V previously, would you want to be recalibrated after switching to a Strato K?

I'm hoping we can keep this thread on-topic, specifically about equipment needs and settings to get the most out of a new Strato K and 4K Cinematic content.

I plan to be pretty judicious in deleting or moving posts in THIS thread that are not responsive to the topic to keep it to succinct and valuable technical advice to those contemplating the benefits of a Strato K.

Thanks for the insights & advice!

 

[rafaelsmith]

While I am still undecided and ways off from getting K, I am interested in this info as well.

I did some quick googling and came something about JVC Projector Clear Motion Drive, MPC that can take advantage of 4:4:4. This...of course from AI so no clue if accurate or not or if makes any difference.

 

[Imakeller]

Cross-posting this information from @Techthusiasm . Information from MadVR about the Strato K.

https://madvrenvy.com/wp-content/uploads/Envy-Setup-Guide-KScape.pdf?r=210%5B/URL%5D

I'm told I'm allowed to share this link. madVR updated their Kaleidescape setup FAQ with a dedicated section on the K. I will be covering this ASAP in my setup.

https://madvrenvy.com/wp-content/uploads/Envy-Setup-Guide-KScape.pdf?r=210

 

[josh]

I think a good start is ensuring that the native media is captured by enabling “allow display mode changes with external scaler” option under advance settings. Just like J. Green was alluding to on the main K thread. The movie will be output using the original chroma and colorspace.

I think this should apply to other platforms as well.

thank you, yes, i should have specifically also asked for any settings within Kaleidescape that need to be a certain way.

 

[Broncowrangler]

Will there be any benefit on the K if the HDMI input on Av processors/ receivers are set to 8k enhanced (for additional bandwidth), or will 4k enhanced suffice?

 

[DieZwei]

External processors: there's been some discussion of this on the Strato K mega-thread, but would be great to summarize it here: if you use an external scaler/processor like MadVR or Lumagen (others?), do they support 4:4:4, will you benefit by the K/4K-C as much, not at all, or more than those not using an external processor? Do you need the newest/most expensive model to fully benefit?

As there was some confusion about the capabilities of the madVR Envy (any model) in other threads I repeat here a quote from the developer of the madVR Envy from early 2022. This information is true for all Envy´s ever produced:
"Pipeline bitdepth is an interesting topic. A pipeline can use either integer or floating point math, and you can have a pipeline in either 4:2:2 or 4:4:4, and you can count bitdepth either per component or per pixel. Envy's pipeline is full 4:4:4, from start to finish. If the input signal is 4:2:2 or 4:2:0, Envy always upscales chroma to 4:4:4 in the first step, usually using AI chroma upscaling. If you want to see some bitdepth per pixel numbers, here you go:

8bit per component 4:2:2 = 16bit per pixel
10bit per component 4:2:2 = 20bit per pixel
12bit per component 4:2:2 = 24bit per pixel
16bit per component 4:2:2 = 32bit per pixel
16bit per component 4:4:4 = 48bit per pixel (Envy temporary buffers)
32bit per component 4:4:4 = 96bit per pixel (Envy calculations)

It could be argued that the bitdepth only needs to be high enough to not introduce any banding (or other) artifacts, so maybe Envy is going overboard here. But that's just the native bitdepth Direct3D GPUs are working in, so it doesn't cost us anything. Now if you'd ask me how many bits a video processing pipeline needs to have, I don't really know. But surely it doesn't hurt to be on the safe side."

 

[KDeering]

Will there be any benefit on the K if the HDMI input on Av processors/ receivers are set to 8k enhanced (for additional bandwidth), or will 4k enhanced suffice?

4K enhanced will be fine for any of the 4K playback options. Obviously 8K playback will require 8K enhanced.

 

[randman]

For the Marantz AV 10, I believe it’s Video mode will need to be set to Bypass in order to pass 4:4:4. Otherwise, if not set to Bypass, it will convert the signal to 4:2:2 for 4K or 4:2:0 for 8K.

I still have a MadVR Envy mk1 which has an HDMI 2.0 input board (and HDMI 2.1 output). I expect it should work just fine with 4K 24Hz movies with 4:4:4, but probably not 60Hz movies (there are only 2 60Hz movies AFAIK so not worried about 60Hz movies).

I set my JVC DLA-RS3100 (NZ8) to use EDID B (HDMI 2.0). For some reason, I have trouble using its EDID A (HDMI 2.1). I suspect it’s due to the madVR’s HDMI 2.0 input board. I hope it’s not due to my HDMI cable (I haven’t had much reason to test its HDMI 2.1 function it in the past).

So; I think my equipment might be good for 4K 24Hz movies from Strato K, but whether or not I can actually tell the difference between a Strato C (what I have now) and a potential Strato K, I don’t know.

 

[dropzone7]

I was an early adopter of the Strato V so I think I will sit back and wait on the K a while. The limiting factor in my setup will be the Lumagen Radiance Pro which won't handle the 4:4:4 chroma other than converting it to 4:2:0 or 4:2:2 I suppose. If it were not for the 4K Cinematic files and 4K GUI of the new K player I wouldn't even consider replacing my Lumagen. I have just been disappointed in the 1080p GUI of the Strato V and I would like to take advantage of the 4:4:4 chroma and larger files. My current setup is Strato V - Anthem AVM70 8K - Radiance Pro - JVC RS3100 with Panamorph.

 

[kimg1453]

I was an early adopter of the Strato V so I think I will sit back and wait on the K a while. The limiting factor in my setup will be the Lumagen Radiance Pro which won't handle the 4:4:4 chroma other than converting it to 4:2:0 or 4:2:2 I suppose. If it were not for the 4K Cinematic files and 4K GUI of the new K player I wouldn't even consider replacing my Lumagen. I have just been disappointed in the 1080p GUI of the Strato V and I would like to take advantage of the 4:4:4 chroma and larger files. My current setup is Strato V - Anthem AVM70 8K - Radiance Pro - JVC RS3100 with Panamorph.

I have a Strato C running to a Lumagen Radiance Pro, then on to a Christie 4K32 RGB projector. The Lumagen will certainly produce 4:2:2 and the Christie can process anything including full 12 bit 4:4:4. I do get a beautiful picture with this set up based on content. I'm in the same boat as you as I would like to know if using the Strato K will show an improvement in my system as it is, and if so, how much before I would make a switch. However, at this stage, I certainly can't justify spendiing 10K on the Lumagen Artisan, if that's required, to possibly get a very slight improvement over my current set up by inserting a Strato K in the chain. So Im just taking this all in for now.

 

[Imakeller]

For the Marantz AV 10, I believe it’s Video mode will need to be set to Bypass in order to pass 4:4:4. Otherwise, if not set to Bypass, it will convert the signal to 4:2:2 for 4K or 4:2:0 for 8K.

I still have a MadVR Envy mk1 which has an HDMI 2.0 input board (and HDMI 2.1 output). I expect it should work just fine with 4K 24Hz movies with 4:4:4, but probably not 60Hz movies (there are only 2 60Hz movies AFAIK so not worried about 60Hz movies).

I set my JVC DLA-RS3100 (NZ8) to use EDID B (HDMI 2.0). For some reason, I have trouble using its EDID A (HDMI 2.1). I suspect it’s due to the madVR’s HDMI 2.0 input board. I hope it’s not due to my HDMI cable (I haven’t had much reason to test its HDMI 2.1 function it in the past).

So; I think my equipment might be good for 4K 24Hz movies from Strato K, but whether or not I can actually tell the difference between a Strato C (what I have now) and a potential Strato K, I don’t know.

Good point advising people with MadVR to set their AVP/AVR for pass-through/bypass to avoid video processing. The first thing a MadVR does is convert chroma to 4:4:4 and it will do it better than the AVP/AVR would.

 

[Reezepees]

Can the new Luma hd Fury "handle" the new K player, fully?

 

[4:4:4]

I asked Jim Peterson, the President of Lumagen, if he could comment on how a 4:4:4 signal would be handled by the Radiance Pro and their new ArtisaN product.

With Jim's permission to post here, this is his response to my inquiry:

Viewing Strato K 4:4:4 content on the 5348 would benefit from the extra pixel quality in the encoding Better compression will likely increase fine detail which is truncated away by the DCT Frequency Domain processing for normal content. So, you will likely see more fine detail.

The 5348 input-pipeline is 4:4:4. For 24 Hertz movies from any Strato, the Strato supports 12-bit 4:4:4 output at 24 Hertz, and the Radiance Pro supports 12-bit 4:4:4 input at 24 Hertz. The content is converted in the Radiance Pro input pipeline to 4:2:2 before going to the frame buffer. So still better than the normal 4:2:0 consumer content since Chroma is full resolution vertically, verses normal consumer content that is half-resolution vertically.

One less obvious benefit of the Strato K 4:4:4 source is that the 5348-input pipeline, which is 4:4:4, is where 16:9 content on a 2.40 screen is downscaled to 16:9 width with black side bars. The downscaling benefits from having full Chroma resolution since the additional Chroma resolution of 4:4:4 provides more sample points for the down-scaling algorithm.

Overall, I think you will see a small but noticeable improvement in fine detail with any Radiance Pro. The 5348 already has a very low noise floor with normal consumer content, but the Strato K 4:4:4 by providing a lower noise floor in the content will translate to an even lower noise floor using the 5348 for a slightly lower visual noise floor on the screen.

====

The AritsaN will process 4:4:4 12-bit at full resolution and bit depth.

It will have Darbee for 4K sources. If you like Darbee this will make a difference in 4K source image.

Nearly every movie is 24 Hertz. In ArtisaN 8K Ready, 4k24 content can be received, processed, and output, at full 4:4:4 12-bit resolution.

Whether 4:4:4 verses 4:2:2 processing difference is visible at viewing distance is TBD.

 

[Edgar]

I asked Jim Peterson, the President of Lumagen, if he could comment on how a 4:4:4 signal would be handled by the Radiance Pro and their new ArtisaN product.

With Jim's permission to post here, this is his response to my inquiry:

Viewing Strato K 4:4:4 content on the 5348 would benefit from the extra pixel quality in the encoding Better compression will likely increase fine detail which is truncated away by the DCT Frequency Domain processing for normal content. So, you will likely see more fine detail.

The 5348 input-pipeline is 4:4:4. For 24 Hertz movies from any Strato, the Strato supports 12-bit 4:4:4 output at 24 Hertz, and the Radiance Pro supports 12-bit 4:4:4 input at 24 Hertz. The content is converted in the Radiance Pro input pipeline to 4:2:2 before going to the frame buffer. So still better than the normal 4:2:0 consumer content since Chroma is full resolution vertically, verses normal consumer content that is half-resolution vertically.

One less obvious benefit of the Strato K 4:4:4 source is that the 5348-input pipeline, which is 4:4:4, is where 16:9 content on a 2.40 screen is downscaled to 16:9 width with black side bars. The downscaling benefits from having full Chroma resolution since the additional Chroma resolution of 4:4:4 provides more sample points for the down-scaling algorithm.

Overall, I think you will see a small but noticeable improvement in fine detail with any Radiance Pro. The 5348 already has a very low noise floor with normal consumer content, but the Strato K 4:4:4 by providing a lower noise floor in the content will translate to an even lower noise floor using the 5348 for a slightly lower visual noise floor on the screen.

====

The AritsaN will process 4:4:4 12-bit at full resolution and bit depth.

It will have Darbee for 4K sources. If you like Darbee this will make a difference in 4K source image.

Nearly every movie is 24 Hertz. In ArtisaN 8K Ready, 4k24 content can be received, processed, and output, at full 4:4:4 12-bit resolution.

Whether 4:4:4 verses 4:2:2 processing difference is visible at viewing distance is TBD.

This was the sense I got from discussing with @thrillcat on launch morning last week. Also, love your name!

 

[AlanG]

Here is the answer from MadVR with regard to 4:4:4 with each of their video processors:


Core MK2 without Premium Pack — 4:4:4 input?
Yes, it can — with an important nuance around frame rate. The Core MK2 without the Premium Pack operates with HDMI 2.0 input (18 Gbps), which is sufficient for 4K24 and 4K30 4:4:4 12-bit. Where it falls short is 4K60 4:4:4 12-bit, which requires the higher bandwidth of HDMI 2.1 — and that requires the Premium Pack on the Core MK2. So the answer is yes for 4K24/30 content, and no for 4K60 4:4:4.

All versions of the Extreme — 4:4:4 input?
Here it depends on which generation. The Extreme MK1 and MK2 have HDMI 2.0 input, so they share the same limitation as the base Core MK2: 4K24/30 4:4:4 is fine, but 4K60 4:4:4 is not. The Extreme MK3 has native HDMI 2.1 input (48 Gbps), so it handles 4K60 4:4:4 12-bit without any restriction.

For your Strato K installation specifically:
The good news is that the Strato K's 4K Cinematic content — including its native 4:4:4 titles — is 4K24. That fits comfortably within HDMI 2.0's 18 Gbps, which means every Envy model, including a base Core MK2 without the Premium Pack, will accept and preserve the full 4:4:4 signal from the Strato K with no issues whatsoever.

On maintaining 4:4:4 through the entire chain:
The Envy passes through whatever chroma subsampling it receives — it does not alter it. So if the Strato K sends 4:4:4, the Envy receives 4:4:4 and processes it as such. (The Envy's chroma reconstruction from 4:2:2 to 4:4:4 only applies to content that isn't already 4:4:4 — native 4:4:4 content needs no reconstruction.) The key variable for maintaining 4:4:4 end-to-end is ensuring your source device settings and cable quality support it consistently — the Envy itself is not the limiting factor for the Strato K's signal.

 

[4:4:4]

This was the sense I got from discussing with @thrillcat on launch morning last week. Also, love your name!

Thanks Edgar. I have always dreamed of having a 4:4:4 signal for my home theatre. Didn't know when I chose the forum username in April that the Strato K was going to help make my dream a reality!
My Strato K and 120TB Terra Prime Server arrive next week. I have the JVC DLA-RS4200 (8K-"ish") projector with a Lumagen Radiance Pro currently, and the ArtisaN on order.
Getting close to having a full end-to-end 4:4:4 experience!

 

[by96]

I asked Jim Peterson, the President of Lumagen, if he could comment on how a 4:4:4 signal would be handled by the Radiance Pro and their new ArtisaN product.

With Jim's permission to post here, this is his response to my inquiry:

Viewing Strato K 4:4:4 content on the 5348 would benefit from the extra pixel quality in the encoding Better compression will likely increase fine detail which is truncated away by the DCT Frequency Domain processing for normal content. So, you will likely see more fine detail.

The 5348 input-pipeline is 4:4:4. For 24 Hertz movies from any Strato, the Strato supports 12-bit 4:4:4 output at 24 Hertz, and the Radiance Pro supports 12-bit 4:4:4 input at 24 Hertz. The content is converted in the Radiance Pro input pipeline to 4:2:2 before going to the frame buffer. So still better than the normal 4:2:0 consumer content since Chroma is full resolution vertically, verses normal consumer content that is half-resolution vertically.

One less obvious benefit of the Strato K 4:4:4 source is that the 5348-input pipeline, which is 4:4:4, is where 16:9 content on a 2.40 screen is downscaled to 16:9 width with black side bars. The downscaling benefits from having full Chroma resolution since the additional Chroma resolution of 4:4:4 provides more sample points for the down-scaling algorithm.

Overall, I think you will see a small but noticeable improvement in fine detail with any Radiance Pro. The 5348 already has a very low noise floor with normal consumer content, but the Strato K 4:4:4 by providing a lower noise floor in the content will translate to an even lower noise floor using the 5348 for a slightly lower visual noise floor on the screen.

====

The AritsaN will process 4:4:4 12-bit at full resolution and bit depth.

It will have Darbee for 4K sources. If you like Darbee this will make a difference in 4K source image.

Nearly every movie is 24 Hertz. In ArtisaN 8K Ready, 4k24 content can be received, processed, and output, at full 4:4:4 12-bit resolution.

Whether 4:4:4 verses 4:2:2 processing difference is visible at viewing distance is TBD.

Thank you for asking Jim and for posting his response here!

 

[lujan]

Here is the answer from MadVR with regard to 4:4:4 with each of their video processors:


Core MK2 without Premium Pack — 4:4:4 input?
Yes, it can — with an important nuance around frame rate. The Core MK2 without the Premium Pack operates with HDMI 2.0 input (18 Gbps), which is sufficient for 4K24 and 4K30 4:4:4 12-bit. Where it falls short is 4K60 4:4:4 12-bit, which requires the higher bandwidth of HDMI 2.1 — and that requires the Premium Pack on the Core MK2. So the answer is yes for 4K24/30 content, and no for 4K60 4:4:4.

All versions of the Extreme — 4:4:4 input?
Here it depends on which generation. The Extreme MK1 and MK2 have HDMI 2.0 input, so they share the same limitation as the base Core MK2: 4K24/30 4:4:4 is fine, but 4K60 4:4:4 is not. The Extreme MK3 has native HDMI 2.1 input (48 Gbps), so it handles 4K60 4:4:4 12-bit without any restriction.

For your Strato K installation specifically:
The good news is that the Strato K's 4K Cinematic content — including its native 4:4:4 titles — is 4K24. That fits comfortably within HDMI 2.0's 18 Gbps, which means every Envy model, including a base Core MK2 without the Premium Pack, will accept and preserve the full 4:4:4 signal from the Strato K with no issues whatsoever.

On maintaining 4:4:4 through the entire chain:
The Envy passes through whatever chroma subsampling it receives — it does not alter it. So if the Strato K sends 4:4:4, the Envy receives 4:4:4 and processes it as such. (The Envy's chroma reconstruction from 4:2:2 to 4:4:4 only applies to content that isn't already 4:4:4 — native 4:4:4 content needs no reconstruction.) The key variable for maintaining 4:4:4 end-to-end is ensuring your source device settings and cable quality support it consistently — the Envy itself is not the limiting factor for the Strato K's signal.

Very informative, thanks!

 

[josh]

I'm going to have to go through and move some of the posts above that are NOT really specific to this topic. will do when i have time.

PLEASE let's keep this thread specifically about equipment and settings and signal path that will let a user experience Strato K with 4:4:4 4K Cinematic. No discussion in THIS thread about movie titles or thoughts on Kaleidescape's decisions and design of products. That's welcome in other threads of course.

 

[Edgar]

Thanks Edgar. I have always dreamed of having a 4:4:4 signal for my home theatre. Didn't know when I chose the forum username in April that the Strato K was going to help make my dream a reality!
My Strato K and 120TB Terra Prime Server arrive next week. I have the JVC DLA-RS4200 (8K-"ish") projector with a Lumagen Radiance Pro currently, and the ArtisaN on order.
Getting close to having a full end-to-end 4:4:4 experience!

That’s fantastic! I think that’s a vision we can all get behind. Welcome aboard!